I copied the "You are not a princess" blog to my okcupid.com journal for some discussion. It got a little out of hand so I invited the author to join in. She did....

cookiexcmonster · 2010-01-07T16:08:44+00:00

One huge wall of text, hope this makes it easier to read?

I'm the author of the above article. I'm replying to this comment thread per Derek's email request earlier today.

Context My blog, Shrink4Men, is a resource for men who are in or are recovering from abusive relationships in which the female partner is the abuser. For those of you who believe that only men are abusive, think again. Recent studies show that women are just as likely (if not more likely) to be emotionally/psychologically/verbally abusive as their male counterparts. It's called, "relational aggression." In regard to physical violence, the gap between male vs. female perpetrators isn't that great and may be closer to 50-50. http://www.canadiancrc.com/Newspaper_Articles/What_About_Girls_Aggression_Ohio_State_1997.aspx http://kamerondkiggins.blogspot.com/2009/09/truthiness-about-feminsim.html http://www.insidehighered.com/news/2009/07/16/violence (No Gender Gap for Victims of Violence) http://rcp.missouri.edu/articles/olson-femaleaggression.html http://www.batteredmen.com/carrgeo4.htm http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LlFAd4YdQks (Reaction to Women Abusing Men in Public)

Making Assumptions I don’t think all women are like this and am not sure how some of the commenters here arrived at this conclusion, although knee jerk reactions, taking things out of context and defensiveness probably has a lot to do with it. I’m not like the kind of woman I describe. The women who participate on my site aren't like this. My friends and most of the women in my family aren’t like this. There are many other women I don't personally know who don’t have these attitudes, beliefs and behaviors either. However, many women do, which is why I felt it necessary to write the article. Of course, men aren't blameless either. Men often perpetuate these behaviors by not putting their foot down and setting boundaries or because they believe that this is “normal” female behavior and have resigned themselves to it. Alternatively, perhaps some men have resigned themselves to this kind of female entitlement and acting out because of the incredible backlash when anyone criticizes a woman, even when the criticism is legitimate and merited. Entitlement and abusive behaviors aren't okay from either sex. These behaviors and attitudes in either gender are unacceptable. Public censure of these behaviors in men is commonplace, but no one seems to be calling women out on the carpet for their equally egregiously bad behaviors. In fact, these female behaviors are often tolerated, indulged and sometimes glamorized. Whereas if a man behaves like this he's portrayed as a ridiculous, entitled, out of control buffoon. My website was intentionally created to provide a resource for men who have been with or who are currently involved with the kind of women I describe in the above post as well as abusive personality disordered women. If you’re not “that woman” there’s no need to get worked up or defensive about it. My take away message for both sexes is the Golden Rule: Treat others the way you want to be treated and no double standards.

Putting the Marital Relationship First If by putting your marriage first you think I mean ignoring, neglecting, abandoning or exclusively pursuing your own desires to the detriment of your children then, to paraphrase Marc Rudov, you're probably not intelligent enough to have kids. Here are links to other articles that also explain my point: http://www.csmonitor.com/Commentary/Opinion/2008/0826/p09s01-coop.html http://www.enotalone.com/article/4333.html http://www.thelaboroflove.com/articles/why-should-marriage-come-first-before-your-children/ This is not a new concept. Neglecting you spouse usually leads to, at the very least, an unhappy spouse and quite possibly divorce. A strong marital relationship makes for healthier, happier kids. Same thing goes for men who neglect their wife and make their career the priority. Although, to be fair, isn't providing shelter and food for your family an act of love---especially if the wife isn’t contributing financially? For those of you who are poised to interject, “But it’s the man’s responsibility to take care of the family!” here’s an FYI: This isn’t the Victorian era. Providing for one's family is not just the man's responsibility.

Sex Of course, a woman shouldn't feel obligated to have sex if she doesn't want to and neither should a man. Whether you believe it or not, there are plenty of men who feel like they have to give command sexual performances for their wives/gf's when she's in the mood even if he isn't. These are usually the same guys who have most of their intimacy overtures rejected and walk on eggshells around their spouses. As an added bonus, when a man isn't in the mood, he also often gets taunted about his masculinity or lack thereof---yet another double standard. Using sex to control, shame or hurt your husband/boyfriend by withholding affection or making sex transactional is unhealthy and wrong. I'm not sure how to make this more clear. I'm not advocating that women have sex against their will. However, withholding sex to punish, control or extort behaviors or material goods is not indicative of a healthy relationship. Furthermore, to quote one of my readers who read this OKCupid comment thread: "I did get a chuckle out of one exchange about how 'women withhold sex!' / 'yeah, well, men withhold money!' I didn't realize that making a transaction out of the two was legal outside of Nevada :)" If you're a woman or a man who withholds affection from your spouse for the reasons I mention, don't be surprised when he or she eventually seeks affection outside of the marriage.

Stay at Home Spouses I wasn’t suggesting that a woman whose husband affords her the privilege (not the right) to stay at home should prostrate herself in gratitude and thank her husband/bf around the clock. Many women take their husband’s financial support for granted. Even Oprah had a show on this. Men want to feel appreciated and valued just like women do. I think it’s important for women to let their husbands/bf’s know that you appreciate them and are proud they go out in the world everyday to earn money to support the family, so that their wives/gf’s don’t have to. Likewise, men whose wives/gf’s stay at home and actually do the household chores, should also receive appreciation for what they do. This also applies if the husband/bf is the one who stays at home. In a healthy relationship, both parties contribute their fair share and mutually respect and value each other’s contributions even if they’re not exactly the same contributions. Furthermore, I have no problem if one half of a couple becomes a stay at home mom or dad, so long as it’s mutually agreed upon before having kids and doesn’t become a financially abusive situation. It’s a valid choice for many families. However, husbands and wives should be aware of the possible repercussions of this choice should they later divorce, which is, statistically speaking, a coin toss with the odds favoring divorce. Men who allow their wives to not work and also foolishly hand over financial control to the non-working spouse are giving their spouses the weapons to control and destroy them later on. Contrary to what some people have written here, divorce and family court is frequent unjust. Go spend a day at one your local courtrooms if you don't think so. Talk to a seasoned and reputable mediator or divorce attorney and ask them how fair they think the system is.

Making your Partner Happy Yes it’s important and good to do things you know that will please and make your partner happy. I wasn’t advocating a “Screw You-Me First” mentality. If a person isn’t able to soothe themselves and take care of their own happiness, it’s highly unlikely that their partner will be able to make them happy either. In this scenario, one partner makes his or her happiness contingent upon the actions of their partner and other external factors. This is almost always a recipe for disappointment and resentment in both parties. Nothing is ever good enough for Wife while the Husband is continuously jumping through hoops try to try to make her happy. Just when he meets her conditions for her to finally be happy, she raises the bar again and he becomes a performing monkey. You can also reverse the gender roles in the previous example. Additionally, in a healthy relationship both partners provide emotional support, but this often crosses the line when one partner becomes totally dependent on the other partner for their emotional well-being. Okay Derek, I think I've addressed all the major points and hope this clarifies things a bit.

Dr Tara J. Palmatier, PsyD http://shrink4men.wordpress.com

ignatiusloyola · 2010-01-07T16:55:50+00:00

People don't understand the "Withhold sex" comments. You may want to explain that "not withholding sex" and "obligated to have sex" are different. "Withholding sex" is when a partner says "I am not having sex with you because of ..." If a partner does not feel like having sex, then there is no reason they should be forced or obligated to have sex.

But to use it to manipulate the other partner into getting what they want, that is something completely different.

rmbarnes · 2010-01-07T22:18:12+00:00

Your polarizing statements are polarizing

An amazing insight there from one of the articles comments.

cookiexcmonster · 2010-01-07T17:59:37+00:00

tl;dr Sorry shrink lady, be more concise. Your article is remains utter shite.

Ha, how is she supposed to make an adequate response to the 30 different critiques in just a small paragraph? Some of those responses were ridiculous. Try seeing things from other people's perspectives for once and try checking out the monkeysphere article!

sylvan · 2010-01-07T15:47:01+00:00

That certainly makes for an interesting discussion. And kudos for staying so reasonable in the debate.

2010-01-07T21:47:28+00:00

HEY I AM JUST GOING TO SKIM WHAT YOU POSTED AAND THEN REPLY TO SOMETHING DIFFERENT I HOPE THAT'S OKAY.

Is three quarters of the responses you received.

2010-01-07T22:30:32+00:00

[permanently deleted]

shadowboxer47 · 2010-01-07T16:42:56+00:00

Wow, I cannot believe the absolutely inanity being spewed on those responses. I thought her points were very well reasoned.

Just blows my mind.

plagues · 2010-01-07T19:19:36+00:00

You're adding to the problem, not being part of the solution. I would hesitate to date you as it appears you have a chip on your shoulder or you don't really like or respect women much.

christ! really? but if you posted the same article, yet against men she probably would've jumped on you like a wolf on a lamb. i just more feel like the movement for women has shifted all attention on every aspect of their life and their gender role, but left men in the dark still as the 50s guy who has to bring home the bacon and be the strong manly man. just tired of gender roles, period, but feminists care more about how women are treated and gender role'd and couldn't give less of a shit about men.

Kuonji · 2010-01-07T16:49:35+00:00

Some seriously chivalrous douchebags commenting there.

INTPLibrarian · 2010-01-08T03:30:23+00:00

This was a good comment, and probably sums up why most women on okcupid.com thought replied with "fuck you" to the article.

"The entire list is gross because it presupposes that only women do this shit, men are shining beacons of virtue, and women must be lectured to as if they are mindless, petulant children."

amylase · 2010-01-07T20:22:49+00:00

As a female, I agree with pretymuch everything there... except number 17. The one about putting your SO before your kids. WTF? Firstly, why should you have to put them in order? That isn't what familly is about! Secondly, your SO is (or should be) an independent grown-up; your children are completely your responsibility, unable to lokk after themselves. I'm not saying that you should love them more, but they definitely need more attention.

BitterDivorcedDad · 2010-01-09T18:38:58+00:00

No wonder people say OKCupid is for losers.

INTPLibrarian · 2010-01-07T18:29:26+00:00

I don’t think all women are like this and am not sure how some of the commenters here arrived at this conclusion

I think this is actually the cause of a lot of the anger in the comments. That is, the commenters read the post in the context of an OKCupid post, not in the context of a blog specifically geared towards "men who are in or are recovering from abusive relationships in which the female partner is the abuser."

That really makes a huge difference in how to read the tone. Standing alone, it reads as though the author is claiming all or most women are like this AND that only women make a lot of these assumptions. In the context of the original blog, there's a specific audience of men and of women that everything is geared towards.

Look at it this way: Try imagining if I wrote a similar post FOR women who were in or recovering from an abusive relationship with a man. If I wrote, for example, "Men, you are NOT allowed to hit a woman simply because you can't find the right words to express your anger," without knowing the context, it would look like I was saying that ALL men are likely to hit out of anger, can't express their emotions, and also that this ONLY applies to men. That wouldn't be the case because of the context, though.

Btw, I didn't read through all of the comments, so I can't address all of the insanity that may have been posted. I just wanted to try an explain why I, as a woman, initially DID feel defensive reading that, until I found the original context.

*Edit: p.s. Hey, OP, we have 94% Match, 82% Friend, 6% Enemy. Pretty damn good, I'd say! If you weren't lots and lots of miles away from me, I'd offer to buy ya a drink!

storyofitall · 2010-01-08T17:47:49+00:00

Random question for the sake of discussion:

Say you are a guy with a great job on a "career track" and your wife is too. You have a child and eventually choose as a family that one of the parents should stay home with the children until they are in High School. In this case, the guy becomes a "stay-home" dad and takes 14 years off from his "career track" to be a stay home dad. Suddenly, you divorce. Should the wife have to pay alimony to the husband? For how long? Remember that he has dedicated 14 years to making a family and supporting his wife by taking care of the family so that she can work to financially support the family.

pressed · 2010-01-07T22:16:45+00:00

?

If the whole thing had been written as "this is how people should treat each other" rather than "this is how women should not treat men" it would have been far less objectionable.

maryhadlamb · 2010-01-08T01:15:02+00:00

This is such a heavy handed thing to choose to represent yourself on your dating profile. Do you really want the first thing people learn about you is " Chivalry is Dead" ?

ponyolovesHAM · 2010-01-07T18:24:06+00:00

Blocked at work :(

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