You should know that this article is being passed around to all the other gender based subreddits, while it's specifically directed at you all.

Kuonji · 2011-06-11T01:31:51+00:00

Shakesville has organized letter-writing campaigns that got ads taken off TV

So did Glenn Sacks/Fathers & Families.

Jessica Valenti and Jaclyn Friedman have published books and spoken at colleges,

So has Warren Farrell and Christina Hoff Sommers

Just because sexist shit happens to men doesn't mean sexist shit doesn't happen to women.

I agree. Though I'm not sure this concept is the mainstream thought process in the MRA movement. I believe most MRAs will agree women are victims of sexism as well as men. I, personally, choose to actively spend my time commenting/speaking about the sexism that affects men because the sexism that affects women already has quite a few voices speaking out. The men's side does not.

knowless · 2011-06-10T19:06:34+00:00

Fourth, and most importantly, movements are supposed to move. Hey, wait a second, let me yell again. MOVEMENTS ARE SUPPOSED TO MOVE. I look around the men's rights movement and you know what I see? Some two-person protests where someone pretends to be Batman, some petitions that can't gather a thousand signatures, some pick-up artists, some socially awkward people not dating anyone anymore and a whole lot of bitching in comments sections.

This is totally valid criticism.

I've only recently started signing the petitions, writing letters, and calling my congressmen. I've just made my first financial donation to a father's rights organization. I've started talking about men's rights to people I know. Those are just baby steps, there is so much else to do.

I encourage all of you to move beyond reddit and take some meaningful action in the real world.

tomek77 · 2011-06-10T19:22:03+00:00

Actually, I thought this was a surprisingly intelligent and well balanced article. The author has a very good understanding of both movements and draws accurate conclusions IMO.

Yes, she criticizes MRAs but her criticism is valid: men's group have not been good at gathering actual active support from their members. It has always been the case. (I think that this is because men who complain are viewed as weak and pathetic - and the cause of this probably lies in our genes: males are the expendable gender)

She also touches on a part of the men's movement that seems to be made of guys who can't get laid. I think this is true as well, but I would disagree with her dismissing of their pain as trivial. First: sexual needs are important, and when so many men can't obtain sexual gratification, it is an issue (after all, most would agree that women who can't fulfill their emotional needs by finding a "relationship" is an important issue..) Second: when women focus all of their sexuality on a small minority of "alphas" - chosen based on criterias that are idioticially superficial (height) and antisocial (i.e. "game") -, they unintentionally create a very large group of dissatisfied men who have no stake in the current order (that is generally a good predictor that the current order won't last..) and also, they destroy the genetic heritage of our specie (if enough women systematically chose the 6ft tall incompetent cad, instead of the plain-looking 5-foot-7 accomplished accountant or engineer, what do you think will happen to the next generations?)

SarahC · 2011-06-12T16:19:14+00:00

So - when women's pay finally equals men's (Ooo - single women in their 30's actually earn more than 30 year old guys now) - does that mean women get the Draft finally too?

aetheralloy · 2011-06-11T00:33:00+00:00

Old Tactic:

Appear to sympathize
State a couple neutral truth.
COMPLETELY BLOW A GASKET SWEARING UP A SHITSTORM at who you appeared to be sympathizing with.

ManThoughts · 2011-06-10T22:00:32+00:00

"Getting laid" is not a problem that most MRAs have. Getting laid is about 100 times easier than finding an upstanding and trustworthy woman. Claiming we're bitter because we can't get laid is not only false, it's a typical shaming tactic.
Women are way more guilty of saying "all men are ___" than the opposite. This is as easy to prove as turning on the television. We see misandrist television shows and commercials all the time, and women just nod their heads. We complain about it, and we're told to "man up." Women may not say "all men are rapists" much anymore, but they often say "men don't have empathy" "men can't handle a strong woman" "men aren't evolved for the 21st century" "men's brains are inferior to woman brains" and other examples of kinder, gentler bigotry.
Publicly declaring oneself an MRA in this day and age is a tremendous risk, and it is such a nasty and stupid insult to declare "you're not doing anything." We're NOT allowed to do anything as an MRA you dummy! Feminism won't let us. There are ways to fight for men's rights without waving a banner, declaring a movement, and telling the world "I'm an MRA!" Actually, the minute any man does this, they get jumped on by the FemiStasi and risk loss of employment, family, and any other number of things. Instead, men are indirectly supporting men's rights through other kinds of advocacy. Through politics, through nonprofits, through art and music, through volunteer work, and other means.

Mitchellonfire · 2011-06-10T18:47:27+00:00

Just thought you'd like to know what they are saying behind your back. I asked why it wasn't posted here, they said they were "terrified" and that it wouldn't be "well received."

Hindu_Wardrobe · 2011-06-11T09:01:48+00:00

Guys. Are you not getting it? The author is on your side.

ExpendableOne · 2011-06-10T20:32:53+00:00

Scum bag feminist: Says she cares about men's rights. Proceeds to completely insults and belittles the main, if not sole, movement actually trying to do something about the issues men face; vilifies and stereotypes those same men for speaking out against sexism; completely dismisses feminism's influence in perpetuating a lot of the issues men do face today(and the significant role feminism plays in the the very same zero-sum games she wishes to dismiss); and promotes the subjugation/annexing of men's rights activism to feminism(which was never about equality in the first place).

Demonspawn · 2011-06-10T21:04:57+00:00

First of all, sexism is not a zero-sum game.

There are two sides to sexism. One is cultural sexism (morality) and the other is institutional sexism (laws and regulations).

Cultural sexism is impossible to solve via government action. It is also impossible to solve via victim stance. You can't demand to be seen a different way, you have to act a different way until you are seen as the new way. This is not always easy nor quick (why would take a novel), but it is the only way.

Institutional sexism, at this time in the US, is vastly one sided, and is a zero-sum game.

Second, women are not evil.

We should wish women were evil. Instead, women (those who believe in feminism, at least) are bad. An evil person knows they are doing wrong (I kill puppies for fun!) while a bad person thinks they are doing right (I kill puppies to prevent rabies!). You try convincing someone who thinks they are doing right that they are really something which is bad for the society... it's not easy.

you're saying "all women are golddigging bitch whores who cheat on you with men with big black cocks."

No, we are saying that "all women have the legal rights to golddig, cuckold, falsely-accuse, and steal children via the power of laws, courts, and execution of laws and until those laws, courts, and execution changes, getting involved with women is a very risky proposition."

Third, some things are not issues. Chicks liking the guy with the motorcycle more than you? Not the most important social issue of our times.

Actually, it is. You won't get it until you get it, but this actual example you've posed is one of the most important issues facing our society right now.

Fourth, and most importantly, movements are supposed to move.

They are, but the MRA doesn't. Why? Because there is no solution. The only time in history that a culture came back from feminism was just before the Dark Ages when a religious resurgence prevented the destruction of the cultures. Rome fell due to feminism, Babylon fell due to feminism. Beyond those two giant empires, several smaller cultures fell due to feminism.

The reason that the MRA really doesn't move has to do with tons of issues. One of the biggest is that equality between men and women is not possible, and very few people want to admit it... so those in the MRA who think that it is possible constantly fight with those who know the truth. That stagnates movement. Another has to do with social acceptance.. women's rights is win/win (women get rights, politicians who support women's rights get reelected) while men's rights is lose/lose (women get responsibilities, politicians who impose responsibilities on women supposedly don't get reelected).

As an MRA who "gets it" we know there are few real solutions for our current situation:

Revolt and institute a new USA sans the 19th Amendment.
Expat to a non-feminized country.
Turtle and wait for the collapse.

Another issue having to do with momentum is the above... once you really get it, most quit the stupid arguing and actively work on one of the 3 solutions... leadership drops out. That's to where a lot of the early blogs/leaders in the MRA have vanished.

TLDR: Read Is there anything good about men? and "Sex and Culture" (the book, not just the link) and shit yourself. Once you get it, you get it, and there is no going back. Feminism (the idea the men and women are equal and interchangeable) is going to end western civilization.

crazyex · 2011-06-10T20:03:16+00:00

Of course, everything the article mentions is because of the patriarchy, right?

And feminism is the solution to the MR issues, right?

knowless · 2011-06-10T18:58:09+00:00

They repeat what the mra have been saying for ages, insult the mra, build a straw man then think they are helping. It's pathetic, like watching David icke fighting the zeitgeist guys

thetrollking · 2011-06-11T09:13:01+00:00

My comment:

OK.

First. I will sign up for your group blog and I will even be nice and keep the tone down and I will do it for the lulz.

[email protected]

Now, that said.

Where to even begin.

I think that one central problem of miscommunication between MRAs and so-called feminists who claim to be on our side, which I really doubt, is in the central assumptions of our respective movements.

Feminists claim that men are privileged above women and sought to lift women up to mens level.

I reject this assumption. This is why feminism is about supremacy, it was built on a false premise.

Men have never had the power over women that women have had over men. Before and during ww1 women went around handing out white feathers and calling men cowards to make men go and fight on the front lines to protect them. That is just one example of the type of power women have had in society and that was before 2nd wave feminism.

You can claim that women didn't have the right to vote, for ex, which is false or is built on a false premise and herstory nonsense.

Voting rights was based on the family and property rights. Men were representatives of the family unit for the benefit of the woman, who ran the family, and his children. This is why men could be jailed for the debts of their wives while the wives weren't jailed.

Basically, and I am not making a moral statement here so let's leave it alone, society was built with two spheres. Feminists claim the male sphere had all the power but I think the female sphere had all the power.

Or maybe a better way to put it is that the female sphere had more privileges and less responsibilities while the male sphere had fewer privileges but more responsibilities.

Either way, whether you take the female stance or male stance, what happened was that feminists kicked men off of their pedestal/sphere and took what men had while also keeping what women had.

Women dismissed their respective responsibilities and displaced them onto all men while taking male privileges and rights and also keeping female privileges. Men got all the responsibilities.

We can argue all day long over what the responsibilities/privileges/rights were and how they came about, socialization v. biology v economic roles v etc, but we come to one conclusion.

Will the MRM bring women down to our level or will women bring men up to their level????

This is the central problem of equality.

From what I see from you feminists is that you have realized the male role isn't all it was thought to be. Now you have to work and you don't want a nice guy but still reward with sex the alpha males. How do you think you will fix the problem you created?

Force men into the female role while still rewarding men for the "normative" role???

This is schitzo thinking. It won't happen on a cultural level.

All that aside, who do you think you are to define what my masculine cultural identity should or shouldn't be????

Where do you get the moral authority to define it on a cultural level or even a individual level?

You claim you care about men but it is obvious to me that all you want to do is co-opt and colonize the growing MRM for the benefit of WOMEN and not the benefit of MEN.

It is obvious in the words you use. You don't care about all men because they are human beings worthy of respect and dignity and rights but because they are your friends and fuck buddies and daddies.

That is the biggest difference between men and women. I used to care about all women because they were human beings. Now, I have heard about how women don't need me enough that I only care about men. Black men, white men, gay men, hispanic men, islamic men, boys and males in general.

To be honest I think feminism really has helped men on a micro level but harmed us on a macro level.

I have realized that I don't need women anywhere near as much as women need men. I have never seen a woman act as a human shield for a man. I have done so for women. I have seen women play, "let's you and him fight" so many times that I am sick of it.

I have been the guy who dragged a ex gf, a abusive one at that, out of a crashed car and up a enbankment. I have stood between other ex gfs and their meth head brothers or abusive step dads. I have done that and so much more and I am fucking sick of it.

You women have used up any good will that I had left for you. I try to talk about these things with feminists and got nothing but shame attacks about how I am a forever alone virgin living in my moms basement and how patriarchy hurts men too and how I need to swallow my male privilege and so on.

The one thing I really want to know is why you feminists think that you can define and redefine what maleness is for your benefit, not mine, and still think that men will keep doing what we used to?

I want to ask what is so bad about the "normative" male role, but I already know. It isn't the machoism or "misogyny" but instead is the misandry.

I can go the normative male route and I am nothing but a object of utility for women. I can go the feminist male route, and boy oh boy did my feminist mother spend my entire childhood deconstructing my masculinity, and I can be a object of scorn and a object of utility for women.

I will debate these issues with you on a group blog if you want but I doubt it will go anywhere.

My mother is a second wave feminist and I have even met the former president of NOW when I was just a boy. I have dated feminist girls, 3rd wave and riot grrl and so on, and I have even dated tradition girls. From my perspective you are all dripping with scorn and misandry for men.

I will try though.

The first question I want you to answer, in a non bullshit and patronizing way, is why do you think you have the moral authority to define what is or isn't a "good" male???

A troll for Men's Rights, The Troll King

thetrollking · 2011-06-11T07:52:06+00:00

Who Cares About Men's Rights? I do.

I care about every boy that was ever called a fag or a pussy or a sissy for being emotional, or sensitive, or unathletic, or just not manly enough. I care about the boys who are afraid they'll lose their manhood if they admit they like boys that way. I care a whole fuckload about the ones, gay and straight and other, who commit suicide about it.

I care about the three-year-old that just wants a doll. I care about the fourteen-year-old who just wants a pair of high heels. I care about the (straight!) college student who loves his skirts and dresses and will never be able to wear them outside the confines of hippie school.

I care that men are less likely to get to college than women, and I care that no one seems to be pissed the fuck off about it.

SO, she really really really cares about us....that is if we fit her mold of what is or isn't a "good" man. What is funny is that she claims to care about those "good" men and then defends women's right to fuck and reward the bad men.

The fact is that feminism is slowly dying. Society was set up so that men had one pedestal and one also had one pedestal. Whether you want to argue this was moral or right or wrong doesn't matter.

The fact is that women kicked men off of their pedestal and took mens spot and also kept their own. Now women need men much more than we need them, so feminists, who look out for women first and men last, want to appropriate and colonize the MRM for the benefit of women and not the benefit of men.

FUCK YOU BITCH! I stand up for the benefit of men above all else. I don't care if they are boys or black men or gay men or gender bending men or macho men or whatever.

Let me make this clear. I DON'T WANT TO BE PART OF A FEMINIST MOVEMENT! It wasn't just women in the 70s who claimed they didn't need a man, it was also women in the 90s and 00s and just last week I hear the same thing. If women don't need men for anything, not even as fathers....then fuck them. WHY would I want them in my movement?

I find it really ironic that women now want to push men, force men, into the female role while they want to reward men with sex for being the typical, if not a caricature, macho male. How do they think this is going to work? They might find some submission guy with a cuckold fetish but I doubt it. Feminism has never been about equal opportunities but instead about forced outcomes.

They want all the advantages for women and all the responsibilities for men. Good luck with that.

I kind of want to start my own movement now, except that I'm allergic to leading things and having responsibility, and also I kind of think a dude has to lead the Real MRAs Movement. Because, goddammit, we need one.

Atleast she is honest.

schreinz · 2011-06-11T07:09:20+00:00

The opening of that article was heartwarming. And then it was ripped from me.

thetrollking · 2011-06-11T09:13:27+00:00

I also left several others.

Comments