I posted a question about men's mental health on Reddit a few weeks ago. Some helpful conversations started BUT some unexpected conflicts began - ever since, I have been mentally unsettled & confused. I'm trying to consolidate what I believe & where I most closely align. Is it here? (I'm a woman.)

Forgetaboutthelonely · 2021-03-08T02:03:58+00:00

I think this is an important conversation. So I'm putting it up top.

a-man-from-earth · 2021-03-07T23:14:37+00:00

Welcome!

Women are some of the best male advocates we know: Erin Pizzey, Christina Hoff Sommers, Cassie Jaye, Cathy Young, Karen Straughan. So do not be discouraged by the haters.

The homeless feeling is something many of us here know all too well. We politically lean left and egalitarian, but the political "left" seems to hate us for standing up for men (instead of subscribing to dominant feminist dogma).

Oncefa2 · 2021-03-07T23:07:14+00:00

There's a lot of interest about this topic in this sub. And I'm sure everyone would be glad to have you here.

I have been SO naive to the depth/breadth of the war waging beyond my shores between women's rights and men's rights that I am questioning- WHAT DO I DO NOW??

I don't think there's a war between women's rights and men's rights. Feminists and MRAs sometimes do not see eye to eye, but feminism is not the same thing as women's rights. Every MRA I know also supports women's rights, and will usually describe themselves as an egalitarian. These positions are not mutually exclusive. Helping men can also help women and vice versa.

The "male version of feminism" is probably something like the red pill movement, not the men's rights movement.

At any rate, don't listen to the haters. Do what you think is right. Some of the biggest and most impactful MRAs are women because often times people will listen to women but won't listen to a man. Especially when it comes to gender equality and things like that.

AskingToFeminists · 2021-03-08T03:09:36+00:00

Welcome among us.

Many here once identified as feminists, but dared to question some aspects of how it is practiced, mainly by big institutions/associations, and were pretty much shamed and rejected for it. Since then, through actually looking at what is done under the banner, many have come to think of feminism, as is practiced, as something radically different from the nice sounding "movement for equality", and more as something pushing all sorts ormf really harmful things on society, men in particular, but that also has all sorts of negative impacts on women.

The realization can be hard, for some people, and confusing. My advice is, stick to what you believe is right no matter how much people disapprove of you. There's nothing healthy to gain to lie to yourself and go against your values. Particularly if it's to agree with an impersonal crowd on the internet.

Don't take too much to heart any hate some people might fling at you. Knowing that you are true to yourself should be what guides you. And know that as long as you are open minded, willing to consider evidence and to have open discussions, even if you end up disagreeing with us, you will be welcomed here.

The beehives you poked, we're rather familiar with. They basically both stem from something similar to what you can observe from people who escape cults. As a psychologist, you might be familiar with it : someone who discover that they have been lied to their whole life, but finally discover the truth, and gets pissed at people they perceive as being still in the cult and propagating its harmful effects on others. And so they lash out in anger at those they perceive as trying to pull them or other back into the cult.

Of course, people who enter a cult also think that they are the ones who have discovered the truth, and that those outside are the ones standing in the way of salvation and harming others, and are angry at them.

I would suggest that a good way to determine on which side you're on is to look for which side will allow for people to openly question things and disagree, and which side will try to use shame, social agression, ostracism, and, on social media, banning and silencing tactics to avoid dissent.

That's what makes me think I'm on the right side here :D, and that feminism isn't

There's also how we deal with those hateful people. Whe' they come to us, we try to calm them, to get them to come to term with things, and to get them to channel their anger towards acting to make the world a better place.

On the side of feminism, we get the impression that they try to stoke that hatred, and to give it a platform, with the multiplications of various books and news article praising misandry, like the article [why can't we hate men?](www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/why-cant-we-hate-men/2018/06/08/f1a3a8e0-6451-11e8-a69c-b944de66d9e7_story.html) in the Washington post by a leading feminist academic.

I'm sorry you had to suffer from those beehives. Know that we would prefer they didn't exist, and that we try to do what we can to limit their influence, and to get people out from them, and back into sanity.

Know that people here take feminism to mean "the collection of actions and beliefs pushed by groups and academics and agencies who call themselves feminists", and not "the equality of men and women" or "women's rights". That's something key to keep in mind when reading here. Like you've been told already, people here are generally egalitarian,but perceive the various things undertaken under the name of feminism to be detrimental to men, and very often women.

The modern MRM is considered to have been started by Warren Farrell, who used to be on the board of the NOW, decided to investigate the wage gap, back when it was still a novel concept, I believe it was around the 70s, found it to be mainly a question of differing life choices made by men and women, and decided to try to empower women with the knowledge of those choices, so that they may follow those same life choices and earn more if they wished. Apparently, the NOW didn't appreciate his empowering message that didn't imply telling women they were powerlessly oppressed by a sexist system that could only be fought through groups like the NOW, and so he basically lost his feminist credentials and got kicked out, since he didn't renounce his principles and his commitment to evidences.

As such, the MRM is very much a movement that cares for women and is left leaning at its core. Sadly, being feminist is mainly left coded, and doubting feminism is more traditionalist/right coded, and so a lot of people of these bent also joined the MRM, and r/MensRights is more right leaning. It's also older, more recognized, and so, as reddit's life cycle does its thing, more filled with shitty memes, rage bait, and has also a big presence of people like pick-up artists, MGTOW or incels who have been chased away from other places and have found some amount of refuge there. As we generally allow differing opinions, and very rarely ban people, they also use it as an outlet.

That's why this sub has been made. It reflects more what can be said in the MRM, is generally with better quality posts, and also more welcoming to left leaning people, while still welcoming all sorts of dissent to have productive exchanges.

If you want to learn more about the MRM, the first two things I would recommend would be to look at the YouTube channel of Karen Straughan. Sort her videos by oldest, 20mn+, and start watching. She's incredibly smart, and her channel is filled with interesting informations and perspectives.

If you're less into rather dry and logical essays, and more into more emotional, empathy generating documentaries (nobody's perfect :D, I won't judge you), then you should give a look at the documentary "the red pill", by Cassie Jaye, a feminist documentarian who decided to fairly investigate the MRM. She also has a Ted talk called "meeting the enemy" that is worth watching.

Other channels that might be of interests to you :

The prim reaper a left leaning woman, psychologist, in the MRM.

men are good, more right leaning, Tom golden is also a psychologist, older, who's worked a lot with men and notably wrote a book on the masculine side of healing about how men grieve particularly.

I hope this helps you navigate those new waters. Know that you are definitely welcome, and that we appreciate your desire to help men. All the help is more than welcome.

Don't hesitate to post to ask questions. There are always people willing to answer in detail. If you tag me, I can guarantee at least one autistic perdon with a burning passion for data, some good knowledge about CBT, and a disregard for what is taboo willing to go on at length and to provide sources will oblige, if that's possible. And I'm sure others will help.

amkmaker1754 · 2021-03-08T06:18:52+00:00

I'm also a woman attacked by other women for supporting a "man's cause". I'm sexist, brainwashed...welcome home, sister, let's help people

Forgetaboutthelonely · 2021-03-08T02:09:14+00:00

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3WMuzhQXJoY&t=779s&ab_channel=TEDxTalks

I feel like you may have been linked this before. It's a very popular video from a woman doing essentially the same thing you are.

Her name is Cassie jaye. She's a movie maker who decided to make a documentary on the men's rights movement.

Initially she was offered funding by several feminist groups. But when she wouldn't allow creative control they dropped her.

it was then that she went to IIRC kickstarter. And was funded by a number of MRM figures. This has been used ad nauseum as evidence of her "bias" towards the MRM.

And for this she was attacked.

LacklustreFriend · 2021-03-08T07:59:33+00:00

I'm going to be cliché here, but it's really an individual journey for you to go on. Many people, and elsewhere, have gone through similar experiences. Don't feel like you have to attach yourself to any group or idea, that includes here. Developing your own views and thoughts on an issue is important and necessary for growth, no matter your station in life.

All I can really do is offer my own perspective on things. I personally don't agree with everything that is said on this subreddit, I hate labels (I don't identify as a MRA or something else), nor do I consider myself an activist of any kind, but this place is open for discussion. I am contrarian and careful by nature, which more people should be like, if I do say so myself.

As to the question of whether a woman can advocate for men? Of course! I don't believe in the subjective and esoteric concept of "knowledges", that being a man or woman gives you completely indescribable perspective. While it is true that any given man may have an easier time understanding the male experience, there's plenty of women who understand, and plenty of men who don't. As long as you think critically about an issue, a provide a well reasoned and argued perspective, it shouldn't matter who it comes from. Your role as a (men's) therapist would give you all the more insight.

In fact, some of the most effective MRAs, egalitarians etc. Have been women. To go on a tangent, there's a meta-level discussion I've occasionally seen pop up in MRA spaces, about women advocates for men. The consensus generally seems to be that women advocates are actually more valuable (ironically?) because we are more inclined to actually listen to the concerns of women, rather than of "whining" men. Arguably the most successful/popular MRA is Karen Straughan aka "girlwriteswhat". Her older videos are quite remarkable, though perhaps a bit confronting/overwhelming if you're new to all this. I recommend her video on Male Disposability if you're interested. She has some very interesting opinions on gender issues, though she does have a libertarian outlook on some things which I disagree with.

Other comments have mentioned some other female figures too, though one I haven't seen mentioned is Camille Paglia, though I think she describes herself as gender-nonconforming. She has some wonderfully heterodox views on gender, though I don't agree with them all, she definitely worth listening to. I recommend this interview/Q&A from her.

Aaaaaidan · 2021-03-08T03:48:39+00:00

As a man with terrible mental health, I for one would be very interested to hear what you have to say on the topic.

SugarLemonLife · 2021-03-08T04:02:53+00:00

[permanently deleted]

SugarLemonLife · 2021-03-07T23:24:15+00:00

[permanently deleted]

SugarLemonLife · 2021-03-08T07:53:27+00:00

I don't really see what you being a woman has to do with anything. I really don't like all this "female voice" "ally" language. I mean some people will make it a big deal but it's up to you whether you buy into it and make it a part of your framework. You either have something insightful to say that is worth listening to or you don't. At least for me, whenever I see the words "as a...." I kind of just switch off at this point, I'm tired of it.

DanteLivra · 2021-03-08T13:42:42+00:00

The war analogy is bad, because it would means that we put ourselves at the same level of radical feminists and other extremist.

We are above that, we understand that gender issues are related. We understand that by helping men we can help women and vice versa. Right now in the west, women and men can all benefits from an educated talk about male mental illnesses.

typhonblue · 2021-03-08T21:12:21+00:00

Sorry to hear about your struggles. I can relate.

I'm actually interested in hearing about your insights into men's mental health. Would you consider coming on Honey Badger Radio to talk about them?

redgarnetamaranth · 2021-03-08T09:41:58+00:00

Here are some resources I think will be helpful

https://www.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/b4tdew/people_constantly_overstate_the_extent_to_which/

https://www.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/edyrf5/a_compilation_of_evidence_debunking_feminist/

https://www.reddit.com/r/UnpopularFacts/comments/lfk82y/domestic_violence_is_not_gendered/

https://www.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/i0j2g9/some_sources_on_sexual_abuse_of_men_and_boys/ (there are four parts to this)

some faqs

https://www.reddit.com/r/rbomi/wiki/main

https://www.reddit.com/r/MensRights/wiki/faq

and the resources section to this sub has a lot of other stuff

welcome to LWMA! :)

Kuato2012 · 2021-03-08T12:58:12+00:00

I remember your earlier threads. I'm glad you got some good information... sorry it led to some existential angst though. You'll find plenty of ex-feminists here who have abandoned the ideology after getting a good look at its true face.

This can be an uncomfortable place to live, because it's generally assumed that to be liberal or left-leaning, one must also be feminist. And it's also generally assumed that, with respect to interest in gender issues, feminism is the only legitimate game in town. Neither assumption is true though.

I still believe in women's rights, and men's, and principles like gender equality. I just have no respect for the ideology that relies so heavily on petty tribalism (women good, men bad!) and rank intellectual dishonesty (the sheer amount of sophistry and doublethink required to pretend that it's actually an equality movement, for example).

I find myself in places like this subreddit because I still have an interest in taking an empathetic approach to gender equality, and I think men desparately need the help currently. I'm sure you'd be quite welcome here, too.

accused of being a misandrist that wants to "create more weak men that women can take advantage of"

I'm still puzzling over this. One the one hand, I suppose that could be the response of men who value traditional masculinity and therefore view therapy with distrust, viz. the APA declaring that "traditional masculinity is psychologically harmful."

I can also see that reply coming from a place of bitterness and resentment. Most of us have been conditioned to expect very little empathy or understanding, but we've all received plenty of messages about how men are broken, inferior versions of women. Taking those things together, I can maybe see why some men might suspect that your actual aim is to emasculate men (I don't think that's the case!).

do I just quit my ridiculous idea of trying to help men by speaking up for and to men (maybe it just does more harm?) OR do I find/define my unique (& female) voice even clearer and proceed into what I'm seeing as a war zone with lots of flying shrapnel?

Advocating for men is definitely the path of greater resistance. I can't fault anyone for just wanting to keep their head down, especially when it comes to offline, real life, where careers and social circles hang in the balance.

That said, I don't think that a woman advocating for men does harm to men. Quite the contrary. Men get easily shouted down when we try to speak up outside of little pockets like this one, due to a variety of factors such as the host of thought-terminating cliches that everyone has on hand to shut down the conversation. Women seem to be more empowered to be the heroes in the gender issues sphere, because people are more inclined to actually hear what you say. And people (usually) can't just shout words like "misogynist" or "incel" at you like some magic spell that closes the minds and hardens the hearts of everyone in earshot.

Sorry for the overlong reply. Just one last thing: thank you for giving a damn! A lot of guys will say, "I don't care that you're advocating for men as a woman." They're entitled to that feeling. But for me, in this ridiculous age where the heads of Gender Studies departments proudly defend their bigotry and #killallmen is a popular trend on social media, it's a little drop of healing balm every time I hear that someone from the other tribe actually cares.

SugarLemonLife · 2021-03-08T13:34:33+00:00

welcome and also(most of this will be from my experience others may disagree due to their experiences), yeah sometimes people here can get a bit much and we don't really support that, but while women have been very helpful in our cause we don't recommend going to a feminist sub due to their toxicity and immaturity(I've dealt with it and it is not fun) because they refuse to acknowledge a lot of our principles and what we are fighting for even if we support some of them(there are a few specific branches suck as the KAM movement that are highly illogical and very frustrating to deal with) they dont support us(sorry if i repeat myself i sometimes accidentally do that). anyway, welcome.

matrixislife · 2021-03-08T17:03:51+00:00

Welcome to the club. Feminism feels great for it's participants, UNTIL they put a foot wrong, then it's cancel culture and personal attacks until you admit your wrong doing. Then as likely as not, it's more of the same.

Where you go from here is entirely up to you. The easiest way to look at it is based on your personal politics. If you are left-leaning then this is the sub for you, if you are slightly more to the right then /r/mensrights might be a more comfortable fit. I have to say though, both subs are accepting of people's politics so long as you are broadly supporting men's rights/egalitarianism.

There are women in both subs who are very supportive, so you aren't going to be alone. I would strongly suggest you sanitise any of your comments or posts to remove any personally identifiable information, cancel culture is real and at some point might have you in their sights.

SugarLemonLife · 2021-03-08T11:36:09+00:00

Hello and welcome. As another half-centenarian, the 'bee-hive" of angry, coddled children masquerading as adults can be difficult to manage. But I mostly just ignore the responses coming from those who are obviously in the grip of some ideology handed down from Academia and passed through several filters which have turned the signal almost entirely into noise.

Sadly, there is no mainstream "Men's rights" movement on a par with feminism. No daily articles in mainstream newspapers about the gendered issues men are dealing with, so the nomenclature and positions people are taking can be confusing and bewildering as there is no leadership and no body of academic work on the subject.

Added to that a concerted and sustained campaign of disinformation and vilification directed towards men's groups, which is backed by 'big feminism' so to speak, and the picture becomes very muddy.

Sure there are men who have been roundly abused by the family court system, who are still raw from the blatant unfairness and cruelties imposed by a gynocentric approach (which harm kids most of all). And sure there are young men who have recently discovered the establishment does not care about them (and in fact, wishes them harm) - who find it easier to just take it out on women than understand the matrix of interlocking issues.

But by and large the men in these forums have genuine problems, the creation and resolution of which does not lie in their hands.

As for the feminists - there is a large and vocal cohort who lead that movement who are part of a larger 'social justice' element. They have entirely lost their way and reduced the pursuit for equality and justice to a point scoring exercise that inflates their egos on the one hand, while importing the dogmatic and inflexible attitudes of organised religion on the other.

Heresies abound! and no doubt you have been found guilty of the modern equivalent of 'communion with the devil' for talking to us or questioning feminist verities.

My advice is stay the course. In the end, the howling mob of authoritarian bigots jostling for power will be seen for they really are and a more genuine 'social justice' movement will take their place. One that includes men.

AnxiousMammoth3 · 2021-03-08T14:57:58+00:00

Appreciate the earnest post.

It sounds like you've learned an important lesson - that feminism is not just pro-women, but actively anti-man. It's easy to get swept up in the feminist propaganda that feminism is "about equality" and "about helping men too", but I think only after you directly experience the hate that feminists spread does it sink in what modern feminism is really about. Men experience it all the time, but I think most women are not as in-tune with the extent of feminist misandry because it just doesn't cut the same way, so props to you for gaining that perspective.

That said, I wouldn't give up. Feminism is in vogue right now, and as a result, so is the misandrist worldview they spread. Trying to help men through any sort of group that ascribes to identity-politics is a bad idea, because feminists control the narrative on gender issues in those spaces, and feminists are fundamentally at odds with the idea of helping men. However, if you continue your mission independently or through a level-headed men's group, I don't think you'll encounter too much of that sort of vitriol. Feminists will push pack when it's right in their face, but I don't think they'll follow you and try to shut you down. They tend to become very cowardly when they're outside of a feminist space, because they don't have the safety in numbers to bully.

Keep up the good work and keep (safely) doing the things you believe in!

SugarLemonLife · 2021-03-08T18:03:27+00:00

I like the reframe... what I felt like was an existential crisis in my state of utter distress you applaud as an enlightened step forward (“props to you for gaining that perspective.”) I appreciate that!! 😀

Also, thanks for the support and encouragement to not give up.

dontpet · 2021-03-08T23:55:09+00:00

I run a counselling service for men with us serving maybe 250 men per week. It is normal that more than half the team are women. I notice that the women want me to be much more active as an mra in the community. I suspect they are unusual though in that they approached us with more of a gender agenda than the men did.

SugarLemonLife · 2021-03-09T02:42:44+00:00

I wouldn't try to find a panacaea in any online community. Even the ones that seem more agreeable to your worldview at first glance, you still need to approach with a critical eye. Echo chambers are real and can be very toxic.

Online you'll find any kind of extremist under the sun. In a world with 7 billion people, any issue you're prone to be paranoid about, you'll find a real-world example of, blown up by whatever special interest group you're into.

I get what you're saying though. I used to browse /r/MensLib and while it sometimes has interesting discussions and the concept of a men's issues sub that also cares about women's rights is unobjectionable, the actual sub and the way it's executed just leaves me filled with existential dread every time I read it.

It's like vision of this world that there is this all-encompassing oppressive structure that seeps into every single aspect of our lives, from children's cartoons to family dinner conversations, and you need to be mindful of it every single waking moment lest you accidentally perpetuate more oppression, especially when you belong to a group that is deemed to "benefit" from said oppressive structures.

it really goes beyond highlighting issues and providing solutions for them, and it becomes something very disturbing. There's a lot of talk about gendered differences in "taking up space" and how men are conditioned to "manspread" while women are taught to be shrinking violets, and men need to be more aware of how intimidating their taking up of space is to women, who are made to feel unsafe and insignificant blah blah

I mean by all means give women the tools to be confident themselves, but why am I getting the feeling you are nudging male allies into becoming shrinking violets themselves?

The healthy balance seems to be missing there sometimes, becasue a lot of people seem more concerned about righteousness and being a good ally. I used to be very socially anxious, timid, scrupulous and worried about accidentally breathing in someone else's oxygen, even without a social movement telling me this stuff, so I'm concerned about the (unintended?) mental health effects such discourse can have. Not to mention incel forums and the mental health effects of their discourse - but incel discourse is more obviously disturbing and less socially acceptable, which is why I'm talking about the more socially acceptable progressive menslib discourse ( /r/MensLib is the one men's issues subreddit that commenters in mainstream subs will recommend as a "healthy" space).

Dating is one big thing that was causing me lots of anxiety at some point in my life and led me to seek out gender-related content on the interwebs (bad idea, in hindsight! :D) It certainly can help being more aware that women face certain difficulties, and it's good to find ways to communicate you don't want to put her under pressure.

But I find the discourse on dating/romance/sex on /r/MensLib to be so much doom and gloom, just in the opposite way to the MGTOW/incel corner of the internet. As if it's reduced to being yet another big vehicle for oppressing women and perpetuating toxic gender roles. There seem to be many guys who take their cautiousness very far and wear it almost as a badge of pride: "Well, I'm miserable and lonely as fuck, and I repress a part of myself, but at least my conscience is clean since I know I will never accidentally make a woman feel uncomfortable or awkward for 2 seconds because I complimented her hair or something".

The terrible thing about this is, I've been there - except without the jargon and ideology - just the extreme cautiousness and self-censorship coupled with thinking that "at least I'm not an asshole". And it's simply not a healthy attitude. Not for a man, nor his environment. There are so many ways to be respectful while still showing interest in a woman and communicating clearly what you want while leaving room for the other person to take it or leave it. There are so many ways to do this such that 95% to 99% of people won't be the slightest bit offended by it, even if their answer is "no". It's not a crime to show you're interested in forming relationships!

What there isn't, is a 100% foolproof, risk-free way of ensuring that someone won't feel slightly uncomfortable or awkward by an advance, compliment, being asked out or what have you - because they happen to have had a shitty day, or because your face reminds them of an abusive ex or what have you. Any social interaction where you are dealing with two different people with different boundaries is bound to have some minimal risk of hurt attached to it. If you want to take that risk away, what you are left with is a completely sterilized situation where zero risk also means zero reward. There are a few people online who really understand this healthy balance, but they get buried under all the manipulative RedPillers and the timorous male allies.

Under a different account, I used to come to this sub whenever I felt alienated by /r/MensLib (usually when a comment of mine that wasn't 100% aligned with the sub's ideology was kept invisible) to vent. Here you'll tend to find people catastrophizing in a different direction - people who have come into contact with toxic feminist individuals and have a hard time getting over that. Just like people can use "patriarchy" as an all-encompassing threat, "feminism" can take that same place. I was lucky to have a few trusted down-to-earth people in real life to dispel my anxieties what such-and-such on the internet are thinking. And while such people do exist in real life (and in some environments they might be more prevalent than in others), you cannot let their specter lord over you. But turning into an anti-crusader can be just as counterproductive.

That is what I mean when I say that the age we're living in is the Age of the Conspiracy Theorists - it seems like something about the way in which our environment is structured is conducive to thinking this way. But then again, maybe that is a conspiracy theory in and of itself.

Just my two cents.

BCRE8TVE · 2021-03-10T02:07:57+00:00

Hey there,

You've gotten a lot of good advice already, but I thought I might throw in my 2 cents as well.

On the one hand, you're going to get hatred from some women because you are betraying the cause, you are betraying the sisterhood, you are betraying feminism, and you are siding with the patriarchy and the oppressors. This is going to happen, and it is inevitable. I think the best thing you can do is just brace for the torrent of hate and ignore it. If you think there is a worthwhile comment or reflection you can consider that observation, but by and large I don't think you're going to find much of use from that kind of person.

On the other hand, you are going to also face hatred from some men, and this is going to be far more difficult, because you're going to face the most hate probably from some of the men who need the most help.

The problem here is that men have been ignored and have had their issues dismissed and minimized by women for decades, and often doubly so if it came from feminists. Many men have come to see women as the enemy because women have dismissed their issues and their concerns, have denied their experiences, and have either laughed in the face of men's struggles, or sided with women who have laughed at men's struggles. There is a LOT of built-up resentment and anger on the men's side from having been denied, denigrated, and ignored for so long, and it especially stings when it comes from feminists who claim that they care about men's issues, or women who claim they want to help men.

One example that many men will recognize and many women will absolutely fail to understand, is that men feel like their emotions are being fetishized. A man's emotions are not for him, they are to help and support others. No matter how a man feels, it is his job to be kind and caring to his partner when she is feeling distressed, to affirm her and uphold her. Women often tell men they want their men to be vulnerable, but when men truly open up and share the often crippling emotional pain they have, women are entirely unprepared and wnat no part in dealing with that burden. When women say they want men to be vulnerable, too often they just want to feel proud and special because their man opened up to them. Men being vulnerable is not for the benefit of the man, but for the benefit of the woman, so that she can feel special that he shared his emotions with her.

Many men have had these kinds of frankly traumatic emotional experiences, and then have had that trauma invalidated and denied by women, who keep pressuring and demanding that men let themselves be vulnerable with women. Once bitten twice shy as they say, and a man who has made himself vulnerable and then been stabbed in the heart is in no hurry to repeat the experience, and yet he is repeatedly pressured to do exactly that.

These men need help. Often though, the help they want is not in the form of suggestions, it is not in the form of therapy, it is not in the form of talking out their feelings. The most you can do with those men is simply to say that you hear them, that their experiences were horrible, to validate those experiences, and to say you are sorry they went through that. Merely saying "I hear what you are saying" is already far more than most men actually get in terms of help. Far too often men just want to be heard and taken seriously, in a society that ignores and discredits men's issues.

The real thing you can actively do to help men however, is to listen to their stories, and talk to other women and men (but especially the women) to get them to understand the male perspective, to get them to understand the harsh things men go through that get completely ignored and unrecognized.

You cannot be a therapist to all the hurt men online. That is simply not going to be possible. You are going to burn yourself out. If you want to help men, you can help by hearing them out and understanding them, and affirming their experiences. If you try and help every one of them you'll expose yourself to too much vitriol and a veritable flood of terrible experiences.

However you can use your therapeutic background to help others empathize with men and understand men better. It would be tremendously beneficial if you could take men's experiences and translate that into "woman-speak", so other women can relate and sympathize as well. Far too often men are blunt and aggressive in their emotional language, and it does not cross over well at all with other women listening in. Far too often men are told to express their grievances in a way that is palatable to women, to translate their experiences into a foreign language while they're in the midst of all the emotional labour of coming to terms with their unrecognized and dismissed trauma. It's difficult for men, and triply so because often men are not taught any emotional intelligence at all.

I talked with a girl at one point who felt like the therapist was being condescending to her boyfriend because he was using extremely basic emotional concepts, but she was completely flabbergasted to learn that men in general are hugely ignorant of emotional intelligence. We don't have the tools or the words to process what's happening to us, we just have raw emotions, and that more often than not manifests itself in terms of anger and aggression. Women simply do not understand how emotions are processed in most men's heads, and seem to be ignorant of how poorly equipped men are to deal with their own emotions. Instead they are too happy to blame men for failing to use the proper tools they understand, and blame men for failing to act in ways women would expect other women to act.

There's precious little understanding and compassion in the world of men, and far too much expectations and condemnation.

charcoalblueaviator · 2021-03-10T06:36:23+00:00

I am sorry you had to face that. I think because there is an influx of women who make statements about issues men's face and then make it seem like its all because of Men themselves. They blame patriarchy. I personally do not think that this system where men and women both suffer should be named as something dolled out solely by men. Its society as a whole that is the problem. When typically a woman comes along with mostly good Intentions preaching about how everything is due to Masculinity or Patriarchy men do feel targeted. These heavily gendered wordings like mansplaining, manimony and others make it feel like problems that are exclusive to men and they are the whole cause of it. That only if men stopped doing certain things a lot of issues both genders feel would disappear. How can you find sympathy from a whole group when the very core issue of it all is named stating one of them responsible for it.

And Thank You for Recognising that men have issues too and voicing it!

BloomingBrains · 2021-03-09T06:41:39+00:00

Men who were angry that a woman was talking about men's issues

Sounds like you were getting responses from MGTOWS (men going their own way) or something. They're not generally liked around here. They see the problems of gynocentricism, misandry, downplaying male issues, etc. and say "well that's because women are inherently sociopaths and you should avoid them like the demons they are" rather than "maybe it's a toxic ideology corrupting (mostly) innocent and otherwise good people's minds". That's the basic version, anyway.

I have never been attacked from both sides before! I was both accused of being a misandrist that wants to "create more weak men that women can take advantage of"

Yeah, that's kind of the M.O. of those types. Instead of saying "Gee maybe we should protest the fact that men aren't allowed to show emotions" they just double down on the emotional repression. Which is kind of ironic, really. They complain about how society treats them, but their solution to it is to play deeper into those double standards.

I really can't say what particular brand of regressive you were dealing with...red pill guys maybe? They think the ultimate answer to the gender division is to disengage from all romantic connections in a similar way to the MGTOWS but use "game" to (and I'm not even kidding, I've actually heard them say this) "pump and dump as many women as possible". The only reason I bring this all up is words like "alpha" and "beta" get thrown around a lot in those circles, and the quote you gave really reminded me of that rhetoric in a strong way. They think its in female nature to exploit men's emotions for benefit, and so having any makes you weak. Seeking mental health help from a woman would be like the ultimate failure of their doctrine so I'm not surprised they attacked you.

It feels confusing and lonely and I guess I am trying to figure out -- where in the heck do I belong? Does anyone see the world the way that I see it and believe in what I believe in??

I was asking myself that for years as I bounced around between the various manosphere groups. It seemed so unbelievable to me that there isn't just simply a group that acknowledges the problems with modern feminism in society without hating women. So trust me, you're not alone.

You guys. I have quickly realized that I can't go into this "war" without a plan, strategies, and support.

Not going to lie, it can get pretty complicated sometimes. There are a lot of factions in this gender war and most of them a pretty terrible. Especially here on reddit. So I would recommend becoming familiar with what they stand for before proceeding. Fortunately, most mens sub-groups will be happy to tell you what they think, even if they aren't the nicest sort. But I wouldn't be surprised if blatantly saying these things on feminist subs would get you banned.

Honestly, I don't really know what to say other than I think its really cool that you're doing this. I guess just ask us any time you have questions.

Jakeybaby125 · 2021-03-08T10:00:50+00:00

It is a pain. I'll give you that. Things are slowly starting to progress. Men are starting to be more recognised. However, another thing I've noticed is that people are starting to become more divided with both the far-left and the far-right extremists and both sides attack the moderates for not being on their side

adam-l · 2021-03-08T10:40:59+00:00

First thing would be to get a good grasp of whether there is such a thing as a "war of the sexes", and pick side. Esther Vilar's "The Manipulated Man" would be your starting point.

Comments