I'm a little confused

JockeVXO · 2012-12-01T15:42:00+00:00

Could you give an example of women facing legal discrimination?

I couldn't give a flying fuck what "most feminists" think. My beef is with feminism, not feminists. I vehemently disagree with the premises of their belief system. I find the religion to be based on female chauvinism above all, and one that has nothing at all to do with equality. Not even the "sacred" first-wavers sought equality, but promoted increasing female privileges.

So what if many of the feminists you speak with think men should get reproductive rights, or that men should get the same right to bodily integrity women have, or that men should get the same right to aid and benefits that women have, etc... If feminists actually wanted to put an end to sex discrimination, they'd eradicate all female privileges. They most certainly have the power to do so, but they don't. Because it doesn't fit their worldview.

There are clear differences between feminism and men's rights advocacy, ideological and political differences that matter.

PlayMeWhile · 2012-12-01T11:19:27+00:00

Personally I think there are a lot of misconceptions with "most of the feminists" "most of the MRA". It usually breaks down to "people I have met" or "people I know".

To me feminism is defined by the kind of studies they have, the kind of books and articles they publish and the kind of laws they favour. This is feminism. Everything else is just a periphery.

So personally I do not see a lot of similarities between the groups.

2012-12-01T17:26:11+00:00

The first thing you need to do is differentiate between women's rights and feminism.

Pecanpig · 2012-12-01T11:42:50+00:00

men talking as though women aren't discriminated against at all in any context.

Actually are main thing it to ask for evidence of said discrimination, and then call them out on the BS they bring up, generally things like women being expected to breast feed or something stupid like that.

The main difference is that in the MRM we have a few crazies on the sidelines but the majority keeps them in check, while in Feminism the crazies are the ones running things. Most people who call themselves feminists are decent people who are simply ignorant of most forms of discrimination.

We are like atheists while they are the Scientologists., the majority of us are alright, with exception to the rising atheism+ community, but to be a scientologist you pretty much need to be crazy or indoctrinated.

TrueEvenIfUdenyIt · 2012-12-01T13:32:12+00:00

In my world here in Germany, women aren’t discriminated. At all.
My world does not contain >60 year old farts in upper management of some dusty old company (which doesn’t let men in either, if they are not part of the old boys club, btw).

My world consists of everyone I know, the companies I work with, the shops I go to, and the parties and clubs I go to.

There literally is no such thing as discrimination against women there. In fact, none of us even understands the concept of discriminating against women. Why? What would be the point? It simply isn’t compatible with our minds. It’s an absurd concept from the dark ages to us.
And those dusty old sacks I mentioned above, are part of that absurd world from before time. Something we can hardly believe can even exist. Like finding a giant cave with dinosaurs.
What I want to say: It simply isn’t part of the real world anymore. The few old farts left who are still sexist, are not part of our society anymore. And why would either gender suck up to them? Nobody with a sane mind wants to be part of that. We figure they’ll be dead soon anyway, and they are meaningless too.

However, casual discrimination of men is considered normal. There are special parking spots for women (because we men are apparently all rapists and all women completely helpless), and women apparently can go to the one toilet for men in a club, but we can’t shit on the three toilets for women… or ever go in that room. Because then we’d be “perverts” and “sexual predators”… but a woman staring at our dicks when standing at the urinal is not pervert or being a sexual predator…
There’s a “ladies night” but no “men’s night”. There are women’s quotas in government, and they even want to force it on companies… which is inherently extremely and blatantly sexist. And the list goes on and on.

Need I say more?

P.S.: I’m not a “MRA”. First of all, because I’m not a sexist and hence the only viable choice is to be for equal rights for everybody. Not “equality”. Never “equality”. Equal rights. And second of all, I don’t consider something that I expect to be the normal default behavior of every sane human being to be “activism”. I’m just… normal.

ChildTherapist · 2012-12-01T11:48:34+00:00

Because of my field, I also do a lot of reading on various sides of the main issues that get discussed by mens and womens rights groups.

I agree with you that what I call the middle of the road types; the ones who are educated on the issues and interested in human justice, are pretty much on the same page. Then the further you go from that center, you start getting those extreme ridiculous opinions. Like the old "all men are rapists" or "all women belong in the kitchen" crap that you hear.

I consider myself a pretty strong feminist, but I think that's really another way of saying I care about human justice and equality. I think a lot of the men here would agree with you, but that's for them to say.

Good question!

C0CKPUNCHER · 2012-12-01T15:04:58+00:00

This thread again.

TrueEvenIfUdenyIt · 2012-12-01T14:33:36+00:00

In what ways are women discriminated against in the united states today?

shoreward · 2012-12-01T16:52:53+00:00

let's start with "extremes of both sides too, like women talking as though men are sexcrazed idiots who'll rape them the moment the man looks at them, and men talking as though women aren't discriminated against at all in any context" It is bizarre to me that you feel those are somehow equivalent.

Take the case of the teen who finds a lost child in a mall and escorts them to securtiy or to look for their parent - because of the sex craze myth he will face public shaming, quite likely a criminal charge and prison, then he will be added to the statistics 'proving' men are pigs. On the other hand a woman not taken seriously when she claims that she has been oppressed carries ZERO real world physical verifiable harm.

It'sd literally a witch hunt - we are expected to believe that any man looking at a child is guilty of having impure thoughts about said child, and here's where the witchcraft comes in, if he looks at a picture of a kid he does some voodoo harm to said kid.

There are 2 extremes here, but that does not make them equivalent, one is batshit crazy and based on non thinking and feelings, the other is a demand for evidence.

muchachomalo · 2012-12-01T12:59:52+00:00

It seems that the extreme idiots are the ones that make the most noise. I have seen those extreme idiots told to stfu in this subreddit and i do so myself on occasion.

oneiorosgrip · 2012-12-02T01:20:11+00:00

The disparity is not in the majority of both groups versus the extreme ends of both groups. It's in the comparison between what those who claim the label say, and what has been done in the real world under the umbrella of said label.

I see a totally different picture of the two movements then you are presenting.

The men's rights movement claims the existence of discrimination against men, and damaging stereotypes and social standards which negatively impact men. These claims are attributed to a variety of causes, including the evolution of gender roles with the advancement of civilization, acceptance and perpetuation of stereotypes by both sexes, historical necessity and the failure of social standards to keep up with social change, and feminist lobbying and activism. These claims are demonstrated by tangible first-world examples in law, policy, and social responses to men.

The movement asserts an opposition to law and policy which mandates human rights violations against men, and to social adherence to and enforcement of false gender stereotypes which are discriminatory or destructive, (such as "men are predators" and "women are helpless") and has addressed these issues with written and verbal advocacy including petitions, some public protest, and lobbying. The MRM has not used political power to push through legislation and policy which mandates human rights violations or which is discriminatory.

That which is attributed to the fringes of the MRM - speech which is more judgmental or harsh toward women - comes from a segment whose activity in legal advocacy is nonexistent.

The feminist movement claims the existence of a system of institutionalized discrimination against women, which they blame on male power and men's desire to retain it. The movement has built an entire area of writing and study based upon this claim, but does not back it up with concrete or tangible first world examples, only myths and complaints.

Feminism considers all gender stereotypes false and damaging and asserts an opposition to the absence of law and policy which mandates special and preferential treatment for women. The movement has addressed their issues using a host of methods including written and verbal discussion, organized protest both nonviolent and violent, advertising campaigns, political lobbying, populating academia with advocates, and attacks on the speech of other groups with whom they disagree.

The feminist movement has used political power to push through legislation and policy which mandates human rights violations or which is discriminatory.

That which is attributed by feminists trying to argue NAFALT in /r/mensrights, to the fringes of the feminist movement - false claims of discrimination, slanderous stereotyping of males, and advocacy and activism which has led to discriminatory laws - is the face the movement as a whole has shown for decades in the practical application of its advocacy in western society.

The thing is, aspects of feminism with which you disagree are not made non-mainstream by your dislike of them. When the majority of a movement's activity revolves around a set of factors, and the ways in which society is affected by that movement are based on those factors, those factors are the defining characteristics of the movement, whether or not they're the characteristics with which you identify, regardless of your desire to associate your chosen characteristics with the movement, and despite your choice to ignore them.

*edit - accidentally some words

fifi1234 · 2012-12-01T15:03:07+00:00

I'm a member of both feminist and mens rights subreddits and most of the time I can't really see the difference.

MRA's seek equality under the law for all persons, Feminists promote exceptions and special treatment for females. That is the difference.

I'd say the majority of feminists I come in contact with would agree with almost everything that the majority of mens rights-people talk about.

Wrong.

ChildTherapist · 2012-12-01T19:52:39+00:00

This is why many MRAs are against feminism and this is a good explanation of why the "nice" feminists are contributing to the problem.

memymineown · 2012-12-01T12:42:19+00:00

If you talk to feminists one on one you mostly get reasonable people. If you talk to them in a group you get this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TLyRvmrdsJI

rightsbot · 2012-12-01T11:08:18+00:00

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Title	I'm a little confused
Author	Tatshua
Upvotes	21
Comments	108
Date	December 1, 2012 11:06 AM UTC (13 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/143lko/im_a_little_confused/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/im-a-little-confused.1007867 https://theredarchive.com/post/1007867

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