The radical feminist mods of r/anarchism have finally pushed the community too far, members revolt.

feminism in its intrinsic nature is about fighting gender inequality, which for the vast majority of situations in recent history has been unfair towards women in a systemic way. For example, I just wrote a term paper on gender in the Mexican Revolution, and one of the ways that patriarchal tendencies reared their head was that the revolutionaries had a sort of ideology of "protecting" women from the "ills of society" and outright abuses by husbands/landowners/etc, but the entire system was inherently sexist because it presumed to protect women from on high with a paternal system that didn't give women agency, or ability to act autonomously, thus infantilizing them; and it reinforced the idea that women belonged only in the private sphere, as mothers and wives only.

Now, anarchism is primarily about creating social organization that eliminates hierarchies because anarchists believe that hierarchies are inherently illegitimate. Feminism and anarchism share ideological bases, that people should be equal.

Some radical feminism and others have essentially overshot their goals and have become reactionaries, replacing one inequality with another. Although it is fair to say that the social system (if not overwhelmingly here, then certainly overwhelmingly in some other countries) still favors men. But replacing one set of inequalities with another, even in theory, is offensive and should be ostracized. But also take care not to go back the other way like they did :)

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points3 points 15 years ago (13 children) | Copy Link

Feminism and anarchism share ideological bases, that people should be equal.

In theory, perhaps, but that is where it ends. The only areas where feminists have made any difference is in affecting, or changing law. Eliminate law and we're right back to owning multiple wives and beating them over the head when they misbehave. The problem with the feminist movement, as I see it, is that when there is a legal victory in their favour, they don't stop there. When they achieve equality in one area, that isn't enough, they have to be given the advantage too, usually under the old rhetoric of "We were oppressed in X way for so long, we deserve more now".

It's all hypocritical bullshit. Anarchy does not create equals, it breeds bullies. Remove law and you remove both men and womens' social standing and civil rights, and we all know who is physically stronger, they try to guilt us with that one still today.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points3 points 15 years ago (12 children) | Copy Link

"anarchy" might breed bullies, but "anarchism" is not about disorder. "Law" in the case of anarchism is about communally-agreed upon informal laws, if that makes sense. I agree about the hypocritical nature of fighting for privilege, when you were previously fighting against privilege. It can be kind of a thorny subject sometimes though, especially when you look at systemic inequality. Take, for example, affirmative action. Now, I disagree with affirmative action, but the basis of the idea was that if the society disfavors black people, then creating a system that "favors" them would make a zero-sum system. It's obviously a shitty system, but there you go. When you talk about trying to fix a system of inequality, stuff about competing favoritism comes up.

About changing laws, I believe that changing laws positively is always going to be beneficial because it helps people right now. Anarchism has different ideas about how to go about change. Some more radical or insurrectionary anarchists believe in the overthrow of the state immediately, some, like proudhon advocate a kind of incrementalism where the state eventually becomes obsolete. etc etc etc but at its core, anarchism is about fighting inequality, so at least the ideological basis of feminism aligns there. I prefer to say equality though.

[–][deleted] 5 points6 points7 points 15 years ago (11 children) | Copy Link

"anarchy" might breed bullies, but "anarchism" is not about disorder. "Law" in the case of anarchism is about communally-agreed upon informal laws, if that makes sense.

Oh, I fully understand. It amounts to mob rule. People are horrible, vicious creatures, given the opportunity to be. We had a system like you're describing in the Dark Ages.

Don't get me wrong, I think that just about every governmental model currently on the planet is fucked beyond usefulness. I also think having a highly codified set of laws, and fair application thereof (meaning, universal application thereof), should be the goal of society. The only thing keeping half our population in check right now is the fear of prison, or worse. This can't be applied on a community level, unless you cull all the criminals -- and that is antithetical to any sense of equality.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points3 points 15 years ago (10 children) | Copy Link

what i meant to say is that anarchy in its colloquial usage is not the same as anarchism. We've seen a few examples of working anarchism, namely Catalonia during the Spanish Civil War, parts of Ukraine during the Russian Civil War, reclaimed factories in Argentina as a result of the financial crisis of 2000-2001, etc. The secret is to have everybody be a contributor to the society, which weeds out tyrants, because tyrants are bad for everybody but the tyrant, and if everyone contributes, they won't put up with that shit. Of course, anarchism is always a work in progress. Some things work, some things don't, but it's important to keep working and keep trying, because I believe that most humans are generally good, and generally predisposed to work together.

The fair application of fair laws is essential, but I think the only way for that to happen (for it to be fair to everyone), is for communities to decentralize themselves from larger bodies and collectively agree on how they want to live in that community.

I heavily disagree with your take on prisons. Fear of prison is demonstrably shown to be completely ineffective. There's a vast literature on the subject of the efficacy of prison and punishment, and the general consensus is that the prison culture in the US is mostly good for the prison industry itself, not for society.

[–][deleted] 3 points4 points5 points 15 years ago (8 children) | Copy Link

The fair application of fair laws is essential, but I think the only way for that to happen (for it to be fair to everyone), is for communities to decentralize themselves from larger bodies and collectively agree on how they want to live in that community.

The US tried to do this, with each state deciding their own laws in most areas. It doesn't work. You end up with people on one side of the street facing a year for hypothetical crime X, and on the other side of the street, life in prison.

You also end up with communities heavily biased towards an ideology (let's just use Christianity as an example) who will relentlessly persecute any minority in their area of influence for not sharing their views. Does anyone really want bible belt communities "communally deciding" that gays should be burned at the stake? An extreme example, maybe even in the realm of hyperbole, but it's distinctly possible, along with lynchings and all kinds of other fun stuff.

When I say a highly codified system of laws, and universal application thereof, I mean over as large a population as is feasible. It's ridiculous for a social transgression to carry a different penalty (often vastly different) in different towns, states, whatever, in the same country which professes equality of its citizens. The same applies for civil rights and liberties.

[–][deleted] -1 points0 points1 point 15 years ago (7 children) | Copy Link

well I believe in incremental change being necessary for anarchism to function. You obviously can't go directly from bible belt homophobes and hatemongers to anarchism. It's all a work in progress, but those sorts of attitudes need to be fought. They're fucking up their own communities, and fucking themselves over, so consumed with divisive horseshit that they act against their own interests time after time after time. You can't just draw lines on the map around preexisting communities and say 'oops! they're dysfunctional! anarchism doesn't work'.

And let's just say that the US state system is fucked and was fucked from the beginning, because they weren't natural communities, but British colonies literally formed from drawing lines on a map to separate the governorships.

All this shit is a process.

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I agree, but I don't think that it's inherent to them. There is lots of evidence that people are naturally altruistic and predisposed to cooperation, but I think for a lot of people, that's conditioned out of them. We are taught every day in our society not to give a fuck about the next person, how we should always try and get ahead, etc. But I don't think its natural, I think it's trained. For me, anarchism IS a pipe dream, but it's a useful pipe dream, because it creates the ideal to start working towards, and the work itself is the most useful part, because you're making real progress against corrosive actions and ideologies that harm people and planet. It's easy to get strung out thinking about everything that's wrong and thinking only about the "end result", you just gotta take it one step at a time.

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Some of my personal favourites:

I think we should just ban trolls like this immediately. There is nothing redeeming to them; they aren't comrades that we can call out and win over; there's no point in it.

"Unless they agree with us, or we have a good chance of convincing them, they should be banned from discussion (ie, echo-chamber ONLY from now on) - yup, that's a Feminist...

9 times out of 10 I completely agree, but I think in this instance it was obvious deliberate trolling, the person was only here for one reason and a warning would be seen as a badge of honour.

in my defense, I was merely gleefully pointing out hypocrisy, double standards, sexism, and an ideology that runs directly ccounter to their stated aims being in control of the reddit - which I continue to find hilarious.

The language used was demonstrative of white supremacist views. I have no hard proof of this. However, I do have 15 years of textual converse experience.

I'm a racist? Oh wait, there's no proof of this except the opinion of the poster (couched in flowery language no less).. Gee, why am I not surprised to see baseless accusations of racism and sexism from these 'free thinking anarchists'? Could it be the rank herd-mentality?

Really, who cares? It's just fun, as I said, to point and laugh...

this comment is full of some pretty explicitly bullshit misogyny. Choice quotes:

I believe that women have so lost touch with men and reality that they have reduced THEMSELVES to little more than a vagina with a support system.

and

Those aren't patriarchal structures, those are women's sexual preferences...get it straight.

Read the rest, though, because it's pretty fucked. I'm kind of enraged (yeah, I fell hard for the troll) right now, so I'm going to leave because if I stick around I'm going to do something rash.

PS - I don't guarantee this, but if this shit ends up being seen as acceptable then I'm fucking out of here, and somebody better demod me before I breach process and ban this dude. I don't want to make this subreddit more uninhabitable than it is now, so I don't want to have to do that.

Yes, please read the comments. Then, notice not one of these intellectual giants could dispute ANYTHING I've said...

And I left holes in those posts you culd drive a Mack Truck through....on purpose for crying out loud!

Intellectual lightweights seem to gravitate toward Anarchy (my days as a Punk in my youth can attest)...

[–]mean0dean0 2 points3 points4 points 15 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

What I find really cognitively dissonant is when feminist redditors get extremely offended for any negative view of women as a gender or feminine privilege as a social construct, when 25+ years of feminist theory has perpetuated the myth that men as a gender and patriarchal privilege as a social construct is not only negative, but demonic, destructive, tyrannical, and totalizing for all men, regardless of whether they actually do anything patriarchal.

This sort of viewpoint completely obfuscates the fact that men work harder and longer, in more dangerous environments, die sooner as a result, and still must pay the lion's share of their time, money, and blood to keep this wonderfully safe world in which women live going. You can tell when men are REALLY a problem when gangs of child soldiers rape and torture just to keep people in line; when women are sold as chattel and beaten into submission, then used as baby-making machines until they die of exhaustion or injury. Men of the West recognize how evil these things are, and literally millions of them have died in the past two centuries to make sure that those evils stop at our borders--even going so far as killing our own citizens who won't stop doing evil (good old War Between the States).

Women in the west REALLY don't know how good they've got it here; a few months in Iran would learn them a thing or two about recognizing your own damn privilege.

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I admit, I used to be one of the people who demanded the daily concern troll posts be banned, but after hearing the arguments in a thread in r/MR, I changed my mind. Let them say whatever stupid shit they want to say that way we can downvote it.
I love it whenever people in other subreddits bash r/MR with the same old "that subreddit is so misogynistic," or, "they just call women whores and sluts there" yet can they never seem to link any upvoted comment that is actually demeaning to women.

I think the recent drama in r/anarchism is pretty indicative of what would happen in greater society if such radical feminists are put in charge. They aren't interested in discussion, unless it echoes their own beliefs. Anything that calls into question their version of the truth needs to be silenced.

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Look.... We don't really care to go to your subreddit and vote on your spam filter.

It's not just about that, as you should very well know. This is about unjust actions by the moderators.

You've gotten so paranoid you're even attacking your own members now and bypassing your own voting system by trying to say we are corrupting it.

I think you should take a look at my comment history, I'm one of the ones calling for the heads of the moderators. I believe that I'm partially responsible for QueerCoup stepping down.

Hell, it's likely I defended you when they banned you.

Don't you see what's happening - you are giving into "we've dissolved elections and only allow real anarchists(as defined by the mods) to to have a voice in topics about mods"

That's definitely not what I'm giving in to. Again, my comment history will show that.

A few skewing votes from here, even if they were occurring, is the least of your problems right now.

Agreed, and in the thread we've moved to voting by commenting.

We've got one thread with < 100 posts... Look at what a third party is saying about you with nearly 300 posts

I've already seen that. It doesn't link to the voting thread like this one. Though, of course, some might wander in to r/A and see it.

[–][deleted] 3 points4 points5 points 15 years ago* (1 child) | Copy Link

Hell, it's likely I defended you when they banned you.

That is true

I'm just pointing out that the mods are trying to say that even linking to their subreddit is calling in a brigade, then using that to say why any call for their stepping down as mods is invalid. It isn't based on logic or an actual threat - it is just misdirection they are using to silence dissent.

Also enkiam is crazy, like paranoid delusional dangerous crazy. You can't fight that with logic or voting. enkiam will never willingly relinquish power, especially not while they think any challenge to their power is the enemy trying to infiltrate. The thing to watch out for there is when they feel power slipping away - they will try to utterly destroy the subreddit - "better to have it die pure than be co-opted" type logic. Watch out for that, they'll be the one to set the fire.

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There's two camps here that I've seen. One that wishes to defend "male-ness" being erroded as a concept and those dissatisfied with their male gender role. The latter group would probably fall under a feminist banner or two... such a dirty word here

There's a third: those who are concerned about an ever-expanding anti-male sentiment (re both gender AND sex) which they see as fostered and encouraged by many in the feminist movement (spec. gender-feminists). Many who self-identify as "feminists" like to frame that concern as "men scared of losing their privilege" and "misogyny". Instead of listening to our concerns, they attempt to demonize our viewpoint in some transparent attempt at avoiding cognitive dissonance...but transparent or opaque, it's still horribly demeaning.

I'm an MRA and I fully support equity-feminism (and many other MRAs do as well). Unfortunately, gender-feminists seem to have claimed the movement as their own (which, incidentally, is reflected in your problems over in /r/anarchism). Hearing them describe us, you would assume we're all a bunch of crazy misogynists who just want to subjugate women...but we're not. Most of us just want to be treated as equals...and not punished just because we were born with reproductive organs on the outside. We see this anti-male rhetoric and recognize it as another march towards fascism...a march towards fascism wholly endorsed by those in positions of power (MSM, the state, etc.)...and that is fucking scary. Are there misogynists who ally themselves with the MRM? Absolutely, but most of us are not and we do our best to marginalize those who are.

If you're legitimately interested in figuring out what the MRM is all about, listen to these. Warren Farrell is a prominent voice within the MRM...and prior to his advocating MR issues, he was a prominent voice within the feminist movement.

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As a moderator, I hope you realize that the radical feminists stepping down means little by itself. The environment that let them seize power and abuse it is the real issue. I don't know you and don't really respect that you seemed to have sat this whole thing out though. You could have intervened.

dbzer0 was the best of you though, and that's why it had to be him that banned me, under very specific conditions, to set everything else in motion. Then it was just clockwork, all of your own design and destiny, leading inevitably to the events of yesterday and today. MRA downvote brigades were never the real threat, it was all internal, and you were blinded to it by the crusade formed against us.

I think you still don't get it - why dbzer0 siding with the neomods was a loss for /r/anarchism overall. I also think you never really got the full meaning of protecting even those you disagree with. It isn't the easy ones to protect that are important - it is the hard ones to support that ultimately mean the most.

Eh... whatever. None of you listened two weeks ago, I doubt you will now.

[–]Imsomniland 3 points4 points5 points 15 years ago (7 children) | Copy Link

The environment that let them seize power and abuse it is the real issue

I don't disagree with this. A lot of it also has to do with personality types. People are often angry from other reasons due to RL and come into /r/A sub with the patience of someone whose hung out on coke.

I don't know you and don't really respect that you seemed to have sat this whole thing out though. You could have intervened.

That's fair. One of my reasons for staying though is specifically to try and keep certain mods in check. At least that's what I tell myself. I like db0 for example, but I didn't want to step down and leave him to keep everyone accountable.

Then it was just clockwork, all of your own design and destiny, leading inevitably to the events of yesterday and today.

You make it sound like there's a certain plan. There are no plans, at least none that I'm involved in.

MRA downvote brigades were never the real threat, it was all internal, and you were blinded to it by the crusade formed against us.

It doesn't help that MRA gets called into /r/A every couple days or so (such as littlepinkies thread that was made here in /r/MRA that said "don't worry guys I got your back in /r/A"). Ultimately there's no way to prove it one way or another, it all depends on how things are perceived. Each individual believes in their own righteousness and in the rightness of their cause. There's no crusade against the MRA sub, there is strong opposition to the ideology believed by MRA that is plastered over in /r/A everytime it gets linked.

I also think you never really got the full meaning of protecting even those you disagree with.

I've got a degree in poli-sci. J. S. Mill wrote On Liberty, and in it argued that freedom of speech is important because truth drives out falsehood among other reasons such as "diversity of opinion" is important to diverse populous participating in the formation of the rule of law.

That said: The open nature of reddit means that truth can't drive out falsehoods because there individuals who have no agenda other than trolling. Trolling is some J.S. Mill does not cover, and in Internet terms is probably the most harmful act perpetrated to obstruct discussion. If there weren't trolls, I would half agree with you that freedom of speech is important. As it is though, trolls are not driven out by "truth" but instead get their jollies off. You can not feed the troll, but there always seems to be ONE person who does and there also seems to be an endless supply of trolls who make their rounds.

J.S. Mills also wrote, in his same essay:

"That the only purpose for which power can be rightfully exercised over any member of a civilized community, against his will, is to prevent harm to others."

This is the argument in favor of censorship. Words do hurt some people, particularly misogynistic and racial words that perpetuate ideologies that have real-life repercussions. You wouldn't let an asshole enter your home and mock your children. You wouldn't let a racist enter your home and use racially charged language to threaten your black friend. Can you tell me why it is so important to protect the voice of the racist and the asshole?

[–][deleted] 3 points4 points5 points 15 years ago* (6 children) | Copy Link

Can you tell me why it is so important to protect the voice of the racist and the asshole?

Of course, easily. Before I do though, I'd like to point out that you are posting about this topic in our forum, where you are welcome to. We aren't going to try to ban you for it. We aren't going to kick you out just because you don't agree with us about certain topics. Please understand that right from the start, you are enjoying a freedom in this subreddit that I don't get in yours... and we aren't even making claims to be preventing oppression!

Now then - why should we protect the voice of an asshole? .. because it is all perception. You don't seriously think that the world is made up of good and bad people and your enemy just chose to be evil do you? It is made up of belief systems that are complex and gray and messy to deal with it. An asshole is just you from the opposite side. You really think that MRA's are just falsehoods and fools while your subreddit/feminists are infallible & true? You really bought into that whole propaganda that we are just misogynists and male supremacists and reactionaries who want women back in the kitchen? Do you even know what we actually stand for? At any rate, would you want the majority to silence your minority too? Would you fight back?

I made that argument already though, was called a liberal reactionary entryist for it. So let me put it in more practical terms - beyond all the moral handwringing. When you silence a voice you find uncomfortable, you set a precedent. You make it that much easier to silence it the next time, inching on and on outwards. That's what happened to your subreddit - creeping fundamentalist ideology.

First you went for the trolls, because they were easy to spot. Who would defend them?
Then you went for the misogynists and anti-feminists, because you extended the troll umbrella to them. Only a few would defend them.
Then you went for the "derailing" MRA's, because well, they are MRA's too and your militia was screaming that we were misogynist and that being anti-feminist is being un-anarchist. We were you know.. "derailing" discussions with our attempts to explain that we weren't.
Next you went for legitimate dissent, your own members, because they started to see the umbrella reaching towards them. "not real anarchists!"
Finally you turned on each other, because you couldn't tell friend from foe anymore. The moral compass was broken entirely.
Then it all collapsed into chaos. Who is right? Who is legitimate? Who is justified in wielding the power against the others? You know you should be careful yourself posting here now. If they come for you, who will speak for you?

You never pulled back though, never stopped to ask what was too far... each time you gave into someone shouting "oppressor!" and "reactionary!" and let them silence the others. I'm sure you are aware of the slippery slope fallacy, but this isn't that. This is animal farm played out in your subreddit - first the easy targets, then the next, always needing some enemy to justify the radical feminist mod's keeping and using control. Eventually you had a real problem on your hands, power hungry mods who were acting just like your supposed enemy did.

Where did it start though? It started when you didn't defend the uncomfortable, when you let people make up reasons to ban instead of following your own rules about it, when you decided a group was the enemy instead of their ideas - which I still don't think you even know. Then you let them demonize that group, misrepresented their beliefs, then gave power to a group claiming to fight them. You let all this happen because you didn't defend those who needed to be - because you were too concerned with a singular message, too convinced of your own infallibility of ideology against the abstract enemy you'd made up yourself!

You don't have to openly agree with anything I said, because there is a price if you do. You'll be the next littlepinkies. .. but you defend the rights of assholes to speak, because if you don't, eventually the fundamentalists will come for you too and there won't be anyone left to defend your right to speak either.

Some of your comrades saw that happening before you did, and that's why you've got riots and protests on your hands. dbzer0 understood what was happening but was helpless to stop it by then. The feminist mantras by then had become beyond criticism. Any criticism tagged you as a reactionary/not-real-anarchist/apologizer/patriarchal-defender/privileged/etc - to speak out was to be silenced, and many were.

The real irony here, is that you helped us greatly in the end - you became a glaring example of why blind faith and belief in feminism can quickly become oppressive - why we decided to stand up to feminists who try to push us around in the first place.

You vindicated us when you didn't stand up for us - and all of reddit saw

[–]Imsomniland 2 points3 points4 points 15 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

I'm sure you are aware of the slippery slope fallacy, but this isn't that.

Your whole argument is based off of a slippery slope that banning certain people will inevitably lead to banning everyone else. Slippery slopes are usually logical fallacy's without evidence...which you claimed to provide with your adaptation of Martin Niemöller's "First they came for the socialist" etc. Unfortunately your evidence falls flat because that's not how it went. The mods who have advocated for banning trolls/misogynist/MRAs... have been saying that from the start. lol, there was no gradual giving of ground. There have been certain mods from the start who have gone after fellow mods, who have tried to make other mods jump through hoops and generally harassed them. Certain mods have been saying it from the very start and the influx of people who are offended by them get their friends together and invade /r/A, making it harder for there to be any kind of sane or rational mediation of conflict. The opposite actually was happening too after all the mods were de-modded a couple months ago, there was little acceptance or willingness to ban anarcho-capitalists. The whole lambasting mods as femi-nazis is actually what has made things worse because it's directly fueled the arguments made by those aforementioned mods.

Then you let them demonize that group, misrepresented their beliefs, then gave power to a group claiming to fight them.

Sure are lots of, again, unsubstantiated "you's" being tossed around.

The real irony here, is that you helped us greatly in the end - you became a glaring example of why blind faith and belief in feminism can quickly become oppressive - why we decided to stand up to feminists who try to push us around in the first place.

Well don't throw a party yet, you still may have the chance to continue playing the victim. lol But seriously, you make feminists out to be some group that's out to get you. Would it surprise you to know that there are anarchists who are feminists who are opposed to moderators and banning? Or would that destroy your strawman which keeps you alive amidst your oppression?

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Title	The radical feminist mods of r/anarchism have finally pushed the community too far, members revolt.
Author	[deleted]
Upvotes	42
Comments	159
Date	November 16, 2010 9:30 AM UTC (15 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/e6vl2/the_radical_feminist_mods_of_ranarchism_have/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/the-radical-feminist-mods-of-ranarchism-have.1045953 https://theredarchive.com/post/1045953

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