Historic MHRA rally in Toronto huge success

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[–]VortexCortex 5 points6 points7 points 12 years ago* (16 children) | Copy Link

From your first link:

Gay men have invented new technology, built cities, researched cures for disease, made profound contributions to the arts, literature and philosophy, excelled at athletics and participated wholly in every aspect of the development of civilization as we know it.

But of course, they did not do these things because they were gay. They did these things because they were men. Solving problems and making advances is what men do, and there is no evidence to suggest that gay men are any less proficient at it than straight men.

...

By refusing gays the right to get married, we are also refusing them many other rights taken for granted by the rest of the population.

...

It would seem sensible that since marriage, at least in western culture, is a religious institution, that men -all men- push for taking it out of the hands of government completely.

...

It is my hope that this movement comes to invite and include gay men within the ranks, not as gays, but as men. But I fear that this will take some real time; time for the very few within our ranks that actually hate gays for being gay to either wise up or leave, and time for many gays to wake up and understand that ideologies, like feminism, based on hating men, will only produce self hatred, and worse.

Such phobia, surely Mr. Elam's hatred knows no bounds. /s

You fucking fail at quote mining. You just picked a fucking title to mine "The Problem with Gay Rights", and tried to pitch that as evidence of homophobia.

Fuck you, not because you're a feminist, but because you're an ignorant, deceitful, fool; Additionally, I've come to realize that is the norm among feminists -- For who could believe in an ideology that applies no peer reviewed testing of their hypotheses before calling them Theories and having them turned into Laws? Only a self deceived fool, the same that would label hate-speech any but their own voice if these others examine problems with society, such as "The problem with Gay Rights"...

Note that this does not say: Gay Rights are Problematic. Note that Feminism does say "Masculinity is problematic"; Yet they have failed to prove this is true, and such thinking is harmful to Gays who ally with such ideologies, and would dare desire to exhibit a Masculine nature. Unlike Feminism, Mens Rights needs no ideology. I put it to you that Women's Rights neither requires such deceptive falsehoods as Feminism.

[–]tyciol -1 points0 points1 point 12 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

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[+]FeministBees -6 points-5 points-4 points 12 years ago* (13 children) | Copy Link

Such phobia, surely Mr. Elam's hatred knows no bounds.

He spends a significant amount of time in this article dismissing and belittling a huge section of the LGBT movement. He constructs the "good queer," someone who rejects feminism and LGBT activism. Of course, this "bad queers" are by Elam's description, they've become a "special interest group" that is incapable of knowing their own status (of course, unless Elam steps down to inform them).

[Gay men] have no idea who their real enemies are. No, not a freaking clue. And that ignorance sets up them up to lose more rights than they could ever hope to gain.

He gives queer men absolutely no credit for their own experiences, transforming them into the victims he needs to save.

And this leaves us with what we see in the “gay rights” movement today- a dissonant ideology that is designed to attack the very nature of who they are. For in the end, whether you are an avowed deconstructionist of traditional masculinity, or an equally fervent traditionalist that thinks real men sit tall in the saddle and lay their coats in the mud for women to walk on, gay men will remain what they are- men. And to whatever extent they seek to include themselves in the “rights“ of men in the modern Zeitgeist, they will invariably suffer the consequences for that pursuit.

The nature of who? Because as far as I can tell, Elam is talking a huge shit on all the non-heteronormative LGBT men and women out there. And what the hell is this constant dropping of the "gay" so that Elam can declare that gay men are simply men?

It is my hope that this movement comes to invite and include gay men within the ranks, not as gays, but as men. But I fear that this will take some real time; time for the very few within our ranks that actually hate gays for being gay to either wise up or leave, and time for many gays to wake up and understand that ideologies, like feminism, based on hating men, will only produce self hatred, and worse.

Yay again! It looks like there are some interesting requirements for gay men. Specifically that they leave their sexuality at the door and enter this movement "as men."

Plenty of feminists understand gender and sexuality as intersecting dimensions. They've done lots of work showing how these two interact (in conjunction with other dimensions of oppression). Feminists have made a lot of room for LGBT men and women, in part because many LGBT men and women are feminists.

While alternatively, the MRM seems to be wanting queer men in their ranks (though apparently not lesbians), but seem unwilling to actually make the room. Even in your very quotes of Elam, he states "they did not do these things because they were gay. They did these things because they were men." Thanks Elam, thanks for appropriating all the thing gay men have done for men. Because apparently you can't "develop of civilization" *because you're gay."

Like, where is Elam getting this point of view? It's not some underhanded attack the masculinity of feminist gay men? (oh wait, it is!) It's not an attempt to frame feminists as some opportunistic narrow organization? (oh wait, it is!) It's not an attack on LGBT movements in general? (oh wait, it is!)

Elam has the gall to shame us, insult us, and malign us. You may not want to call it homophobic (the term is heavy), but it is anti-gay and it's patent tokenism.

[–]guywithaccount 1 point2 points3 points 12 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

[+]FeministBees -4 points-3 points-2 points 12 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

[–]guywithaccount 2 points3 points4 points 12 years ago* (1 child) | Copy Link

No, I mean it. You are really tedious. I can't even do more than skim your posts; dissecting them would be worse than reading the phonebook, and about as productive.

edit: Ah hell, I'll throw you a bone. Probably more than you deserve.

Yay again! It looks like there are some interesting requirements for gay men. Specifically that they leave their sexuality at the door and enter this movement "as men."

They don't have to leave their sexuality at the door. The point he was trying to make, I think, was that we have no need or desire to treat gays as some kind of trophy: "look, our movement has GAYS in it, look how progressive we are!" A man is a man regardless of his sexual preferences.

Actually, it's kind of shitty of you to suggest that a gay man's sexuality is the only important part of his identity.

While alternatively, the MRM seems to be wanting queer men in their ranks (though apparently not lesbians), but seem unwilling to actually make the room.

There's plenty of room in the MRM for gay men. We have no need to "make" more. I don't know why you would think otherwise. As for lesbians, if they want to support men and men's rights, there's plenty of room for them too. Take, say, Karen Straughan (GirlWritesWhat). She's straight AFAIK - but would it matter to us if she were a lesbian? Not really.

If they don't support men or men's rights, then I don't know why they would want to be in the movement, or why we would need to make a special place for them just so we can include them even though they don't want in. Just because feminism pretends to be all things to all people and cynically misappropriates other groups' struggles in a shallow bid for social justice cred doesn't mean that we're doing the same thing.

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[–]tyciol 0 points1 point2 points 12 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

He spends a significant amount of time in this article dismissing and belittling a huge section of the LGBT movement. He constructs the "good queer," someone who rejects feminism and LGBT activism

So your problem is that he doesn't except feminists who are LGBT from his habit of belitting feminists in general? I'm not sure what you're complaining about here.

He gives queer men absolutely no credit for their own experiences, transforming them into the victims he needs to save.

That's your generalization. From what he said, he appears to credit them for their experience and accomplishments. I see no transforming going on, many LGBT are victims of discrimination. We can save each other or ourselves.

Elam is talking a huge shit on all the non-heteronormative LGBT men and women out there

How so? Nothing in what you quoted in the paragraph preceding this comment implied such criticism. He includes both those who are traditionalists AND those who deconstruct old stereotypes.

what the hell is this constant dropping of the "gay" so that Elam can declare that gay men are simply men?

This is done to show that we feel a sense of unity and that sexuality isn't that big deal. It's not even necessary to emphasize it. Much like we may avoid constantly calling "black men" via the colored adjective, we may avoid the application of romantic adjectives when it is not a factor that bothers us.

About the only downside to the 'men' emphasis is some alienation of any female MRAs or hardworking women. They have made a lot of accomplishments too.

It looks like there are some interesting requirements for gay men. Specifically that they leave their sexuality at the door and enter this movement "as men."

I have no clue where you're getting this shit. The point here is that gay men face the same discrimination men do, unlike gay women.

It's no different from saying 'include black men within the ranks, not as blacks, but as men' for the same reason.

It doesn't at all mean you need to leave parts of who you are behind, just that they aren't exactly the basis of why people are gathering.

Then again, since we include female MRAs, it's not so much one's sex that is the issue of gathering, as much as one's opinions and empathy, so a refocus could be useful.

Feminists have made a lot of room for LGBT men and women, in part because many LGBT men and women are feminists.

There is also room in the MRA for LGBT. I'm not sure I understand your point. It's the women's shelters who are excluding transwomen and forcing transmen to identify by their biological rather than personality gender.

Thanks Elam, thanks for appropriating all the thing gay men have done for men. Because apparently you can't "develop of civilization" *because you're gay."

I think you're misinterpreting him again. I'm guessing he's alluding to something about there being gay men who have accomplished a lot more than gay women.

It's not an attempt to frame feminists as some opportunistic narrow organization? (oh wait, it is!)

And the problem with this is?

It's not an attack on LGBT movements in general? (oh wait, it is!)

No, it isn't. Except maybe those who participate in feminism and misandry.

[+]FeministBees -1 points0 points1 point 12 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

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That is because it is a rigged soap opera designed to enable the Marxist Homosexual Revolutionary Anarchists hijack the legitimate MRM. The whole gender war was BS created by homosexuals, and much like homosexuals in feminism during the second wave, used social mechanisms to get the majority of women "ok" with them, homosexuals are using similar mechanisms to create a scenario that forces acceptance of homosexuality.

It is all a rigged soap opera in a gay friendly nation. That is why the marxist homosexuals at a voice for men are busy up in Canada instead of America. They are working to build support in a country friendly towards them(Marxist Homosexuals), so they can use that to force homosexuality in America. This has nothing to do with the rights of men.

The "MHRA" have never done anything for the sake of "helping men", everything they have done and everything they are planning to do is to just strengthen their position within the MRM, and use that position to force the acceptance of homosexuality and marxism.

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Yeah, not this instance, but other feminist protests in the past bade me look into the issues they were rallying against, discover only accusatory language, lack of evidence, and perpetuation of falsehoods...

As a scientist, their calls to action, lacking any evidence such is called for, threatens core tenets of my profession -- completely rejecting and subverting the scientific method; Including research into actual domestic violence.

Most rapists and abusers have been raped and/or abused themselves; So, ignoring and erasing female perpetrators can only create more female victims in the next cycle of violence.

Feminists gave me no choice but to become an MRA -- I actually care about reducing rape and abuse.

At first I thought I was alone, digging up research to refute their claims, and confronting them in public. I couldn't believe the state of things... I stumbled upon the MRM by chance after a Feminist mentioned it as a hate group. I'm thankful for that since this restored a bit of my faith in humanity: I wasn't the only rational minded individual studying social and gender issues.

Recent feminist publicity stunts in other areas, such as video game critiques, have likewise helped bring many others into the MRM -- Or at least made them more receptive of its messages.

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Title	Historic MHRA rally in Toronto huge success
Author	Frankly_No
Upvotes	133
Comments	69
Date	September 29, 2013 3:53 AM UTC (12 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/1ncs0t/historic_mhra_rally_in_toronto_huge_success/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/historic-mhra-rally-in-toronto-huge-success.1162630 https://theredarchive.com/post/1162630

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