Questions for Men's Rights from a lesbian, female-identified ally

guywithaccount · 2014-04-12T23:09:56+00:00

Can you imagine a female teacher bringing this mindset into a classroom

Imagine it? Many of us have experienced it, especially those of us who've been to college.

Can you give me some examples of how female allies can help prevent male discrimination?

It's pretty simple, really. Call out misandry, unfair treatment of men, and double standards. As someone else noted, when men stand up for themselves it's viewed as chauvinism or self-interest; when women stand up for men it frustrates the bigots and makes everyone else stop and think.

What are some major double standards you've witnessed, when you've wished that a woman would have spoken up or done something to address the situation?

Oh, man. The thought of trying to list them all is intimidating. And frankly, a lot of them wound sound petty if I did; there are men who have suffered great injustices, but for the rest of us, it's more like the death of a thousand cuts. I've heard feminists compare misogyny to background radiation; misandry is like that, except that complaining about misogyny is socially acceptable, but complaining about misandry makes people treat you like you're wearing a "RAPE IS FUN" t-shirt, with "bitches be hoes" written on smaller letters on the back.

If you read this sub for long enough, you'll have tons of examples, both large and petty.

Would you be able to name a few role models who have stood up against the mainstream to champion men's rights? (Like law enforcement, judges, etc)

So, like, traditional authority figures? Don't know any offhand. Feminism is an institution with significant political power; anyone who might be in the public eye generally knows which side their bread is buttered on.

rbrockway · 2014-04-13T01:25:20+00:00

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cuddle_rapist · 2014-04-12T22:44:55+00:00

•Can you give me some examples of how female allies can help prevent male discrimination?

If your looking for intersectionality, work with youth homless in your area. Many LGBTQ+ youth end up homeless and in great danger. It's very rewarding and will put you in touch with your local community activists, that work on social sevices issues.

typhonblue · 2014-04-13T04:02:21+00:00

You're not an ally. That's the feminist caste system.

If you advocate for men's rights, you're a men's rights advocate full stop.

LambsandLions · 2014-04-12T21:55:50+00:00

Female voices are extremely important to the men's right movement. When a man speaks up about men's rights he is a misogynist or a whiner or a sign the patriarchy is backfiring. When a woman speaks up for men's rights people actually start listening and thinking about the issues. If you want to help just speak up when you see misandry. Just having another voice out there is important. If you want to do more look into groups in your area or think about starting a group.

Black_caped_man · 2014-04-12T21:45:22+00:00

Can you give me some examples of how female allies can help prevent male discrimination?

What do you mean by a female ally? You can talk about it, you can bring it up, if you have been hanging around here you are sure to be aware of quite a few things that are discriminating towards men. Now I don't mean to be a walking billboard, people hate that kind of person, well, most people. I mean to casually bring up some interesting subjects when appropriate in discussion or everyday conversation. Just drop a piece here and there without being preachy and people will start to notice these things more.

What are some major double standards you've witnessed, when you've wished that a woman would have spoken up or done something to address the situation?

I have seen men being openly beaten by women in the street and nobody bats an eye. I have been held responsible for the negative actions of those that carry my gender/sex. It even went so far as to make me seriously contemplate suicide or just giving in and becoming an "evil monster" like those whose actions I was made responsible for. These things have appeared in discussions and the like and rarely have I heard either a woman or a man call it out.

Would you be able to name a few role models who have stood up against the mainstream to champion men's rights? (Like law enforcement, judges, etc)

Not at the top of my head right now no. I have heard stories of some judge or other who seemed to have unclouded eyes in some cases. I'm sure there are others here with more accurate information.

Mind if I ask how you found this place, what made you interested in our side of the story?

2014-04-12T23:50:28+00:00

As for what you can do, just do your best to call out misandry. A relatively simple method is "gender-switching". If you hear something being joked about or looked down on which if it was a woman, would be treated differently, then point it out.

This video for example shows a talk show in which a group of women sit around laughing and joking about a man who had his genitals cut off by his deranged wife. Can you imagine for a second a group of men on national TV joking about a guy who cut off his wife's labia and clitoris? Absolute fucking anarchy if that happened, but men are seen as fair game because we are, by and large, seen as guilty and dispensable.

In a similar vein, google "male circumcision" and go on wikipedia. Then stay on wikipedia and type in "female circumcision". Notice how the first one leads to a page titled "circumcision" which is described as a medical procedure, whereas the second one leads to "female genital mutilation" which is framed as inhumane. This is of course ignoring cases where it might be medically necessary.

There's a million and one examples in society of where men have it worse. That's not to pretend that women don't have it bad in a lot of areas because they definitely do, the problem for MRAs right now is that the argument goes as such:

Non-MRA: women have societal disadvantage
MRA: men also have societal disadvantages
Non-MRA: women have more societal disadvantages so your issues are invalid

What should of course happen is that we, as humans, shouldn't be dividing ourselves by gender and only rooting for our own "side", we should be focused on leveling the playing field in all areas, regardless of which sex has the advantage.

2014-04-13T03:15:27+00:00

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YetAnotherCommenter · 2014-04-13T07:43:52+00:00

I live openly as a lesbian, and I find that some people (male and female) will sometimes automatically assume that I am a certain type of angry man-hating feminist.

Its really unfortunate that Radical Second Wave Feminism's "Political Lesbianism" thing became kind of the default public image of lesbians... the misandric clamhurt legbearded water-buffalo "lesbians" who don't really want to have sex with other women but just claim to be a lesbian as a gesture of "rejecting men."

They really are an insult to actual lesbians. What's even worse is that this kind of radfem tends to be treated as an "official scholarly voice"/historian/interpreter for lesbians as a whole. How much does society know about actual lesbians and how much is just spoon-fed to us by radical feminists who don't really love women but just hate men?

Anyway, that's another subject. I just want to say that if you ladies ever attempt to kick out the political lesbians from your spaces, you'll have my moral support (I admit that's not much but not being a lesbian myself I can't really help you much).

Can you give me some examples of how female allies can help prevent male discrimination?

Speak out against it when you encounter it. As you are a woman, your voice will tend to get a more sympathetic hearing when you discuss gender issues (since society in general will tend to assume any male voice that isn't snivellingly radfem is acting out of sinister motives). Talk about it, write about it, tell people about the unfairness of it and make them think. Individual actions are driven by ideas inside individual minds, pervasive patterns of individual actions come from ideas held in common by large numbers of individuals. Challenge the ideas and the pattern will weaken.

Given you are a lesbian, writing specifically about the issue of misandry within the lesbian community would also be an interesting and invaluable contribution. I know that most lesbians don't hate men (they just simply don't want to screw them, which is okay), but those radfem "political lesbians" are a cancer and if you write against them you'll be doing a favor both to actual lesbians and opponents of misandry generally.

I don't have an answer to your other two questions, I'm afraid.

Black_caped_man · 2014-04-12T21:02:55+00:00

i think there are many double standards faced by both women and men, and probably by lesbians too, idk

i think feminists have a point sometimes, but more often than not that point is balanced perfectly by a male version of the same thing that feminists just fail to see. "stop violence against women" is a prime example

i cant stand the battle of the sexes we have going on here in the west, and imo it is government created, institutionalised, and beyond the point of no return. instead of co-operation we have a pathetic squabble

i think that gender just should not be an issue, not mens rights, not womens rights, just rights. but perhaps that is an unrealistic ideal, as frankly i think males and females generally are different .... so perhaps the conspiracy theory - that it is government meddling - is wrong, and we are just witnessing the fall-out from a society with an unstructured approach to dating and mating; people get hurt, people get jaded, people cant get laid, and they blame to system, or just the opposite sex as a whole. who knows?

sorry im just rambling

double-happiness · 2014-04-13T01:14:05+00:00

Would you be able to name a few role models who have stood up against the mainstream to champion men's rights?

Some great gender-busting (often androgynous) men in popular culture:

Little Richard
David Bowie
Freddy Mercury
Leigh Bowery
Iggy Pop
Lou Reed
Andy Warhol
Prince

squee_22 · 2014-04-13T00:02:17+00:00

Can you give me some examples of how female allies can help prevent male discrimination?

Do Exactly what you are doing here. Speak out and make it unacceptable for people to have such a double standard. When people talk about guys raping girls as their default example of this crime, don't be afraid to say, "Men get raped too, and some women are rapists aswel"

What are some major double standards you've witnessed, when you've wished that a woman would have spoken up or done something to address the situation?

The whole rape thing is the biggest one that pisses me off, but also the default for custody battles to favour the mother, and the 77% myth being perpetuated in the media. The "Slut walk" double standard bugs me too. If I walked into a gay bar wearing a thong, and got a cat call, no women would call that wrong, but if a women walks into a bar wearing a tube top and short shorts, and gets the same treatment, she says she has the right to dress how she wants without harassment. Workplace dress codes also seem to be much more lax with women than with men.

Would you be able to name a few role models who have stood up against the mainstream to champion men's rights? (Like law enforcement, judges, etc)

I can't think of any

SilencingNarrative · 2014-04-13T02:03:39+00:00

Simply bear conscious witness, in your day to day life. This will lead you to be able to remind people of the truth when they try to gloss over it. But pick your moments carefully, as taking on sacred cows will draw fire, unless you really know what you are doing.

The dominant social narratives are what make all discrimination and marginalization possible. Without conscious effort, those narratives will direct your attention away from our cultures double standards and slurs against.

For example, the Obama admin, when reporting how many innocent civilians we kill in Afghanistan, counts any male of military age (18 or older) as an enemy combatant. This allows them to understate how many innocent they are killing.

I first learned this while watching the daily show one day. I bring it up every time someone tries to tell me that Obama is a conducting the war on terror better than bush was. If I had not been bearing witness to how man are deemed to society to be less deserving of compassion than women are, I would have quickly forgotten that the Obama admin had that policy.

As Malcolm X put it, if you are not careful when you read the newspaper, it will have you thinking the American blacks have been victimizing whites, for the most part, and not vice versa (I don't have his exact words handy, but that was the gist).

looked up the quote: "If you are not careful, the newspapers will have you hating the people being oppressed, and loving the people who are doing the oppressing." I don't mean to imply that men are morally superior to women here by quoting this, I believe men and women both lack compassion for men and boys.

KRosen333 · 2014-04-13T03:35:04+00:00

I live openly as a lesbian, and I find that some people (male and female) will sometimes automatically assume that I am a certain type of angry man-hating feminist.

I find that is true of a lot of gays - my brother is gay, but he's def a man. 99.9% of the stuff men face, he faces too. I have trouble getting him to go to the doctor (jokes on him, I still don't go, that means I'm winning! cough cough)

I'm sorry that people make horrible assumptions about you. :( that isn't fun.

Denying or minimizing crimes against men is so incredibly destructive to our culture as a whole.

Denying or minimizing crimes against anyone is. It sucks. It's why people are SHOCKED to hear that, while jews were the majority of those affected in the Holocaust, they were by far not the only ones affected - in fact, some smaller groups were actually completely 100% wiped out. It isn't that people are going around saying jews are the only one - I think its that nobody really talks about the smaller groups.

Can you give me some examples of how female allies can help prevent male discrimination?

mmm... The idea of an 'ally' scares me - you shouldn't be an ally - just be who you are. If you don't think it's right to do certain things, that doesn't make you an ally, that makes you you - owning who you are is the first step. If your words come from being an ally, rather than being who you are, they are not true.

I'm not a gay ally, but my brother is gay, and I'll gut anyone who tries to physically hurt him. Yeah, I'm somehow more pro gay rights than my brother is, but that doesn't mean I'm an ally in my head - it just means that is who I am.

Idk. I guess in my head, "don't be an ally - just be you" makes more sense to me.

lordslag · 2014-04-13T03:51:03+00:00

Here are the major double standards that men want rectified:

The Paper Abortion for Men. - If deciding not to be a parent after the act of sex is okay for women, then it's okay for men too; equal is equal.

Equal Parenting Laws. - 50% automatic custody except in extreme cases. You both made your bed, lay in it TOGETHER.

Eliminating or forcing women to sign up for the draft.

Gender Equal Sentencing Laws

Gender Equal Funding Laws

Gender Equal Physical Requirements Laws - The requirements are what they are because you have to be able to pull an average 175lb person out of an inferno, and little 110 pound Patricia can't. It's not sexism, it's physical reality.

Elimination of VAWA for it's violation of men's 14th Amendment Rights.

Elimination of the pay gap myth. - No business would EVER hire men if this was true so as to maximize profits. The formula for determining the "77 cents" myth is laughably simplistic and doesn't take into account the different decisions men and women make.

Gender Equal Divorce Laws and Enforcement

Anonymity for the Accused Laws - Men are simply RUINED by the mere accusation of any sexual offense, convicted or not. Yet, accusers, who are mostly women are anonymous, but the accused who are mostly men are immediately revealed to the public. Disgusting. We must live in fear of a woman merely POINTING at us and uttering some syllables

Men's Studies courses in all Universities, or the Elmination of Women's Studies

Men's Domestic Violence and Abuse Shelters

Right to Genital Integrity for Male Babies.

Stop medicating boys in schools.

Stop painting all men as potential rapists/child molesters. - "Teach men not to rape." assumes that men are rapists by default. It would be like, "Teach women not to be golddiggers." or "Teach women not to falsely accuse men." It's the premise of the statement that's sexist, not the goal which is noble: To stop rape/golddiggin/false accusations.

These are not all the double standards, but they're the major ones. The others are minor by comparison and can be dealt with later.

TheCameraLady · 2014-04-13T09:39:14+00:00

I'm a lesbian female ally too.

Where do you live? <3

justcallmeaddie · 2014-04-13T11:18:53+00:00

Please stop thinking of yourself as an "ally"

Your voice matters. Your opinion matters. We don't want you to stand at the back and keep your mouth shut.

As to what you can do to help, it's very simple. Next time somebody says something blatantly anti-male, call them on it.

scythe2011 · 2014-04-12T22:09:49+00:00

Can you give me some examples of how female allies can help prevent male discrimination?

There are many issues men cannot openly talk about. They're either shamed by traditionalists -> "be a man/man up" or they're shamed by feminists -> "delicious man tears, etc". A female ally can help by re-framing any discussion about a social issue that she's involved in so that it is inclusive of everyone.

An example I like to use is the 14th Amendment to the US constitution - ostensibly it was created to grant former slaves citizenship after the civil war, yet no where in the text does it mention African-Americans, slaves or slavery. It is a law that applies to all of us and is based on a fundamental principle that applies equally. If laws like VAWA were written like the 14th amendment then things would be a lot better.

What are some major double standards you've witnessed, when you've wished that a woman would have spoken up or done something to address the situation?

A number of times I've seen something clearly unjust happen to a man and then bystanders would chuckle because when it's a man who is hurt it's funny. Sometimes another man would then say "Well women have historically suffered this injustice so if men suffer for a while, it's okay." The only time I've seen this BS called out was by a woman who retorted "Well wouldn't it be better if it didn't happen to anyone?"

Would you be able to name a few role models who have stood up against the mainstream to champion men's rights? (Like law enforcement, judges, etc)

There are number of people on the Internet, like the men and women on A Voice for Men.

There are number of likely feminists (possibly former) like C. Hoff-Summers, Camille Paglia, J. Fiamengo, W. Farrell and one unlikely feminist - Naomi Wolf - I was particularly impressed by her defense of Julian Assange against the quite possibly false rape charges made against him in Sweden.

Most famous men are unlikely to speak up for other men - the risk is too high. One possible exception is Bob Geldof.

sillymod · 2014-04-12T22:59:49+00:00

If you want to stop discrimination against men, speak up when you hear it. Draw awareness to it. That is about the only thing that can be done. I think enough of our society gets the idea that discrimination = bad, but they don't necessarily see it as discrimination.

iethatis · 2014-04-13T00:17:48+00:00

Speak up whenever possible. If you feel you're being annoying, you're on the right track.

congenital_derpes · 2014-04-13T01:06:57+00:00

I think all is required by any individual (at least at a minimum to make sure you aren't implicitly participating in the problem) is to voice that you disagree with sexist views when they are presented to you. In fact, I think this is a good baseline for any issue. People aren't morally obligated to stand up and give speeches all the time, or to initiate movements behind a given cause (although they are certainly welcome to if they feel the need). But the moral requirement is to express that you do not agree when you hear or see an injustice. Otherwise your silence is too dangerously close to a vote of support. Don't let yourself contribute to the binality of evil.

The_Patriarchy · 2014-04-13T14:37:27+00:00

I live openly as a lesbian, and I find that some people (male and female) will sometimes automatically assume that I am a certain type of angry man-hating feminist.

Back in the 70s there was this movement within feminism called "Political Lesbianism". The idea basically boiled down to straight women becoming "lesbians" because they hated men. I suspect the influx of angry man-hating straight women is at least partly related to that assumption.

This horrifies me. Denying or minimizing crimes against men is so incredibly destructive to our culture as a whole. Can you imagine a female teacher bringing this mindset into a classroom

Take a Women's/Gender Studies course and you'll see exactly that, if you ever bring up the topic (because they sure as hell won't do it on their own).

Can you give me some examples of how female allies can help prevent male discrimination?

If you advocate for men's rights, then you have as much right to the label "MRA" as anyone else. If you see something you think is unfair, and you have the power to change it, then change it. That's about all anyone can really be expected to do.

What are some major double standards you've witnessed, when you've wished that a woman would have spoken up or done something to address the situation?

I used to work in a large office. It was me and maybe 40 or so women (at that point I was literally the only guy). On the other side of the office, a pregnant woman had a seizure. Instead of anyone there doing anything to help her, they came all the way over to get me, had me pick her up and put her on the ground. Now, I am a big guy, but there were women there that were big enough to do what I did. They got me because I was the guy. I wish one of those women would have taken responsibility instead of getting the nearest man and standing around just gawking.

Side note: An ambulance came, they took her to the hospital, and last I heard everything turned out fine with the baby.

Would you be able to name a few role models who have stood up against the mainstream to champion men's rights? (Like law enforcement, judges, etc)

Christina Hoff Sommers is pretty awesome.

2014-04-12T21:35:18+00:00

Can you give me some examples of how female allies can help prevent male discrimination?

I think the best way to promote change is just to be the change. Shifting societal perceptions is a long grueling process, sadly. Just talking about these issues can do wonders. Look at /u/girlwriteswhat. She was just one woman who had an interest in gender discourse and decided to start writing and then later make youtube videos. She's become a really important voice for the mens rights movement. Millions of people have viewed her videos and are quite grateful to her for giving men a voice.

Even some words of support can make a difference. Other people write to legislators or organizations to voice their disapproval with certain policies. I know this sub has contacted many DV or rape victim support sources to try to get them to be more welcoming to male victims. The sub also helped fund a kickstarter for Brian Banks, a man who went to jail on a false rape accusation. Other people just discuss the issues with their peers.

What are some major double standards you've witnessed, when you've wished that a woman would have spoken up or done something to address the situation?

I feel like a lot of double standards are not necessarily something you'll witness happen in front of you. I mean of course there are instances where women are physically assaulting men in public and no one cares. There's instances where people judge or taunt men on their appearance or their status, and no one cares. But I feel like the real double standards are revealed in the help we're willing to give females and not males. We want to help women join underrepresented fields. We want to prevent violence against women. We want to teach our sons to respect women. All noble goals - but where's the other side? Why is violence against men nothing we are talking about? Why are men being the majority of school dropouts not talked about? Why are men being the majority of suicides not talked about?

It's the lack of discussion that is the double standard. When women are inconvenienced or harmed, we want to fix it. When men are harmed, we are indifferent.

Would you be able to name a few role models who have stood up against the mainstream to champion men's rights? (Like law enforcement, judges, etc)

Warren Farrell is a pretty good role model. Here is a guy that actually devoted a lot of his life to advocating for women as a feminist and now has turned his focus to boys and men. You could not ask for a more egalitarian person.

Erin Pizzey is also a great role model. She started one of the first women's shelters. She later began advocating for male victims of domestic violence. Doing so caused feminists to threaten to kill her.

Both these people are despised by feminists despite being incredibly kind individuals.

Canadian Associate For Equality (CAFE) is a great organization that's promoted many events to talk about male issues. They're an awesome group.

rogerwatersbitch · 2014-04-12T21:43:53+00:00

1-Just speaking out about it, not just online, but in real life.You dont have to rant or lecture, just remind them of the double standards. You should have many chances to do this as well, since there are so many. This goes for guys as well, since they tend to be pretty cruel themselves when it comes to males being victims of sexual violence. 2-Well, Ive seen feminists do the following countless times: they refuse to believe men and women are different, that men tend to be more aggresive, and that that can give them an advantage, say, in their careers or in anything else, but when it comes to them being victimized, they are the first to point the fingers at male aggresiveness. In this video its pretty clear: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fs_s-u8z_hg

Now, I dont agree with what alot of this guy is saying, or how he says it (allthough there is a kernel of truth in it somewhere), but if you pay attention to the feminist, she starts out calling him "aggresive", then she goes on about how men are not innately different from women, yet after the guy freaks out and insults her she states "this is exactly what masculinity looks like". This always bugs me. When you say men might be more likely to suceed in some careers because they tend to be more aggresive and ambitious, feminists raise hell and call you sexist...yet when it comes to being victimized feminists blame men for being more violent and aggresive. According to them, men are only stronger or more aggresive than women when it comes to harming others...but not for anything constructive for society like inventing shit, building, and protecting people. When it comes to war, they will focus on the few soldiers raping women, instead of the hundreds and thousands giving their life to protect them.

3-As a woman, I can say that standing up for men and boys is easier for me than say, a man. While I get shit daily, I dont have to deal with the vilification that men do when they speak up for their rights, so any man that hass the balls to do so deserves my respect (and compassion).I dont know if I had been born a man I would have the guts to do the same.

jacobman · 2014-04-13T02:19:10+00:00

As a result, I've had the misfortune of hearing some women express denial about the existence of male rape or sexual assault.

While obviously a man doesn't always consent, and a man can be raped, I would like those who don't have ample evidence otherwise to consider the idea that rape might in general be different for men compared to women. While I obviously don't know anything for sure, my experience has pointed towards women regretting sex a lot more than men. I've heard lots of stories from women who are extremely upset by the results of sex. I've never heard this from men. Again, not to say it doesn't happen, but perhaps men are affected by sex differently. I bring this up because I've also noticed different responses to rape from men who bring it up. Of the men and women who come forward, the men have seemed less affected. Again, not that that means no men are affected. All I'm proposing here is that the idea that men and women are affected by sex/rape differently is not rejected without due consideration.

johntheother · 2014-04-13T07:52:10+00:00

Hi DieHexe, thanks for the questions. I can see about least 40 other responders, but for whatever it's worth, I'll toss my 2 cents in too.

Your first question although is clearly well intended is malformed: "Can you give me some examples of how female allies can help prevent male discrimination?"

The phrase "female allies" is a problem. I routinely see the reverse of this phrase on feminist websites, referring to "male allies" and it betrays an unexamined "us versus them" mentality, aligned along lines of sexual identity. MRAs like Allison Tieman, Della Burton, Karen Straughan, or Diana Davison are not "female allies". To consider them as such would be to render their participation to that of second class citizens. That they all happen to be female does however confer on them a certain power the rest of us don't have. They can speak plainly about the behaviour of women, without suffering immediate de-humanization and non-personhood in the way male MRAs experience. That doesn't mean they aren't criticized and told that they have "internalized misogyny" or similar nonsense, but exercising that privilege is what you can do.

2014-04-13T08:44:38+00:00

"Can you give me some examples of how female allies can help prevent male discrimination?"

Very simple.

Call out male bigotry or anyone who makes an unfair assumption about men. Say it loud and clear that we don't tolerate it when women are on the receiving end so it should be the same with men.

"What are some major double standards you've witnessed, when you've wished that a woman would have spoken up or done something to address the situation?"

The two major ones that come to mind are:

A) Male victims and survivors. Mainly how special interest groups claim that addressing the problem takes away from female victims. You could say the same about issues concerning men in general. Equality...except for areas where men might benefit in addition to women.

B) "Never hit a girl/woman/lady". Funny how suddenly it's these targets that are emphasized for boys and men while girls and women are hardly ever taught not to hit a boy or man or given lenient treatment if they're caught. (See female sentencing discount). If a man or boy were to retaliate in self-defense, where his life is in danger, he'd be the one punished harshly.

C) Female criminals getting away with lighter sentences in court. Especially when it concerns raping a man, boy, or girl. Whereas male rapists get the book thrown at them hard in sentencing.

D) The prevalent "Grrl Power' narrative in movies/stories/books with strong female characters. It's character development and endorsed by the makers that a female character can berate, belittle, and physically attack the male character. If it were the other way around, out come the pitchforks and harsh criticisms. A recent example is a computer game I had beaten called "The Inner World". The strong, female character Laura is turned to stone in the final chapter and Robert, the main character has to save her along with her father and denzines of his home sharing a similar fate. The ending has him, just before changing her back, kissing her lightly on the cheek (he developed a crush on her which bloomed into infatuation towards the end of the game). Grateful for saving the world, Laura kisses him on the lips...then proceeds to give him one hard punch to the jaw, knocking him down. "That's for the kiss. You think I wouldn't know?" she quips. Yeah, she basically assaults him for something as harmless as a kiss on the cheek to get a cheap laugh. Only I'm not laughing. I was so dismayed because I loved playing the game, really got into the characters and plot. Then they pull this shit in the end, this "empowerment" crap. If Robert punched her back the same way, you'd bet there would be complaints up the wooza! But no, "grrl power" as they say because she did it. All because he fucking kissed her on the fucking cheek!

"Would you be able to name a few role models who have stood up against the mainstream to champion men's rights? (Like law enforcement, judges, etc)"

Warren Farrell. He's well-spoken, gentle, diplomatic, egalitarian all the way.

sens2t2vethug · 2014-04-13T11:28:11+00:00

Hi, thanks for your question and welcome to the sub.

Can you give me some examples of how female allies can help prevent male discrimination?

It's very respectful of you to call yourself a female ally but I think everyone here would be perfectly happy with you being an MRA or egalitarian etc - if you wanted to, of course. Many of the most prominent and popular MRAs are women. They speak out on male issues on youtube, on their blogs, in public lectures, they set up men's groups on campus. I think it can be something in one's personal life too: just being aware of the social pressures on the men you know, always including them, having compassion for them, and pointing out when others don't etc.

What are some major double standards you've witnessed, when you've wished that a woman would have spoken up or done something to address the situation?

Almost any political issue related to gender seems to generate double standards. The pay gap debate recently was an example of this. Obviously many women did speak up about how misleading the White House figures are, but still many men and women don't. Almost any academic theorising of gender generates double standards imho.

If you want a more quotidian example, not long ago some friends were visiting and all the girls were put up in our friends' houses, while only some of the boys were. I objected to this and said that, while men might be a little safer in hostels than women, we should still try to accommodate the guys ourselves so they don't feel left out. I don't think it was very fair and things like this probably contribute to a lot of gender roles, like men being stoic and not complaining.

Would you be able to name a few role models who have stood up against the mainstream to champion men's rights? (Like law enforcement, judges, etc)

The first people who come to mind are journalists like Cathy Young, Barbara Kay, Robyn Urbach and several others. Going back a bit now, Betty Friedan herself stood up to other feminists who she felt were biased towards men, see for example her 1981 book The Second Stage.

RaxL · 2014-04-13T14:56:48+00:00

I'm in the minority, but I actually think that the whole men's rights thing is unsustainable. I don't think that people separating themselves and then advocating for the respective demographic categories they fall in to is a good way to organize society.

Just my perspective.

Title	Questions for Men's Rights from a lesbian, female-identified ally
Author	[deleted]
Upvotes	127
Comments	71
Date	April 12, 2014 8:47 PM UTC (12 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/22vlrx/questions_for_mens_rights_from_a_lesbian/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/questions-for-mens-rights-from-a-lesbian-female.1001737 https://theredarchive.com/post/1001737

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