Deconstructing the Masculine Ideal of "Confidence"

boomboxspence · 2022-04-03T17:29:41+00:00

Yeah I agree. I think people say "just be confident" is a way of telling men to shut up and get over it. I never hear people say that to women, they don't get told they need to change but that other people need to change for them because they're perfect the way they are. It annoys me because I am a very shy guy who barely even speaks

rammo123 · 2022-04-04T07:36:17+00:00

You haven't touched on the problem that the difference between confidence and creepiness is often measured in desirability, as much as women like to ignore that unfortunate truth.

Then_Election_7412 · 2022-04-03T19:32:25+00:00

People pretend confidence means something like self esteem, but in practice it's just a proxy for masculine gender performativity.

For instance, consider this study: https://www.pnas.org/doi/10.1073/pnas.1508932113. In short, men who "manspread" were perceived as more confident and attractive than men who didn't. Manspreading, of course, doesn't indicate anything about a man's self esteem, but what it does do is act as a signifier of masculinity by establishing dominance and laying a broad claim to physical space. Or asking for permission to kiss: although explicitly trying to learn someone's boundaries has nothing to do with self esteem (arguably, it even indicates higher than average self esteem), it gets coded as lacking confidence.

And, conversely, a man whose self esteem is high enough to be an out bisexual doesn't get any "confidence" points, because he deviates from the male gender role.

There are plenty of men who are deemed bad dating prospects because they don't act "confident enough," but if they acted exactly the same way but as a woman or gay man, no one would question their self esteem. What someone means when they say someone isn't confident is that he isn't masculine enough for heterosexual relationships.

But given the current zeitgeist, we're uncomfortable telling men they need to act more manly in order to be considered a reasonable romantic prospect, so we invent personal flaws like a lack of self esteem to blame the guy for his struggles. And it plays into an essentialist view of masculinity that says any man who's mentally healthy would perform a particular, narrow version of masculinity, so if he doesn't, it must mean he's not mentally healthy.

RockmanXX · 2022-04-03T15:04:31+00:00

I've said this like 20 times already, "Confidence" is a proxy indicator for Masculinity. Its not politically correct for liberals to openly admit that most Women desire Masculine men because that destroys feminism's bullshit narrative on Masculinity. When someone says you need to be "confident", they're just telling you to be more manly. What is manly? Being Strong Emotionally, Physically and Materially. Its not rocket science.

Wouldn't a more human, more genuine guy be preferable overall?

Yeah, and women would like that genuine guy wrapped in a masculine dressing.

Wouldn't a few cracks in that mask serve as proof that he's not an emotionless robot

There is such a thing called undesirable emotions.

Being good-natured and caring is antithetical to confidence in many ways, since good-natured and caring people are going to worry about hurting others, making them automatically less confident

WTF are you talking about!? A confident man would be confident that he would not hurt anyone! A man sure of his abilities can find ways to care for others in a way a that a man lacking confidence cannot. I've made the observation that Men who are at the bottom of dominance hierarchy(ie Male Feminists) are actually some of most aggressive, peacocking, uncompromising, unfriendly men out there because they are so afraid of losing the little status they have. It's actually men that have had quite a bit of success and luck in their lives that are kinder to other Men.

It seems extremely unfair and unrealistic to expect that of anyone, even moreso when its a gendered double standard.

Yes and what are you gonna do about it? Genuine Question.

Why should he have any confidence?

As men age, they emotionally mature, that includes becoming more Stoic. They also become materially attractive, and women in their late 20s and early 30s are looking for a Stable Provider Male and a Stoic man that has taken care of himself is just what they need.

are not really giving advice in good faith and simply want him to shut up and stop complaining about being lonely,
they are lacking the empathy to understand how difficult that is to do.
because it implies this entire system exists to help preserve the female upper hand

Preaching to the Choir, buddy. We've already made countless posts talking about the power women have in the mate selection process and the general lack of compassion for Men who can't cut it.

Blauwpetje · 2022-04-07T17:06:38+00:00

I think it is partly biological, but the destruction of all respect for men since about 1970 has made female demands, and maybe especially on that point, ridiculously high. It also brings men into a vicious circle: when you've been single for a while, where do you get the confidence that you're attractive at all? You're not Moses beating water out of a dry stone. And combined with the MeToo-ideology it's a terrible double-bind: men must be 100% confident and at the same time keep 24/7 in their backhead that the women they're attracted to may abhor every hasty or impulsive approach.

Epipha-tree · 2022-04-03T12:10:17+00:00

I'm basically the guy you described, having been rejected a lot and lacking confidence. That is changing though I'm still not at the point where I'm good with women. I think confidence is a trait of masculinity and I think it is a good one. I don't think that there is any double standard there as it is what a lot of women find attractive in men, and that's no real fault of their own, it just is. I think the problem you're highlighting is due to the lack of masculinity being seen in a positive light and the lack of father figures and role models. Where male 'initiation', spaces and roles in society where men can earn their confidence has been all but eradicated. What I'm trying to say is I don't think confidence should be abandoned in masculinity but fostered. I think every guy has the ability to be confident but it needs to be earned and wrought through challenge. This approach I think would solve a lot of issues and not just in dating but especially in dating. How it would be achieved though I have no idea, but I think that allowing male only spaces would be a good start.

a-man-from-earth · 2022-04-03T11:02:03+00:00

this idea that men have to be extremely confident and show absolutely no signs of doubt or shyness at all times

Sounds like a strawman to me. It's hyperbolic. Most people do not expect that to such a degree.

Mr-X1 · 2022-04-03T12:28:14+00:00

Part 1.

Of course if a guy is visibly nervous, sweating, wringing his hands, and barely stuttering out his sentences, that isn't going to make him very attractive to most women.

Quite the understatement.

I feel like its not just a matter of it being good enough to not be the sweaty nervous guy and adopt a reasonable level of confidence, but of expecting men to almost be like the complete opposite of that.

Yes. How else are you going to be useful to a woman? Not saying that this is how it ought to be ethically, but think about it from a pragmatic standpoint.

So: What does a woman gain from being with "you"? What does she lose? Will you fix problems when shit hits the fan, could you protect her and her children? What about when women "model your mind", as people are apt to do, how does them being around you make them feel (especially when it matters most)? Do you feed into their "neuroticisms", do you "cause" undesired feelings in various circumstances etc? And how do you make her look in front of her friends (very important to most women and even girls etc)?

Also, consider the social skill angle. Just like how it might be embarrassing, annoying etc to be around somebody who is not on your level, intellectually, you being "awkward", projecting a lack of confidence or mere mediocrity etc, might not be that great to the average woman and might just be plain unattractive. Why should she not take somebody on her level, or even a higher level, if she can?

For that matter, why even take such a man to begin with, if there are tons of other more advantageous options?

Even if it was totally natural for me, I'm not sure I would want to be a swaggering cocksure bro. Whenever I see other guys acting that way it makes me want to roll my eyes.

I wonder how many random dudes you are just judging like this and what this might say about you to yourself if you were to take a step back. Maybe many other people feel the urge to roll their eyes when they think of your ideals etc, including especially many women? Just some food for thought, no offense intended.

Either possibility seems a bit creepy, doesn't it?

No? In the latter case, people having adapted to their environments is not necessarily creepy. And even if it was, I think the concept of victim blaming might be applicable here. Furthermore, people that do not get basic social stuff and who are socially inadaptive are often considered creepy and unattractive.

Wouldn't a more human, more genuine guy be preferable overall?

Think about it. Why? For what purpose? Did you ever question this?

And who says you are really more genuine, etc? Really, or is it that you behave like you do because that is easy for you given your dispositions, especially your physical embodiment etc, and maybe in a very important sense you are just like those other people? And not particularly genuine either?

Furthermore:

Wouldn't a more human,

They are perfectly human. This is how most humans are. Going by statistics, they are more normal (and in a sense maybe consequently more "human" pfft) than people like "you". And lastly, no need to dehumanize more traditionally masculine men. That is already too common in the West (and in a different way virtually everywhere else).

Being good-natured and caring is antithetical to confidence in many ways,

No? Wtf. Wtf.

since good-natured and caring people are going to worry about hurting others, making them automatically less confident.

This does not follow. You can easily be assertive etc while being empathic. You can also often do what you have to do, knowing that this does not necessarily make you a bad person. Knowing you made your choices with awareness taking everything or at least most relevant things into account, as far as that was possible, is generally enough.

Furthermore, there is something like second order confidence (this idea might be useful for many people so I throw it in here). You might not be confident in guaranteeing a "positive" outcome in this or that specific case, but that does not matter much if you "play the long game". What matters is that, after a decent cost-benefit analysis, you are playing your cards well enough consistently enough (if you still want to be in the game that is), and that you are confident in knowing that, even if this or that situation does not work out, you at least will be OK anyways.

Maybe you also want to google "outcome independence".

But I suppose that's just it: good-natured and caring are not desirable adjectives for men.

They are desirable if the man is in control of them and channels them in socially appropriate ways. Including focusing them on their partner in the context of romance for example and not other women (lmao). Else also, why even be with you? You are going to be "kind" to anybody (or at least any woman you find attractive enough etc) anyways.

But at the same time, I don't expect women to be wellsprings of idiotic confidence either.

Men and women as groups are different from each other. It is usually not a woman's role to provide for you, fix significant troubles for you or to protect you especially physically. So confidence in a woman is less important for most men than other things. Especially if compared to physical factors, if you want a partner whose offspring with you has a chance of reproducing as well.

It seems to me like women can get away with being shy a lot more than men can because lacking confidence is seen as unmanly. But who decided that?

Men generally want women more than men want women, so they get to decide (at least right now in the West). And men with significant physical and mental advantages have literally no obvious self-interested based reason to be against this stuff. It works in their favor.

It seems extremely unfair

"Nike" might also think it is unfair that you prefer those other cheaper but better shoes. But does this matter?

People do not really care about such matters, generally. Else btw the world would be completely different.

If you are completely honest with yourself, btw, you might find that you have areas where you perceive yourself to be advantaged or different and act accordingly in ways we could easily see as unfair too.

E.g. you might be less attracted to women whose brains seem to be less "blooming", even if or when that is ultimately not their own fault.

and unrealistic to expect that of anyone,

If somebody only wants a chocolate cake or else they will not buy a cake and they are okay with that then so be it. And even if they whine about there not being enough chocolate cakes, they might still prefer going hungry over eating that blueberry cake. Not much you can do about this but maybe calling them out for being noisy brats.

even moreso when its a gendered double standard.

Not relevant to the issue of realism. Especially obviously not relevant if you believe in this basic axiom:

Men and women are different.

Consider the perspective of a guy that, through no fault of his own (he isn't creepy to women, socially ignorant, or completely spineless) got told nothing but "no" over and over again by girls he asked out in high school, the pattern carrying through to college and his mid-20's. Why should he have any confidence?

Why would any given random woman care about this guy and his issues? Women generally do not care about us men in that way. Many women would even gladly have us die fighting for some total bullshit somewhere else that is not even directly related to them. Just for some momentary feeling that having played a part there -verbally...- might give them.

Why should he have any confidence?

Who cares? Though he might be like: How was I, what beliefs do I have, how do I come across, what opportunities to change and improve or interact did I forgo and why? Are there ways to come across as confident regardless of how I feel, to train my mind differently, or to get into situations where this matters less? Etc.

There's no objective or logical reason for him to believe he has any kind of a shot when history has shown he doesn't

Depends on what he was doing. Just because somebody never managed to deadlift a certain weight does not mean he will always be incapable of doing so. Maybe he just always used the same shitty weightlifting program. Seeing this and resolving to do something better, now finally, he might conceivably have some hope of ultimately reaching his goal.

And when he explains this dilemma to people

Frankly speaking: The vast majority of people have no significant insight with regards to virtually anything (unless maybe you are still a kid; and most of those insights they are not capable of presenting in a way that really makes a difference to most people that need them). So you should not expect much from them.

Plus, their responses have to be seen in a social context: You are ruining the mood or make people feel uncomfortable, your complaints might provide fodder for potential conflict either by offending somebody or by giving people the opportunity to white-knight etc, so many people will just search for some random shit to squash such potential social issues, while people with advice that is not politically correct tend not to be idiotic enough to just blurt said advice out, etc etc.

Dismissing his concerns like this are just going to make him trust people even less, ironically withdrawing inward even more and perpetuating the cycle.

His own problem based on his own reactions. You can be like that, and people will like you less for it and that's it. I say this as somebody that has sympathy for the plight of such men (why else would I even bother writing this huge response).

Eventually he has etc

Oh yes. Something like this.

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