MR, what's your biggest "feminist" belief, or opinion that wouldn't mesh well with other MRA's?

Funcuz · 2012-08-16T09:15:10+00:00

Abortion.

I've seen many an MRA support Christian views concerning this, while I think the best option for equality is giving men the right to opt out. I'm certainly not the only one, but I've seen this enough to mention it.

DavidByron · 2012-08-16T15:05:44+00:00

The equal pay thing is not bullshit, it's just more complicated than the basic issue seems to be. Yes, for the same job men and women are paid equally. Some women definitely don't understand this.

But some women talk about the problems with unequal because they believe that in our society women are (or historically have been) less likely to get promotions and less likely to be given encouragement and support to pursue high paying jobs. As a result, women tend to end up in lower paying jobs. They want these environmental factors to change.

This whole issue of pay comparison by gender is made problematic by the way you interpret the measurements of the problem. If you see that women get the same pay for the same jobs then the equal pay thing seems like bullshit. But equal pay might be a problem precisely because of all of the environmental factors that make men more likely to get into higher paying jobs. And once you consider this, you have to recognize that a goal everyone should have would be to have more equality of job levels across men and women.

rottingchrist · 2012-08-16T07:37:52+00:00

I think it is a pretty big deal women are expected to change their name.

12431 · 2012-08-16T07:24:29+00:00

I don't think most MRA's are actually for using dress or actions as a criteria for rape cases. The whole MRA protest is more about mainstream feminists claiming that any sort of drunken encounter where the woman would have said otherwise if she was sober is rape, and wanting the justice system to take the stance of "guilty until proven innocent".

In terms of stances I have that MRA's have butt heads with me on, I would say slut shaming's probably my biggest one. I think a lot of MRA's don't really realize it exists. I mean, it's obviously gone down in the more current years, but people are still more likely to cater to or ignore women who dress a certain way.

I do butt heads with the traditionalists also (who doesn't?), but they're generally the minority.

ENTP · 2012-08-16T16:26:27+00:00

I'm an egalitarian, so when I see transphobia getting upvoted here, and people defining cis as "normal" and trans as "abnormal", it bothers me a lot.

ThePigman · 2012-08-16T11:20:40+00:00

Your post is offensive as it assumes that most of us think a woman's dress or behavior has something to do with the truth or otherwise of her accusations.

rottingchrist · 2012-08-16T10:08:16+00:00

That women are, in fact, oppressed in certain societies and that the need to better their situation is urgent.

I got abused for saying that I have supported affirmative action for women and minorities. In the society I live in, those are very real problems, and there is no other immediate solution other than that. If there is a better one that can help a lot of people, I'd support that. But I can't just hold my hands up and go "No, my ideology is against this thing that might better your condition, so tough shit". There are serious problems, some facing women, a lot of others facing men, and yet more facing everyone equally that need urgent attention. I don't want to deny people the band aids while the ambulance arrives.

And I don't blindly support such policies, but only where I feel like they are needed. That whole difference between equal opportunities and equal outcomes. I am completely against equal outcomes, but totally in favour of equal opportunities.

Basically, my politics are not based on ideology but on pragmatism. I tend to support what I feel is the best solution to a given problem regardless of whether the solution is more in line with a left or right wing ideology. For example, many of my economic views would appall any card carrying leftist.

Canadian4Paul · 2012-08-16T15:26:25+00:00

Neither should be taken into account if she claims to have been raped. It is irrelevant. Either she got raped, or she didn't. That's what should be focused on.

I don't think any MRA's are advocating the opposite position. We don't believe there is ever an excuse to rape, or people who are more deserving of rape. That's simply a misrepresentation of our position.

2012-08-16T19:37:54+00:00

My biggest feminist belief is that I identify as a feminist, perhaps even radfem. Feminism and men's rights advocates aren't natural enemies.

rightsbot · 2012-08-16T07:14:18+00:00

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OuiCrudites · 2012-08-16T13:39:32+00:00

I think it should be pretty clear we don't agree one way on anything.

jolly_mcfats · 2012-08-17T06:18:09+00:00

I don't know if it is my biggest, but when we talk about the violence statistics disparity between men and women, the statistics clearly indicate that men have more to worry about.

Sometimes I will hear that women are out and about in the world just as much as men, and that the statistics indicate a reluctance to do harm to women on the part of everyone. I think there is some truth to this, but it does ignore that women are more afraid of violence, and take more measures to avoid it than men. Many women put a lot of thought into where they park, and what exposure they face when going to their car at night, etc... I can't speak for all men, but I was especially risk-prone when I was a boy and a young man, and to this day think nothing of parking my car on a dark street in a shady part of town. I do want women to feel safe in public spaces. As much as possible, I want public spaces to be places of freedom and happiness.

Now, I think that the conversation needs to include some basic recognition of the fact that there's a lot of conditioning/evolutionary psychology that sets a really high bar about what "safe" is for women, and maybe over the fact that men feel safe not because they ARE but because that is how they FEEL. But even transwomen I know will talk about how much more threatening people behaved to them when they transitioned from looking male to looking female, and I think that some members of the MRA can discount that experience a little quickly.

wavegeek · 2012-08-16T07:46:54+00:00

What are typical MRA beliefs? I would suggest:

The word "Patriarchy" is not at all useful to describe modern western societies.
Real Existing Feminism is not a movement for equality and in fact systematically works against men's legitimate interests.
Men have real and serious disadvantages in western society that no-one, particularly feminists, gives a damn about.
One can expect that any statistic quoted by a feminist will usually be exaggerated, misleading, or just plain false.
Male privilege is basically a vacuous concept.
Woman and men are, in general, different in mind and body and many or these differences are grounded in biology and are not mere "social construction". So it is not realistic to expect that men and women will have the same outcomes in their lives. They will make different choices that will have different consequences.
Feminists generally seek to retain traditional female advantages while doing away with men's traditional advantages.
Men are not a toxic and inferior sex, but actually have much to contribute and much to be proud of.

I would add

MRAs are fighting a losing battle because feminists brilliantly leverage chivalry and female solidarity to enlist support.

Which makes me think: I have never seen an MRA manifesto.

enkidusfriend · 2012-08-16T21:11:15+00:00

Women have historically been oppressed and disadvantaged compared to men. Feminism was instrumental in addressing this. Further, there are still some situations in the West where women are disadvantaged compared to men.

The treatment of women in many non-Western countries, on the other hand, is clearly horrific and indicates a clear and completely unjust gender imbalance in those places.

Jacksambuck · 2012-08-16T08:50:27+00:00

I think abortion is fine. An unborn baby is not yet part of the human community, and can be dispatched without justification.
I don't think a failure to address Mensrights will result in a collapse of civilization.
Women in the past were often treated like chattel, a holy kind of chattel is still chattel.
I don't particularly like the traditional family

yourfaceyourass · 2012-08-16T16:32:03+00:00

Feminism in general is NOT a Marxist movemenet, and Marxism almost entirely rejects mainsream feminism.

Edit: As far as I can tell, they reject what they call "bourgeois" feminism that puts gender before class.

C0CKPUNCHER · 2012-08-16T12:51:28+00:00

The main problem I have with the mensrights movement is they think they have taken 'the red pill' and then don't bother to think any further. The real fundamental issue is about how mothers parent, nothing else that comes up here really matters (that's not to say feminism does matter), or if it does matter it is really just an adjunct to the problem of how mothers parent. This isn't to say fathers can't matter, but the difference in power between mothers and fathers is phenomenal. If government is any benefit to society at all, it has to at least do research into how to raise kids. We demand more from dog owners than parents.

The second part of this problem is the complete lack of scientific rigor and tidal wave of profiteering bullshit when it comes to child rearing. Attachment parenting is better than cry it out (for example), but despite this being one of the most important pieces of information in the developed world, you would get fired for saying it (as it is 'insensitive' to parent's who did cry it out).

Bad parenting is not just about psychopaths, it is about, weight issues, fear, stupidity, gender pandering, etc etc, every human emotional fuck up.

Hach8 · 2012-08-16T18:45:44+00:00

Actually, I don't want to be part of it. The more I think about it, the more this just feels like flamebait and trying to cause infighting.

It's good to show we have a diverse system of beliefs, but I don't really see what good can come from this exercise.

2012-08-16T21:33:06+00:00

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VerySpecialSnowflake · 2012-08-16T13:53:58+00:00

I theoretically support rape shield laws.
I do not support the concept of so-called male abortion.
I support the concept of child support paid to the primary custodian.
I do not support the concept that child support be paid to an escrow with total transparency to the paying party.
I think alimony has its place, though as Boomers age and women are participating in the workforce more comparably (or maybe even to a greater extent) to men, it is becoming less necessary.
I do not think women who want to get married are doing so out of malice or wanting a "free ride."
I think it is wrong to sexually harass people. I think that even statements allegedly intended to be "innocent compliments" can be harassment. I do not think it is necessary to harass someone in order to "play the field" or try to pick someone up or date them.

Patrick5555 · 2012-08-16T08:08:08+00:00

We should get rid of the government. I think feminism has some roots in marxism and anarchism, so thats the closest I come to feminist ideas (although Im an anarcho-capitalist, which is like an anarchist diametrically opposed to marxism)

Legolas-the-elf · 2012-08-16T09:56:38+00:00

If you are for equal rights and hate the stupid, anti-equality shit that a small but vocal minority of the people here spout, you you should call yourself egalitarian, nor an MRA. They are a millstone round your neck and you are willingly putting them there.

Funcuz · 2012-08-16T16:17:55+00:00

I'm not going to apologize for a rapist but I don't feel it's irrelevent to consider a woman's dress and actions prior to a rape .

I am NOT suggesting that a rape is somehow less of a criminal act as far as the courts are concerned . What I am saying is that , contrary to contemporary feminist belief , it's downright stupid to ignore that dressing like a slut and acting like a slut is going to increase a woman's chances of being raped .

Yeah , sure , I'll be downvoted for pointing at the elephant in the room because some people aren't going to parse this properly . Nevertheless , I am by no means condoning rape nor am I suggesting that any woman deserves to be raped . I'm not even saying that her dress or behaviour is a mitigating factor . What I am saying is that COMMON SENSE suggests you don't dress in a micro-mini , drape yourself drunkenly over half the football team , and bend over at the waist every time you see something shiny on the floor . No , none of that excuses rape and rapists still deserve to be punished for their crimes regardless of how 'teased' they felt . We can't deny (as we've been trying to do for the past few decades) that a woman can endanger herself by acting and dressing provocatively .

What too many people have done (and this is where their ability to think critically breaks down) is assume that a woman's provocative behavior and dress is being used by most rational people as some sort of apology for a rapist . It's a seperate issue once you parse it correctly . We're talking about prevention versus punishment . Nobody is defending the crime of rape . What they ARE saying is that it's stupid to invite trouble .

Look , would you walk around a bad neighbourhood at 3 in the morning with a wad of cash held high up over your head while screaming you're rich ? Of course not . That would be stupid . Sure , it's still illegal to rob you but a mugger sure isn't going to care about that . Muggers may or may not rob you whether you look like you have money or not but your chances sure do increase by waving money around in a bad neighbourhood during the wee hours of the night .

Anyway , as I said , I expect people will downvote me for this and label me a rape apologist for this . All the same , if you can't accept the facts of life and how behaviour and dress increase your chances of becoming a victim of a crime , maybe common sense isn't your forte .

2012-08-16T13:46:31+00:00

I cannot fathom this whole "men should be allowed to cry" stuff - crying is a sign of weakness. There are good evolutionary reasons why it is not good for men to be weak. I do my crying in private or amidst family and I don't see that as an issue.

truthman2000 · 2012-08-16T18:56:03+00:00

I disagree with everything about feminism. It is a hate movement designed to tear down all that is good.

12431 · 2012-08-16T09:47:21+00:00

So basically, you've little to no track record of posting with us and you're calling most of us "victim blamer" and "rape apologists".

2012-08-16T20:21:59+00:00

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MR, what's your biggest "feminist" belief, or opinion that wouldn't mesh well with other MRA's?

Comments

3. Selected Male disadvantages.

7. Example: NOW wants women to retain preference for child custody, while complaining about the mythical pay gap. Not interested in women registering for selective service, but wants women to be 50% (or "better" in congress).

6 is very contested among MRAs. I actually think that most important gender differences are by products of society and history (they do exist and we shouldn't try to force people to abandon them).

Title	MR, what's your biggest "feminist" belief, or opinion that wouldn't mesh well with other MRA's?
Author	12431
Upvotes	16
Comments	151
Date	August 16, 2012 7:12 AM UTC (13 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/yb5ku/mr_whats_your_biggest_feminist_belief_or_opinion/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/mr-whats-your-biggest-feminist-belief-or-opinion.1015736 https://theredarchive.com/post/1015736