Complaining about Feminism

LouisdeRouvroy · 2022-07-20T01:26:12+00:00

You can't pretend to solve an issue before identifying the problem.

Describing feminism for what it is isn't complaining about it. It's identifying a problem in order to solve it.

Ownyourfreedom · 2022-07-20T01:19:55+00:00

Watch the first half hour of the new Bill Burr special. He hits the nail on the head hard on feminism.

TheSnesLord · 2022-07-20T02:29:26+00:00

What's your response to this?

Men's Rights is a consequence of the misandry of Feminism.

PandaFoo1 · 2022-07-20T03:06:30+00:00

Feminists claim to speak for men whilst actively working against solving many of our problems & outright misrepresenting them. Of course people who care about men’s issues will criticise feminism.

Jesus_marley · 2022-07-20T03:09:47+00:00

Feminism is an ideology. Arguably it can be classified as a religion. In either case, it is absolutely subject to examination and criticism of its failings, specifically in the assumptions that inform it's various conclusions.

tenchineuro · 2022-07-20T02:37:27+00:00

A lot of criticism of the men's rights movement comes in the from of the accusation that it complains a lot about feminism.

Also, since you seem data deprived, it seems time for Karen Straughan's 'no true feminist' post which gives a laundry list of what feminist has been up to...

So what you're saying is that you, a commenter using a username on an internet forum are the true feminist, and the feminists actually responsible for changing the laws, writing the academic theory, teaching the courses, influencing the public policies, and the massive, well-funded feminist organizations with thousands and thousands of members all of whom call themselves feminists... they are not "real feminists".
That's not just "no true Scotsman". That's delusional self deception.
Listen, if you want to call yourself a feminist, I don't care. I've been investigating feminism for more than 9 years now, and people like you used to piss me off, because to my mind all you were doing was providing cover and ballast for the powerful political and academic feminists you claim are just jerks. And believe me, they ARE jerks. If you knew half of what I know about the things they've done under the banner of feminism, maybe you'd stop calling yourself one.
But I want you to know. You don't matter. You're not the director of the Feminist Majority Foundation and editor of Ms. Magazine, Katherine Spillar, who said of domestic violence: "Well, that's just a clean-up word for wife-beating," and went on to add that regarding male victims of dating violence, "we know it's not girls beating up boys, it's boys beating up girls."
You're not Jan Reimer, former mayor of Edmonton and long-time head of Alberta's Network of Women's Shelters, who just a few years ago refused to appear on a TV program discussing male victims of domestic violence, because for her to even show up and discuss it would lend legitimacy to the idea that they exist.
You're not Mary P Koss, who describes male victims of female rapists in her academic papers as being not rape victims because they were "ambivalent about their sexual desires" (if you don't know what that means, it's that they actually wanted it), and then went on to define them out of the definition of rape in the CDC's research because it's inappropriate to consider what happened to them rape.
You're not the National Organization for Women, and its associated legal foundations, who lobbied to replace the gender neutral federal Family Violence Prevention and Services Act of 1984 with the obscenely gendered Violence Against Women Act of 1994. The passing of that law cut male victims out of support services and legal assistance in more than 60 passages, just because they were male.
You're not the Florida chapter of the NOW, who successfully lobbied to have Governor Rick Scott veto not one, but two alimony reform bills in the last ten years, bills that had passed both houses with overwhelming bipartisan support, and were supported by more than 70% of the electorate.
You're not the feminist group in Maryland who convinced every female member of the House on both sides of the aisle to walk off the floor when a shared parenting bill came up for a vote, meaning the quorum could not be met and the bill died then and there.
You're not the feminists in Canada agitating to remove sexual assault from the normal criminal courts, into quasi-criminal courts of equity where the burden of proof would be lowered, the defendant could be compelled to testify, discovery would go both ways, and defendants would not be entitled to a public defender.
You're not Professor Elizabeth Sheehy, who wrote a book advocating that women not only have the right to murder their husbands without fear of prosecution if they make a claim of abuse, but that they have the moral responsibility to murder their husbands.
You're not the feminist legal scholars and advocates who successfully changed rape laws such that a woman's history of making multiple false allegations of rape can be excluded from evidence at trial because it's "part of her sexual history."
You're not the feminists who splattered the media with the false claim that putting your penis in a passed-out woman's mouth is "not a crime" in Oklahoma, because the prosecutor was incompetent and charged the defendant under an inappropriate statute (forcible sodomy) and the higher court refused to expand the definition of that statute beyond its intended scope when there was already a perfectly good one (sexual battery) already there. You're not the idiot feminists lying to the public and potentially putting women in Oklahoma at risk by telling potential offenders there's a "legal" way to rape them.
And you're none of the hundreds or thousands of feminist scholars, writers, thinkers, researchers, teachers and philosophers who constructed and propagate the body of bunkum theories upon which all of these atrocities are based.
You're the true feminist. Some random person on the internet.

EmirikolWoker · 2022-07-20T05:29:40+00:00

The foundational principles of all flavours of feminism (class warfare between men and women with men winning, shorthanded as "Patriarchy") are inherrently anti-male when you examine what needs to be true for it to accurately describe reality. Feminists can claim that it's "just about equality", but it's equality based on bigotted assumptions, presuming psychopathy on the part of men as a class.

Mens rights advocacy, and Egalitarian values in general, are innately anti-feminist.

tenchineuro · 2022-07-20T02:33:08+00:00

I don't know if you're serious or not, but feminism is more interested in harming men than helping women. Feminism has even written laws requiring the police to arrest male DV victims of females.

In 1996 or so feminists wrote the Violence Against Women Act (VAWA) which among other things denies male DV victims recognition as DV victims and denies any resources to male DV victims. But that was not enough, some female abusers were still being arrested and feminism could not support that, so in the next VAWA re-authorization feminism changed the previous Primary Aggressor model to the feminist written Duluth Model. What is the Duluth Model you might ask?

Duluth is predicated on the "patriarchal terrorism" paradigm of partner violence. That is, men beat their female partners in order to assert masculine dominance within their relationships. Their motives are to conform to patriarchal norms and to reify a the patriarchal social/political/cultural order of male dominance and female subordination within the home.
Under this faulty model, women cannot, as a conceptual matter, perpetrate partner abuse. If they hit their male partners, it was in self defense. If they hit first, or are the only partner who hits, they are doing it within the context of "violent resistance" against presumed emotional or psychological abuse on his part.

Because the VAWA also requires mandatory arrest policies, the VAWA + Duluth literally requires police to arrest male DV victims of females.

dw87190 · 2022-07-20T01:52:49+00:00

Calling feminists narcissists isn't bashing them either. It's simply assessing their psychological profiles

g1455ofwater · 2022-07-20T05:17:53+00:00

Men's rights should be lauded for criticizing feminism. It's doing something good against an evil force in an oppressive environment. Of course getting unfair feminist laws changed or abusive feminist leaders removed from power is obviously a much greater accomplishment deserving of significantly more acclaim.

1throwaw4y432 · 2022-07-20T06:26:14+00:00

Feminism deserves every criticism it gets, but mens rights go much further than that, hitting at the core of the human psyche. Anti-male bias is a real phenomenon across cultures and changing it will be a gargantuan task. Probably the hardest social change that will ever have to be made.

SpookieDookie483 · 2022-07-20T10:39:26+00:00

I say f@%$& feminism. I don't care what others think.

DavidByron2 · 2022-07-20T13:49:19+00:00

Feminism is a hate movement. It's like complaining that Jewish Civil Rights groups complain a lot about Nazis.

It's an offensive accusation that basically behind it is saying "discriminating against and attacking men is OK so why do you bitch about it?"

it's almost impossible for a man to be a feminist without harbouring deep hatred for himself

Well sure. Him and all men. But people tend to skip past family. It's no different than a female feminist hating her own father, brother and son. It's a toxic movement to belong to sure enough but that goes for both sexes.

Elizabeth Cady Stanton was a pioneer feminist and she was only able to do it because of the full financial and emotional support from the men in her life yet she foisted this man hating crap on the world. Hate doesn't make sense.

Constantly apologizing and adjusting listening to irrational rants of frustrated women

Well all men have to do that somewhat. Women too, to some extent and to the extent they are mentally healthy individuals. But I imagine much more so if you're a male feminist, yes.

TracyMorganFreeman · 2022-07-20T14:58:07+00:00

Institutional feminism is an obstacle to men's rights.

It is not the cause of all men's problems but it is the cause of some. It monopolizes the conversation to women's perspectives only so it prevents solutions to men's rights even it isnt the cause of it.

It is a movement of weaponized opportunism under the veneer of equality, and does so by robbing women of agency, treating them as fickle mush headed children with no rationality or initiative of their own(women are making the "wrong" choices because of culture!).

It harms men and women alike.

Morrighan1129 · 2022-07-20T16:39:42+00:00

The idea that feminists push is that the MRA's don't care about men being raised up, only about bringing women down.

Which they then use to justify their behavior, saying that men are so violent, and hate women so much, that they don't care about anything but 'bringing down feminists'.

Which, makes sense: that's how they view the world, so they think everyone else is as terrible and awful as they are lol.

iainmf · 2022-07-20T06:31:13+00:00

Equality: Feminists can criticise the MRM and MRAs can criticise the feminist movement.

Yoramus · 2022-07-20T13:40:02+00:00

First of all feminism deserves a very harsh criticism.

However MRA should also move on if they wish to achieve something.

MRAs should accept that a consistent portion of powerful feminist will do everything in their power to undermine them and work with that assumption. We can still do a lot, but those of us who already saw feminism for what it is and afforded to get used to that should just stop focusing on criticizing them. They won't change.

arrouk · 2022-07-20T14:08:03+00:00

My response it that it is a very pot calling the kettle black statement. If they don't have the self awareness to stfu then I don't have the time energy or patience to keep talking to them.

CucumberAdditional39 · 2022-07-20T14:30:28+00:00

The men's rights movement is difficult to separate from chauvinism and misogyny in some feminists minds. Feminists have the term misandry, but no common use separation between feminism and the women's rights movement. i.e. the term meninism isn't the opposite of feminism. The men's rights movement is treated as the opposite of both feminism and women's rights at the same time. Hence some people view men's rights as incompatible with women's rights and assume that being in favor of men's rights means being against women's rights.

This is exacerbated by a series of policy trade offs and an "us vs them" mindset in polarized politics, which combined lead to statements like "The work and risk gap disproportionately adversely affect men" and "the pay gap disproportionately adversely affects women" when both are clearly casually linked, but neither polarized political group is willing to recognize both could simultaneously be issues.

Men work more overtime, take higher risk, and get pushed into productivity when at their own expense more than women. Men also virtually never get paternity leave relative to the few times women get maternity leave, and do get more average pay for equivalent positions and experience. The causal link is self evident when presented this way, but makes such a good example of one issue where to two sides won't meet. Feminists won't accept the evidence that men have these issues generally speaking qnd MRAs won't accept that women have these issues generally speaking. Hence, the statement "The pay gap is a myth" is much more common than "The pay gap exists and makes sense given the risk gap, work gap, and productivity gap". That following statement the feminists won't accept and hence the MRAs can't state which further polarizes the groups.

That is just one example of where the polarized views leads to such an "us vs them" approach.

Hence, advocating for men's rights is often viewed as subverting what feminists view as the higher priority of advocating for women's rights, and then treat as undermining and advocating against women's rights by extension.

I suspect this is an example of the causes for the men's rights vs women's rights polarization and hence the men's rights must be anti feminist presumption.

A similar thing happens where chauvinism's opposite roles into feminism. Misogyny's opposite is misandry and men's rights opposite is viewed as both feminism and women's rights advocacy. Chauvinism as an opposite also just falls under feminism whereby women that generally look down on men just also call themselves feminists instead of men hating.

DaBigVikin · 2022-07-20T16:26:11+00:00

I’m all for equal rights but it seems that everything more or less is catered towards the ladies, biological or transitioning, everything seems to support them regardless if they are lying about certain things. Certain thing being in court or just in general.

Equality is good but owning up to one’s actions and being willing to change and improve is better. Some lasses won’t think twice about messing with an ex’s life regardless of how the relationship ended.

Being out right labelled as a creep for being ugly and having not so good social skills also plays a part in how some lasses tear down blokes for no reason. At work, school or plain being in public. And because of the believe all women ideology some decent lads get thrown into jail and left to rot. Or worse they loose everything including the love and respect from their parents, I say that’s the worse because personally it is for me.

blaizken_420 · 2022-07-20T18:02:15+00:00

It's projection. All they do is complain about what men do.

63daddy · 2022-07-20T18:26:42+00:00

Much of the discrimination men face is a direct result of feminism. One can’t address the problem without acknowledging the cause.

crabbieinreddit · 2022-07-20T08:12:47+00:00

i think feminism should be the way as, by definition, its supposed to fight for equal rights for everyone, no matter the peoples gender. What in practice seems to be happening, is that they dont seem to listen mens troubles in todays society, so thats a problem for us and thats why mensrights has people in it. That said, feminism fighting only for womens rights isnt the same as feminism trumping down mens rights, they have rightfull claims too. One fights for one's injustices, the other for the other's, its not a fight between both, and they should engage in negotiating if needed because theire acting both against injustice.

Idk... my whole point is to say that the only thing im complaining about feminism is that they wont listen because they dont seem to realize that women can be prone to being as reluctant to listen what the other gender says, as men are. But that doesnt necessarily mean they are going against men. What means, is that someone needs to care for men, thats where mensrights comes in play. Of course, in all this, im excluding the more radical people

Eleusis713 · 2022-07-20T15:09:28+00:00

Many men's issues can be traced directly back to feminism. This is why many men's rights activists criticize feminism so much. You simply cannot talk about certain men's issues without acknowledging the role feminism has played in creating and perpetuating those issues. In order to effectively solve a problem, you need to first identify the source of that problem and it's often the case that the source of many men's issues traces back to feminism.

Feminism is an ideology, a set of beliefs and assumptions about the world and the way the world should work. It's not synonymous with "equal rights" or "women's equality". There is no ideology above criticism, feminism is no exception.

Title	Complaining about Feminism
Author	GoodBoyJohny
Upvotes	72
Comments	49
Date	July 20, 2022 1:17 AM UTC (4 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/w396zg/complaining_about_feminism/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/complaining-about-feminism.1124601 https://theredarchive.com/post/1124601

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