What is the most compelling evidence or argument AGAINST the red pill "theories"?

guhajin · 2017-01-10T05:37:36+00:00

I think a massive dose of skepticism when it comes to the normal narrative and people in general is always a good idea, but I think TRP has 2 major problems.

The constant harping on women's negative behavior does create a certain echo chamber affect. A lot of things cited as shitty female behavior on here are legit, and something you should be aware of, but some of it isn't really about evolutionary psychology specific to women so much as it's just about... shitty human behavior in general. People are assholes. Hardly a revelation.
What some people on TRP seem to absolutely refuse to accept is that there are "good girls" out there, even in 2016. Is finding a woman who is both very loyal and very attractive easy? No. Will you likely be disappointed more than once if that's what you're looking for? Definitely. But.... speaking from experience, they do exist.

But if you go TRP all the way all the time, you will never find her because if you try to plate a genuinely good, relationship oriented girl, you're going to cause her some serious trauma and get a self-fulfilling prophecy of distrust and drama.

Now, if you genuinely don't want a relationship and just wanna go have fun and that's it, then go for it. But if you ever do want something more, TRP can be toxic because - even though doing your own thing and being keyed into all the many red flags about who you date is a good idea - if you take that too far, you just become a paranoid douchebag whose stunted ability to get closer to another human being will be blamed on some concept like hypergamy... when the truth is, you're not "RP af," you've just forgotten how to have a more normal relationship and your healthy skepticism has morphed into something closer to trust issues.

MattyAnon · 2017-01-10T00:29:03+00:00

Anyways I don't need anything on that specifically but basically I just want to challenge my thinking. Get some fresh perspectives and come to my own conclusions. Cheers.

Primarily I would turn this on its head and say : what is the evidence that this misandric blue pill disney-esque society is in any way either honest, or beneficial for men ?

Looking beyond the shallow lies of what people say or hope for, I can see no evidence in the facts of their actions that women are worthy of men's love.

Looking around at all the relationships I know, I see no exceptions to TRP teachings. I know some couples that are temporarily happy (max 3 years). After that I see the man making superhuman sacrifices (including to his own happiness) coupled with endless lying to himself, while his partner or wife complains about him like an ungrateful spoiled child.

The more I looked at the world as it really is, the more of TRP I have come to accept.

Whether it's all true or not..... the fact is that it's at least 90% true, and the blue pill world is at least 90% lies.

GayLubeOil · 2017-01-10T13:07:00+00:00

The most compelling argument against TRP is that no amount of cute 600 word essays can ever transform human dirt into a Alpha diamond.

We create a massive burden of performance in our readers and while anything is possible given the right effort and dedication, most men are destined to die losers.

So in the end what happens is that Betas read TRP get upset and then engage in mental gymnastics to desperately convince themselves of their non existent self improvement. Hence all the Beta backsliding which in reality isn't a backslide but a reality slap affirming the Betas lack of progress.

If you want to test this out sometime try to qualify Alphaness in concrete terms and watch as hundreds of men bash their keyboards in unison arguing that one can be Alpha while simultaneously being physically weaker than a 14 year old girl.

I_Crepe_Bitches · 2017-01-10T03:29:20+00:00

The strongest argument I can think of would come from two relatively unattractive people with lack of better options. I would say most of the guys on TRP want to be in the top 20% or already are - and the women we talk about getting with are top 20% as well.

There are plenty of "happily married couples" who will preach your ear off about how true love is possible but in reality most of them are just unattractive or overweight people who have unknowingly accepted settling.

Others may point to relationships of grandparents or older folks who were raised in a different time as an example of how things can work. My take on this is that culturally, men and women were raised differently back then. Couple that with the temptations and influx of information provided by the internet and social media and it's just no longer a realistic possibility in my opinion.

IVIaskerade · 2017-01-10T00:44:57+00:00

if women were hard wired to be extremely selective, the liberation of women should have not seen much rise at all in the sexual exploits of women right?

Where did this idea come from?

Women's selectiveness is a direct result of the risks of getting pregnant. Once reliable contraception was available, why wouldn't they fuck those alpha males their biological imperative is screaming at them to jump on?

2comment · 2017-01-10T02:06:57+00:00

Obviously nature isn't a perfect system but if women were hard wired to be extremely selective, the liberation of women should have not seen much rise at all in the sexual exploits of women right?

You are confusing selectivity with partner count. The 80/20 rule shows how women are selective, towards what type of man they gravitate to. They could lust for and fuck 100s of top 20%s but zero bottom 80%ers, it's still selective in that way. Similiarly, a virgin that accepts the first arranged marriage her parents make for her to some low-end schlub 20-something janitor isn't being selective, just obedient and chaste.

Civilization put marriage in place to promote itself; continually breed the next generation and any civilization where the top 20% of men are happy but 80% are not, is simply at danger internally from both rebellion and collapse. All the rules/lockdowns on female chastity, etc (still seen in Muslim countries) come from this impetus. Here, they're forcing pair-offs between low-value men with low value women, medium to medium, etc in general. It's not nature but actually against nature as low and medium value women would naturally try to get impregnated with higher value offspring.

The sexual liberation of women came about when they got encouraged to get jobs in the marketplace (compete with men), laws got revamped to include no-fault divorce/alimoney (steal from men), welfare was instituted (government becomes the provider) and the release of modern birth control pill (1960 and officially restricted to married women, 1972 is when all citizens could get access to it) -- and it really only had the effect of letting women having their cake and eat it too in their original sexual strategy.

In other words, not only did they go back to their original nature, but the newly found governmental assistance and financial freedom decreased the need for a beta bux in their life and amplified the AF portion of their natural instinct to begin with - AF/bb.

Tressful · 2017-01-10T02:58:09+00:00

"That women don't want an asshole jerk as a partner - they want someone nice, caring, and loving."

Women

full_package · 2017-01-10T05:28:27+00:00

Look, TRP is a collection of knowledge that works. It's fluid, not set in stone.

It's directed at practical use, so the question it answers first is "How" not "Why". We got pretty good at "How", because there are countless men that attest to its effectiveness here daily.

Some "Why" explanations touch human evolution, but these attempts have little science behind them. Good luck doing a proper psychological research on TRP topic in today's college.

As for echo chamber, of course. But again, we share experiences that work. And people often disagree with each other here. Some views are controversial, questionable and even conflicting within the community itself.

Everything I read here I take with a grain of salt. When I disagree with conclusions, I still try to understand the context where the poster is coming from. E.g. anger in some posts comes from lies, inequality and hypocrisies he faced before. Exaggerations in other posts are attempt to overcompensate political correctness of the outside world.

wanderer779 · 2017-01-10T14:45:26+00:00

If you just stick to the main points on the sidebar it is solid. When you come into the comments section a lot of it is way off-base but that's to be expected.

As other people have said a lot of TRPers seem to not be able to conceive of there being good women out there. One time I commented that having a good mother was an advantage and was downvoted. I've had the same experience when I've disagreed with guys on here saying women aren't capable in the workplace. If you get off here and read elsewhere you will see women accomplishing a lot of things but these guys would rather sit in an echo chamber yelling about examples of mediocre women they encounter. Probably a lot of it is because they are mediocre dudes, otherwise they wouldn't be here. And some of it is because mediocre women do get a pass in the workplace which is annoying, but that doesn't mean there aren't exceptional women out there who deserve accolades.

The biggest complaint I have with TRP is that it doesn't have any answers for society. Guys here just want to "enjoy the decline". What do we want society to be? What would the role of women be? We don't know. Of course TRP never said they did.

I could probably keep going but I'll stop now. I have a ton of problems with TRP, but I'll keep coming here to get a break from the pro-woman, anti-man BS I hear everywhere else.

AvengerSentinel · 2017-01-10T17:47:42+00:00

Kudos to the threadstarter for asking a phenomenal question.

Things I disagree with regarding the TRP...

The notion that men don't have the ability to be as duplicitous and conniving as women.
The notion that there aren't loyal, family-oriented women out there.
The idea that women are somehow inferior to men, or that they don't have the potential to perform phenomenally in the workplace
The idea that every single marriage is a God-awful ordeal (I think most marriages suck, but there are exceptions)

gothem_ffaja · 2017-01-09T23:43:36+00:00

TRP ist basically only a part of evolutionary psychology. Its strength is also it's weakness. Without no doubt human behavior is controlled by this evolotional mechanisms. But humans are much more complex beings,which is also proved by other fields of psychology. And they seem to be as plausible as TRP. The biggest mistake and argument against TRP is how people apply it. They try to explain everything that happens between men and women in the TRP ways. Buts it's actually not TRP-Theory problem.

MikeAlphaGolf · 2017-01-09T23:44:49+00:00

Have a look at r/PurplePillDebate

EDDbDG · 2017-01-10T04:09:45+00:00

I think TRP is its own weakness. The collective taste in women I've seen on TRP is the stacy white cheerleader types. These women are conventionally attractive and on top of the SMV scale for women objectively. So can you really be surprised when they turn out to be vapid, self obsessed hypergamic whores?

Of course, this is true to some degree for all women. But it's a sliding scale. There would be a lot less posts on TRP if some of these guys just developed a type in women that wasn't so mainstream.

beginner_ · 2017-01-10T07:07:17+00:00

Of course their is a huge echo chamber. TRP is a toolbox. Take what you need and deem useful, discard the rest. The basic theory holds and is confirmed by science if you look at the raw data.

Posters in the anger phase will always be the majority. You come here, you read a bit, get some anger, read more, get more angry, get real-life confirmation and then start posting. After some time you kind of come her less often, post less...You get the picture. That doesn't make the basics wrong.

Again it's a toolbox and just because some 18 year old kiddies post about how awesome cold showers are and you are a pussy loser if you don't do it, you can safely ignore it while it doesn't make the basics untrue.

SexistFlyingPig · 2017-01-10T13:30:46+00:00

Don't ask the echo chamber if you're in an echo chamber. I'm afraid you're going to have to apply your own critical thinking skills on this one.

You're not getting fresh perspectives and coming to your own conclusions with this post. You're trying to get other people to distill their thinking so that you can adopt it as your own. You're actively avoiding thinking for yourself on this one.

mrpoopistan · 2017-01-10T15:15:30+00:00

I don't necessarily want to argue against the Red Pill view. I'd rather discuss how we got here.

What we think of as the Blue Pill mentality is an artifact of a specific time in human history when men, by simple virtue of their economic status versus women, were in charge. This arrangement emerged with the first mass agricultural societies around 5,000 B.C., and it was accompanied by a closing of the gap between the number of available men and women over the next 7,000 years.

Also, stable and successful societies tend to be ones that promote monogamy and single-mate pairing. It's not an accident that Protestant, European countries emerged to dominate the world even though they were behind the curve on acquiring many major inventions (for example, the printing press and gun powder).

In that world, men and women were expected to pair off and be loyal. Didn't always work out that way, but the legalities were ridiculously stacked in the man's favor if the woman went of the rails. Likewise, life was pretty short, so a lot of women were dead by the time they arrived at The Wall, thus reducing one of the most common causes of crazy chick bullshit. Provisioning was also tough, and it depended heavily on working within the system.

Fast forward to the modern world. The biggest invention since the printing press hits: The birth control pill. Factory work gives way to automation and outsourcing. Divorce on demand becomes law, alongside rules that are suddenly ridiculously tilted toward women. Women enter the workforce in large numbers. Suddenly, we live in a world in which is vastly easier than it used to be to be a single woman and significantly harder to be a single man.

Society has quickly reverted to what we see in pre-agricultural societies. Society is more accepting of random fooling around, and that means it's springtime for alphas and winter for betas and gammas.

Overall, I think the Blue Pill world was an accident of a specific set of circumstances in human history. As we went from emerging agricultural societies the whole way to Industrial Revolution, most of the wins accumulated to societies that had an expectation of monogamy.

The events of the last 50 or so years have torn that apart.

The problem is that a lot of men are stilling trying to live in the world of their grandfathers. They think they'll get a job, meet a girl, settle down, be happy, and have children. The economic basis of that system, however, just isn't there anymore.

It's now the case that a woman gets a job, meets lots of guys, moves into a place, meets a particular guy, has a kid, (maybe settles down for a couple years), the guy thinks he has it made in the shade and starts behaving like his grandpa, and then all hell breaks loose.

The main advantage of TRP is that you're simply waking guys up to the fact that the game is no longer being played by the same set of rules it once was.

Guys are showing up for a baseball game, and the minute they hit the field a rugby match breaks out. In that scenario, you better figure out pretty fast that it's time to fight, or you're gonna get your ass kicked. Instead, most guys sit there crying, "But, I thought we were playing baseball."

quicklogaccount · 2017-01-10T16:00:23+00:00

mmmm.
Your usage of quotes signals you're not quite sure of what you are asking.

RP offers models, which you might call theories, for some otherwise non explained behaviors and feelings of women and men, and it also offers alternative models to some explained behaviors as well.

But anyways, some stuff I've forgotten, understood wrong, misunderstood or have seen people misunderstanding along the way are:

Women don't like being held accountable, but neither do men;
Very few women embrace the whole concept of AWALT, but the absence of one trait doesn't imply in the absence of another;
Smart CC ridden women will make some high achieving beta men pretty happy once they hit the wall;
Being reactionary is stupid. The "tame" women of yore with strongly repressed sexuality wouldn't make anything better for beta men, they'd be frustrated all the same;
The "difficulty to bond" CC ridden women experience isn't an artificial consequence of some technology-assisted behavior. It's the natural consequence of their natural behavior.
Feminism isn't that stupid, nor obsolete. But unfortunately these days we can't treat otherwise because it insists it must be understood by men as a single concept, so the way we approach it is good enough;
Acting abusive in a relationship prevents people, not just women, with certain personality traits to leave. And it sux.

Now, to answer you:

if women were hard wired to be extremely selective, the liberation of women should have not seen much rise at all in the sexual exploits of women right?

Nope. That would be true if they were hardwired monogamists, but they are not. The consequence fits the model.

RampantPornAddiction · 2017-01-10T23:03:16+00:00

Not the theories, but the bullshit field reports are fucking stupid. The success stories are all about HB8's or higher. Rarely will you see someone say they landed a 6 for the first time, and explain how TRP played a role. After browsing the sub one might be left with the impression that men go from obese shutins to scoring hotties with nothing in between.

SkorchZang · 2017-01-10T07:31:57+00:00

If you're wise, you use the echo chamber as best you can to get better. It's an opportunity, not a debate club.

Title	What is the most compelling evidence or argument AGAINST the red pill "theories"?
Author	[deleted]
Upvotes	45
Comments	67
Date	January 9, 2017 11:28 PM UTC (9 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/askTRP
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/asktrp/comments/5n18l8/what_is_the_most_compelling_evidence_or_argument/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/askTRP/what-is-the-most-compelling-evidence-or-argument.182178 https://theredarchive.com/post/182178

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