I actually saw this on Facebook. Good to see the idea is spreading!

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No, its medically better to be circumcised. Less bacteria because it can't hide in the skin. Easier to clean too, I'd imagine.

Women have more genital folds than men that require more attention and they develop genital infections much more often; is it better for women to be circumcised?

I would rather have it cut as a baby than now, when I will be able to remember the experience, which I can't imagine being it a good one.

Don't you understand how reprehensible that is? You're saying you're too much off a coward to pay the price of your choices so are OK with millions of other men having suffered in order for you to get what you want.

Not to mention the fact that just because infants can't remember doesn't mean they weren't harmed. A baby feels just as much pain as an adult, possibly more; are you honestly suggesting it is OK to hurt others if they won't remember it?

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[–]Eryemil16 points 13 years ago* [recovered] (1 child) | Copy Link

Personally, I would prefer to have it circumcised [...]

You're already circumcised; the above is basically a meaningless statement. You're comfortable with what you've got, it's the path of least resistance. If you had an intact penis you'd also prefer that.

Your "preference" here does not inform the ethical issues that child circumcision bring up.

I know some people who have issues with their uncircumcised little guys, that are relevant to that fact

Are you aware of the issues that can result from being circumcised? Which are, coincidentally, much more severe than the opposite?

If you live in a circumcising culture you'll probably not hear many horror stories used to demean circumcised men and justify leaving boys whole—why exactly do you imagine you've heard so much about issues intact men have with their penises when circumcised men have more and worse issues and most men around you are circumcised? It doesn't make any sense, statistically, unless you consider the fact you've only been told a part of the story in order to influence your beliefs.

Think about that.

[...] but I certainly want it done then, when I can't remember feeling it, than now when I would be feeling it for the next month.

I don't think you realise how selfish this point of view is. What you are saying, in other words, is:

I am too cowardly to pay the price to get what I want so I am willing to have others subjected to horrific torture and life-long impairment in order to have achieve my ends. The social paradigm that allowed you to be circumcised as an infant, which you believe to be ideal, also allowed other men to be similarly harmed—even those that would not have chosen to be.

The fact that you can't remember does not mean that no harm was done.

My parents claim I slept through it.

Either they lied or you went into shock. Do you think you could sleep through someone tearing and cutting one of the most sensitive parts of your body?

Why is it that such a ridiculous statement is suddenly not suspicious because we're talking about babies? Do you imagine infants don't feel pain?

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I'd feel self conscious about my penis if I weren't circ. Most girls I know say they find it unattractive.

Even if you did feel self-concious, and you can't really say you would, that doesn't mean you'd want to be circumcised—there are, after all, plenty of good things about having a foreskin to make it worth it, which is why intact guys don't go cutting off their bits.

Also, if women around you are saying things like that chances are it's from ignorance; none of them have probably even seen an intact penis in person. Most of them will grow up out of that and would you want to be involved in those that wouldn't? Think about this for a second: you're saying that you would be scared that females that want you to cut off a piece of your cock don't like you—that's pathetic beyond words. How many other parts of your body are you willing to sacrifice for pussy?

I think you need to take a hard look in the mirror and think about what you're worth as a man and as a human being. It's not OK for any woman to expect you to have suffered horrible pain as a baby and sacrifice a significant part of your penis and sexual function for her benefit.

Would you ever expect a girl to give up a piece of her clit for you?

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[+]itrollulol -7 points-6 points-5 points 13 years ago (14 children) | Copy Link

Never heard about the dying babies.

Also, I have a PhD in neuroscience so let me drop some knowledge on you all. There are many thousands of nerve fibers on every square inch of your body. These nerves innervate the skin from deeper nerve bundles. The primary concern in the penis is the DNP (the dorsal nerve of the penis, easy to remember).

In a peer reviewed study posted to the NIH no significant difference was found in penile sensation from neonatally circumcised men and those with an intact foreskin.

How can this be? Well infants enjoy much greater nervous regeneration than their adult counterparts. Aside from out-and-out severing entire nerve bundles, peripheral nervous regeneration in children is a rapid and often very successful process.

I'm not saying botched circumcisions don't occur, and I do agree that unnecessary circumcisions should be banned. All I'm saying is don't look down on your neonatally circumcised peers as somehow crippled or pitiable. We have the exact same amount of sensation as you. Our little guys just lack sheaths.

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All skin is "keratinized". If you meant scar formation, there is only a small ring of scar tissue surrounding the penis after circumcision. If you meant hyperkeratinization, this should not occur barring any genetic abnormalities. Here is a video describing what keratinization is

Your previous post is correct. I'd never researched that before but after some quick fact checking it looks like you're right. I don't really see the huge benefit of "locking in moisture" during sex, however.

This is completely accurate. Assuming the DNP and other important sensory bundles are unscathed, 12 years is PLENTY of time for nerves to reinnervate any disturbed tissue. To be fair, however, the only notable lack of sensation should be felt in the thin scar that remains. This scar fades and should feel like normal skin.

As for being apparently intact, I've always heard from women that they couldn't tell the difference. I suppose it's because most women I associate with haven't had enough sexual partners to qualify as a valid scientific pool. lol Lastly, I think most people in the western world know what circumcision is. I'd be shocked if I met someone from Australia, Canada, the US, or the EU who didn't know what circumcision was.

Thanks for your questions! If you're interested in learning more about neuroscience or anything else in the field of biology I encourage you to enroll in some community college classes (or university, if you can afford the luxury). Also, message me anytime and I'd be glad to shoot you a response.

[–]Eryemil 2 points3 points4 points 13 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]zpgnbg 0 points1 point2 points 13 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

All skin is "keratinized".

This may be the case, but the build up of layers of skin due to friction can (albeit temporarily) desensitise the glans or any other tissue it happens to. For example, I am a guitarist and the fingertips on my left hand have hard skin on them due to playing the guitar. If I were to stop, the skin would return to normal. Likewise, the constant friction of clothes on the glans builds up layers of skin and desensitises it. On top of this, without the foreskin providing protection and keeping the glans moist, it dries and desensitises further. This picture is an accurate representation of this.

the huge benefit of "locking in moisture" during sex, however.

Prevents friction which damages the internal tissue of whatever orifice you're jamming it into. And, as I stated earlier, moisture under the foreskin keeps the glans healthy.

I'd be shocked if I met someone from Australia, Canada, the US, or the EU who didn't know what circumcision was.

In the last week I've seen two people in the comments on askreddit who have just discovered that they are circumcised after years of believing otherwise. Many people think circumcision is the entire removal of the glans and is a tradition for Jews. My guess is that people know of it, but not what it entails.

[+]itrollulol -1 points0 points1 point 13 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

[–]zpgnbg 0 points1 point2 points 13 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

http://www.reddit.com/r/AskReddit/comments/1hh45m/what_is_your_best_i_am_not_a_smart_person_story/caubsaq

Here are some quotes:

"I just found out I'm circumcised. I'm 17."

"my friend used to brag he was uncircumcised because he thought that was when you cut the head of your dick off... he was circumcised"

"when my boyfriend casually said something about him being uncircumcised I got really intense and argued that he wasn’t."

"I didn't even know circumcision existed till I was at least that old, despite the fact that I am."

"Most guys don't have a good reference to compare with, so they never realize something is different with them. I never realized I was circumcised until I was ~14."

"I've met several guys who also didn't know this."

"I can't tell. Help!"

"I didn't realize I was circumcised until I was about 15. I had always thought my weiner was what weiners naturally looked like... I thought circumcisions were only for Jewish guys. Facepalm."

[–]zpgnbg -1 points0 points1 point 13 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]Eryemil 0 points1 point2 points 13 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

After the mucosal tissue is removed and the healing has completed, the glans rapidly (weeks to months) adjusts to being exposed. [...] The nervous sensation lost should be repaired by reinnervation after the wound has healed.

And you base this on what? Does the nerve density of the glans increase to match that of the frenulum somehow?

There is an adjustment taking place, but it's not the one you claim. How does the exposed mucosa adjust when exposed to dehydration and friction? They form callosities a layer of dead skin cells, not unlike callosities that bury surface-lying nerve endings.

Also, the foreskin doesn't serve a purpose sexually other than lubrication.

And penetration, masturbation and intercourse. The intact penis can displace its entire length frictionlessly.

The foreskin serves three functions. It provides novel sensory feedback that no other part of the penis can detect, it protects the fragile internal structures of the penis and it provides the penis ability to function mechanically.

A fully erect normal penis (except for cases of phimosis) is usually not distinguishable from a fully erect circumcised penis.

I hear Americans say this all the time, usually good naturedly as a misguided defence of intact penises but this is not the case. Most men have long enough coverage to retain erect coverage.

[–]Eryemil 0 points1 point2 points 13 years ago* (0 children) | Copy Link

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15833526

Terrible study, practically useless. They don't take data of the foreskin at all.

This study only measures fine-touch sensitivity but it measures all of the penis:

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1464-410X.2006.06685.x/full

Basically the circumcised penis is as fine-touch sensitive as the surrounding skin. All of the areas of the penis with high sensitivity are ablated by circumcision, leaving it unable to perceive a whole kind of sensation.

Never heard about the dying babies.

There's a couple in the news every year, and these are only the ones we hear about because the parents take make it known or it leaks out.

http://www.circumstitions.com/death.html

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=7YSBS9y9YvQ

And of course, as the last bit of the first link notes these are only the reports that make it to the news in developed countries. We have no idea how many boys die during Muslim circumcision.

We have the exact same amount of sensation as you.

How is that possible when you're lacking all the fine-touch receptors and one of the two most erogenous spots on the penis? Not to mention what is left is also further damaged and buried under layers of dead tissue?

[+]anonominator -3 points-2 points-1 points 13 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[+]itrollulol 4 points5 points6 points 13 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Well, their point is completely valid. Lopping off part of someone's body at birth without any real reason is pretty infuriating. I wish to God I still had my foreskin and never had to have a circumcision. I was upset with my parents when I did my research.

This is a big men's rights issue. No one but YOU should be able to decide if your penis will be forever and irrevocably altered. We can perform hundreds of thousands of tests on nervous sensation and take subjective studies but we will never really know what the difference actually feels like.

I think it is a barbaric and criminal thing to do. My only problem is that every time someone broaches the subject they do so in a hurtful way. The vast majority of men who receive neonatal circumcisions live totally normal/happy sex lives.

Still. We feed our children pork, shellfish, clothe them in mixed-fiber clothing, teach them to accept gay marriage, respect women's rights, but we HAVE to stick to slicing up their dicks or they'll go to hell or something?

My wife told me something the other day that actually upset me. She said that in her experience, most of her female friends would make fun of any boy they heard was uncircumcised and that being uncircumcised where she lived was looked at as on par with having an STD. We were discussing circumcising the son we hope to have one day and I told her I would never father a son that she would have circumcised. When she asked why I was so defensive I asked her if we should have removed our daughter's clitoral hood and labia majora when she was born.

Hit 'em with that argument and you're a monster, somehow. How is the center of the Earth (culturally, scientifically, economically, militarily) still a place where not having your junk sliced up is abnormal and disgusting?

[–]Eryemil 4 points5 points6 points 13 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link

[+]itrollulol -3 points-2 points-1 points 13 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

[–]Eryemil 1 point2 points3 points 13 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

The dartos muscle does not serve a purpose other than suspending and contracting the scrotum.

The dartos muscle extends all the way to the tip of the penis and surrounds the opening of the foreskin, keeping it closed.

You're right about the mucosa, however. I never really understood the need for a lubricating penis, though.

Not all mucous membranes actually produce mucus. There are key differences between mucous membrane and skin:

1) No pores or hair, which reduces friction which prevents injury.

2) No sweat glands. It becomes easily dehydrated.

3) Very thin in comparison, easily damaged.

4) Surface-lying nerve endings.

As far as removing girth and surface area etc. these effects are negligible. We're talking about millimeters of skin.

My foreskin is about five milimeters thick around the glans and I have a rather small penis. With the foreskin in its resting position the thickest part of my penis measures 11 and a half centimeters while with the foreskin retracted it measures 10 cm.

All that tissue, when the foreskin is displaced back, adds to the girth of the shaft.

It's quite easy to visualise how much girth would be lost to circumcision, or, inversely, how a circumcised penis would have looked if left intact. It's quite a lot of volume.

[–]zpgnbg 0 points1 point2 points 13 years ago* (2 children) | Copy Link

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[–]zpgnbg 2 points3 points4 points 13 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Title	I actually saw this on Facebook. Good to see the idea is spreading!
Author	Falkner09
Upvotes	436
Comments	132
Date	July 15, 2013 4:11 AM UTC (13 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/1ibhnm/i_actually_saw_this_on_facebook_good_to_see_the/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/i-actually-saw-this-on-facebook-good-to-see-the.1168724 https://theredarchive.com/post/1168724

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