I can't take this crap anymore.

actanonverba8 · 2012-11-27T09:25:47+00:00

A lot of the type folks that speak that way are ideologues, some of them a little crazy, some just jerks.

But, I think what is at the root in most cases is they know how powerful the victim position is. The victim position:

1) Frees you from personal responsibility for your actions or problems.
2) Gives you the moral authority to take vengenace on your alleged oppressor. 3) Grants you access to special rights and compensations.

They talk about "equality" and "facts" but what they really want is power and to silence their perceived enemies.

MechPlasma · 2012-11-27T09:21:17+00:00

Stop trying to debate with morons.

I thought that would have been obvious.

JohnAdamZiolkowski · 2012-11-27T08:36:44+00:00

It's dismissive and obviously sexist (and racist too). There will be no reasoning with this person, so it'd be wise just to forget about it. There are many people in the world who are willing to learn and talk and think, but this is not one of them.

imightsay · 2012-11-27T10:43:12+00:00

Oh sure, a white man who doesn't think women making less money than men has anything to do with their gender. What a surprise.

Of course gender influences the wage gap, just not always in as direct a way as some people think. There are cases where women and men work the same job, same hours, same experience, etc. and women are paid less simply because they're women. That kind of discrimination is illegal and wrong.

When wage data is aggregated over different types of jobs, confounding factors like the ones I listed come into play. Just to explain one example, dangerous jobs like steel work or mining are overwhelmingly done by males. These jobs often pay more than other careers that require similar training or experience but don't carry similar risks.

And so you know, I was trying to contribute to the discussion with facts people may not be aware of, and you dismissed what I had to say because of my race and gender. I'm interested in issues like the wage gap and open to talking about them respectfully, if you decide to.

PartTimeBadman · 2012-11-27T09:22:48+00:00

You're wasting your time. No matter what, they are the most oppressed, they have undergone more hardships than we can ever imagine, we don't know suffering the way they do. It's pathetic, I know, but it's the way they view the world.

Jimm607 · 2012-11-27T10:06:14+00:00

welcome to the backwards world of 'Gender equality'. Only everyone else has race/gender/sexuality discrimination issues, and you're not allowed to talk on behalf of any of them, you're the straight white man, you're the enemy.

On a serious note though, you can't reason with people like these, the most you can do is attempt to give them information they can't refute, statistics, but even then you're likely not going to change someones mind once theyve got it into their heads that they are the victim.

2012-11-27T11:14:53+00:00

Unfortunately, arguing with these people is essential, because the act of not arguing with them as they push their crap on society is what has gotten everyone in this state.

No one said anything when feminists cried "women are the same as men" and as a result, now you are lynched if you bring up the fact that women are biologically different.

rapiertwit · 2012-11-27T11:46:43+00:00

Yup, identity politics sucks.

Imthere · 2012-11-27T14:12:25+00:00

You don't have to be a woman to be a gynecologist.

You don't have to be a jew to believe that the holocaust was wrong.

You don't need to be a member of any group to understand the issues they face. People who say that are divisive and exclusionary. They are dehumanizing the people who try to understand them.

A simple "talking point" response is better than any reasoned argument. If they could listen to reason, they wouldn't be spouting that nonsense in the first place.

Faryshta · 2012-11-27T11:02:07+00:00

So you can't talk about what its to be like someone who isn't identical to you but they can talk exactly of how you are and feel at any moment?

2012-11-27T12:50:01+00:00

Unfriend the person or stop using Facebook.

2012-11-27T11:55:21+00:00

Welcome to today's world, where your opinions are invalidated before you even formulate them - if you belong to the dreaded trifecta (white, male, usually young).

I wish I could give you advice, but I can only corroborate that you're far from the only one meeting with these views. "I'm allowed to discriminate, and you are not" seems to be most of these people's motto.

They seem to be totally unaware of the irony in their statements - or worse, they know full well what they're doing and do it anyway.

oneiorosgrip · 2012-11-27T12:20:07+00:00

That's an old tactic - I remember it being used on my Dad when he was working toward his Master's degree. He got "you're a middle-aged, middle-class white male oppressor" as an answer to things that had nothing to do with any of those factors. It's one of those cards which lazy and unthinking people pull to get out of making a real argument or dealing with information the don't like but can't deny. And there's no reason to not point that out whenever people say shit like that to you.

luxury_banana · 2012-11-27T15:53:36+00:00

Get new friends who aren't anti-intellectual gender ideologues.

PrincessGary · 2012-11-27T19:37:26+00:00

ignore them, thats the best you can do, most of these women honestly think they are the centre of the world, and that their opinion matters more than anything else, they thrive on attention.

johnmarkley · 2012-11-28T01:25:39+00:00

One possibility, though probably not suitable for a one-off comment: Offer to give them what they want, good and hard. Being a man disqualifies you from having an opinion on women's issues? So be it.

Should men refrain from making lewd or threatening comments to women in the street? You have no opinion on the matter. If a woman in a generally male-dominated space is being mistreated due to sexism, is that wrong? You don't know. Would you ever tell someone treating women that way that they should stop? Of course not. As a man, it's not your place to make judgments about whether such behavior is right or wrong. Are you pro-choice? No, it's not your place to involve yourself.

Should female victims of rape and domestic violence be helped? You really can't say, and you would never be so presumptuous as to actually provide such help or encourage others to do so. Men can stop rape? Perhaps, but as a man you certainly have no right to say that they should. (Unless the victim in question is also male, of course.) Should violent crimes against women even be prosecuted? You don't know.

2012-11-27T11:39:46+00:00

The issue is that the person you're engaging doesn't even know how to argue their own position accurately, let alone accept yours.

The proper feminist reply would be citing that, while society promotes men working more dangerous jobs (and thus having more money), a problem in and of itself, there's also a wage difference between men and women working identical positions, in some cases.

Thankfully, though, your friend there continues to insult feminism with pop fem bullshit and dismissing men's issues.

TracyMorganFreeman · 2012-11-27T13:09:19+00:00

"You can't talk about womens or LGBT issues, because you aren't one!"

Do you think the only doctors who can treat cancer are the one's who have had it?

"Oh sure, a white man who doesn't think women making less money than men has anything to do with their gender. What a surprise."

What an empty statement. Make an argument, or it's just as open to "Oh a minority thinks every malady against them is because of their race and/or sex and nothing to do with blaming everyone else instead of merit. What a surprise"

These people engage with manipulative tactics. You have two main choices: Turn their inane arguments on their head, or stop indulging them.

2012-11-27T13:24:58+00:00

Arguing with idiots on facebook isn't going to get you very far.

2012-11-27T15:48:39+00:00

Someone who argues like (condescending, dismissive, sanctimonius) that is not very different from a stereotypical white supremacist kkk member. There is little point in arguing with someone who sees you as inferior.

rightsbot · 2012-11-27T07:54:20+00:00

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m9bearmanpig · 2012-11-27T15:03:34+00:00

Read "The Evil Gene" by Barbara Oakley (brilliant woman, literally). She is an engineer working in brain imaging. There is a passage in her book were she tells of debating the ills of communism with fishermen on a Russian trawler (where she worked as a translator). In her book she explains some of the neuroscience going on inside the other persons head. It is important to advocate for men's rights & true equality but don't expect anything from a poisoned mind. Your audience is not who you debate with, they are all the other sheeple who make up society. The fundamental flaw I see with feminism is they deny humanity. Women are not a separate species. As far as the LGBTQ thing, this tactic of fusing: women, children, sexual orientation, pets (there are animal DV shelters) is a dead giveaway that you are dealing with a crazy person. Demonstrate that to the audience.

Phototoxin · 2012-11-27T15:08:30+00:00

Are you a politician? No? Then you cannot vote!

ARedditorCalledQuest · 2012-11-27T16:15:28+00:00

If you're arguing on a status or some other form of public communication, just remain calm and let them demonstrate to everyone on both of your friends lists how uneducated they are. At this point in the argument, it's pretty hopeless to try to get this person to agree with you, but you can probably get somebody else to start thinking.

AbsoluteBlack · 2012-11-27T16:35:20+00:00

stop going on tumblr for a start?

DerpaNerb · 2012-11-27T17:46:26+00:00

Just lie and say you are black from a poor family. It doesn't actually change your argument in any way whatsoever (or it shouldn't), because race and social status have absolutely nothing to do with men's rights. Your same argument should be just as "valid" regardless of who it comes from.

So yeah, it will change your argument in no way at all, but it will completely shut down their response, and hopefully make them realize how racist they are being.

This is all assuming it's being done over the internet.

Oh, and this is also assuming you are talking to people who don't realize what ad hominem is. Hitler could make a pro-mens rights argument and the person saying it should (and would if you were talking to someone intelligent) have absolutely zero effect on whether the argument is invalid or not.

1+1 = 2 regardless of who says it.

EmmaBailey · 2012-11-27T20:18:52+00:00

While you may have something on the "men are willing to work more dangerous jobs" idea, it has nothing to do with a man and women working the same job, and the women being paid less. It's just not really a valid point, imo.

Also, those "cis male" haters who discredit anything you say don't just pick on men about it. I've gotten that hate before as well, and I feel your pain. It's very annoying for someone to tell you that your opinion does not matter because of the gender you were born into. It's sexism in a way. I am all about my trans friends, but segregating yourself into a group and hating on everyone outside of it is childish behavior.

2012-11-27T23:27:13+00:00

Well if they aren't compassionate enough to relate to someone who isn't exactly identical to themselves they wouldn't know what's best for anyone.

osmondheart · 2012-11-27T21:51:56+00:00

I'm a white male 25 year old middle class feminist :D

2012-11-28T09:06:28+00:00

Off topic, but note the whole "cis" lingo.

It's trying to turn normal sexuality into something that needs to be qualified by a statement, instead of saying "non-trans" when contextual/applicable.

It's like me always appending "not a pengiun" to whenever I see a bird. It's ridiculous.

Inherently an attack on the majority (e.g. non-trans).

C'mon, MRAs, eventually some of you might "get it" when you put your plush pony dolls away.

crazyex · 2012-11-27T18:11:30+00:00

Srsly bro, stop mansplaining and check dat privilege.

2012-11-27T18:16:01+00:00

On the internet you can be whoever you want. Be a woman.

AbsoluteBlack · 2012-11-27T08:42:48+00:00

[permanently deleted]

Title	I can't take this crap anymore.
Author	AbsoluteBlack
Upvotes	120
Comments	58
Date	November 27, 2012 7:52 AM UTC (13 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/13v4rj/i_cant_take_this_crap_anymore/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/i-cant-take-this-crap-anymore.1008218 https://theredarchive.com/post/1008218

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