Is all this a good use of our time?

PassivityCanBeBad · 2024-05-17T02:18:26+00:00

This is why they say ignorance is bliss. Once you see things a certain way, it's hard, if not impossible, to go back to the way things were. I get how you feel.

I agree with what u/Educational_Mud_9062 wrote, I just want to add some of my thoughts.

This place does not only exist for established members, but also for newcomers. If discussion ends and the sub dies, that's one less place for positive, quality discussion about male issues. There are other, similar subs, but the ones I've seen are smaller and/or less active. This place is quite alive, so it's the one I regularly engage with, and I feel like there's a lot of quality discussion here. If it didn't exist, I'd probably still be reading MensLib, feeling like something is off with the messaging but not knowing what it was or what to do about it. This place made it click.

This place exists as an archive of frustrations, personal and societal progress, and resources that people can use to feel less alone and find help, hopefully preventing them from succumbing to hopelessness. They find the language and ideas to express their feelings, and they won't put all the blame on themselves when the culture is the one at fault. That's energy that can be directed toward addressing real, pressing issues in one's surroundings and finding healthy company instead of feeling frustrated all the time and being guilt-tripped by "friends".
Care and actual egalitarianism are not the dominant perspectives in society. The dominant perspectives are "men are a problem" (feminism) and "complaining men need to man up" (conservatism/right-wingers). Both are unhelpful, and without places like these, more people would feel more inclined to pick between the two larger options.
If we don't advocate for ourselves and "play the game", no one will do it for us and we'll be played. And even if you as an individual ignore it, your family, friends, co-workers, town/city, and everyone else around you probably are engaging, and what they all do will *still* affect you. There's not really an effective way to drop out unless the people around you are kind/understanding towards you or can become a recluse (and even then, people can still make you a target). I don't say that to make you think you need to spend all day arguing online/in-person or reading about the latest battle. It's just that the wars may come to your doorstep even if you try to stay away.

To be fair, though, I've seen it said on a sub unrelated to this one that internet communities aren't really an effective way to affect change in real life. That's true--talking can only do so much. Dealing with policy and law, going out and volunteering, and organizing in real life are better ways to affect change. But when those efforts are met with resistance and not enough people step up to fight harder or strategize about how to move forward, all we can fall back on is talking to each other and changing others' minds. Until we're taken seriously, this is kind of it, from what I can tell.

Advocacy burnout is a thing, though, so if you want to take a break or think your time for focusing on it is up, there's nothing wrong with stepping away. Just make sure you take care of yourself, be kind, engage in hobbies and productive causes, and surround yourself with kind people. You should be doing that whether or not you're advocating, to be honest.

TL;DR: This is a good refuge for talking about things that are taboo in real life and elsewhere online, without falling either into sexism or putting all the blame on oneself. It would be more productive to organize in real life, but we're fighting an uphill battle and can only make incremental steps at the moment. Until or unless conditions become more favorable, all we can do is talk. Whether you advocate or not, try to cultivate more positivity in your life so it doesn't all drag you down.

Educational_Mud_9062 · 2024-05-17T00:36:19+00:00

I worry about a lot of the same things you're laying out here. If I'm being optimistic, I'd like to think this is what the first steps have to look like. Discussion of male issues in general but especially from a male perspective that might be critical of mainstream feminism is effectively forbidden in our society. The only things close to that which touch the mainstream are Red Pill or Andrew Tate-style stuff and even that's still gynocentric and harmful to most men. It just says, "yeah, women bad, it's how they are, so suck it up and play the game of leaning into all the straining and wildly contradictory expectations of traditional masculinity with a feminist coat of paint," which is a recipe for making everyone miserable except maybe an elite minority at the top of society. So surprise, surprise that a lot of people who buy into or push those positions are right-wing. I didn't know much about men's issues from outside the typical feminist angle of, "anything wrong with men is because of toxic masculinity and ultimately their own fault," before I came here. I stumbled on all this because I could just feel that wasn't all there was to it and was looking for a more compelling explanation. I think a lot of guys are probably still in that space. This stuff is just not talked about outside niche little holes like this sub. So maybe what we're doing is building awareness which can eventually lead to larger movements within academia, government, and culture? Or maybe we're just venting and seeking the catharsis of other people who understand? Maybe both? I'm not sure. But I agree it's worth thinking about once we're on something like the same page and can no longer operate within the dominant liberal feminist paradigm.

Cross55 · 2024-05-17T03:42:35+00:00

A. Did you seriously come up with an entire thread to make people lose the game?

B. I mean, tbh, this is more so just a confirmation space to understand that I'm not crazy.

Growing up, I constantly questioned why certain social norms and double standards existed, but no one would ever give me a straight answer. This led to me having to look for answers myself, and led me to understand that either 1. They didn't know why things were the way they were and didn't care to question it, or 2. They knew exactly why and had a vested interest in keeping things the way they are, which means stamping out free thinkers.

So yeah, having spaces where you can talk about more unpopular or less thought about topics is important for gaining an understanding of the world around you.

eli_ashe · 2024-05-17T01:06:50+00:00

I've been at this since the 90s....

the view back then was far more optimistic looking, and fwiw had a lot of feminist allies at the time, as the notion then really was bout Gender not 'women' per se. indeed, the notion that women were weak and needed help was thought to be part of the problem, whereas now that view seems to have reasserted itself.

sometimes a historical perspective can be helpful.

I've also tended to view this in the following way:

gender is a social construct, with each cultural body comprising its own version of it.

intercultural interactions queer those constructs.

online interactions are intercultural ones, so just by doing the online actions we are queering the cultural constructs. this is potentially a good thing, providing that folks use that opportunity to construct better versions of genders, drawing from the various different cultural views on gender out there, and not merely reaffirming them.

all of this is new tho, and I suspect that for folks in the midst of it all might think its always been like this, it hasn't. the capacity to draw from so many different perspectives on gender is itself new, very new, internet new.

OP is lamenting that this is an unwinnable war that's been going on forever, but to me having been around since the before times of the pre-internet era, all this sort of stuff seems technically quite new, novel, and very winnable, meaning that it is plausible that the cultural wars themselves can subside over time.

The Game. I am familiar with The Game, and there is something to it imho, getting people to realize how foolish it all is can be its own thing and way of dealing with it.

NiceTraining7671 · 2024-05-17T11:35:09+00:00

This sub in particular is important for three reasons:

It gives us a place to discuss issues without feminism overtaking it. I’ve seen people try to bring up men’s issues in feminists spaces in a polite, genuine way, yet the comments all tend to dismiss/downplay the problems or somehow turn it into a discussion about women’s oppression. I’ve realised that men aren’t welcome in many feminist spaces. There are other men’s spaces, but many of them don’t allow criticisms of feminism or any viewpoints which oppose feminism. Plus feminists keep telling us to make our own spaces, so here we are. We deserve to have a space to discuss our issues without having to be apologetic to feminists and make everything about them (in many feminists spaces, I always have to add the “but of course women have it worse” line when discussing men’s issues so I don’t get attacked).
Too many conservatives take over MRA spaces. By conservatives, I mean the extreme types who hate women and don’t actually want to advance men’s rights. Those types of MRAs still want men to follow their gender roles despite criticising women for upholding them. They still believe men should “protect and provide”, and they downplay many issues such as men’s mental health. There are conservative people who do genuinely care about men’s issues, but the vocal ones don’t help us. Many right-leaning MRAs aren’t even “MRAs”, they’re just anti-feminists. Don’t forget that it was conservatives who started the “don’t draft our daughters” movement when the US debated adding women to the draft (I saw many on social media say they’d never let their daughters get drafted, yet they’d expect their sons to “do their duty”).
Even if this space is small, it still gives us men a place to discuss and relate to each other. I’m happy I found this sub because I really need people to relate to, people who understand me. It helps me feel less alone. And even if we haven’t reached the same amount of momentum as feminism, we’ve still opened up discussions on things such as men’s mental health, male loneliness, male suicide, how gender roles oppress men etc.

I’ll be honest. I’m a gay guy who you could say is “stereotypical” in that I am “feminine” when it c9mes to certain things. Growing up, all my friends were girls, so I very much supported feminism as I just didn’t relate to other guys (I didn’t have the same interests as other guys, I disliked things such as sports and gaming). However, after questioning aspects of feminism and discovering spaces like this, I realise that men, even “straight white men” (who feminists will refer to as the privileged oppressors) are oppressed. We all have our own struggles, and I now want to advocate for all men, not just the ones who feminists call “oppressed”. Funnily enough quite a few feminists are now saying that gay men are privileged 🙃

So these spaces do make a difference. They made a difference to me, they opened my eyes and showed me how all men struggle. I’ve seen other feminists also become enlightened from the spaces, and I’ve seen other men who didn’t realise they had issues becomes aware of their struggles through these spaces. So while these spaces are small, they still make a difference :)

Global-Bluejay-3577 · 2024-05-17T01:09:09+00:00

It's hurtful to be told that you're privileged and that your life is easy when the polar opposite is true. The role(s) of men has been eroded over the past half-century, I know, and the paths to status, self-esteem and meaning are unclear or impossible to access for many of us.

You hit the mark with this statement; the psychological burden men face today is enormous.

There will never be a perfect society; we can allocate only a limited amount of resources for the sake of humanity as a whole, but if there is a dearth of resources being invested into the welfare of the male gender, only activism can achieve that.

flaumo · 2024-05-17T06:58:41+00:00

This space helps me to keep my sanity. It allows me to exist openly and think and speak. It is incredibly helpful for me and my survival in this world.

ArmchairDesease · 2024-05-17T14:11:45+00:00

In a way, it's similar to porn. You engage in it because you feel an impulse. But in the back of your mind you feel bad with yourself, because you know that there are better ways to spend your limited time on this earth.

While in porn the need is physical, here it's purely psychological. I come here, to be honest, because I feel lonely. I have thoughts about our world and the relationship between sexes that I don't feel I can express in my daily life, because of how I would be judged. This is the only space where I can detach my opinions from my identity and feel as if I'm not alone in these feelings.

But when I log out, I feel even lonelier than before. I think this is because Reddit is a wildly alienating and inhuman experience. Writing here is like talking to voices in my brain. Even now, as I type, I have no way of knowing if I'm responding to a human being or to a word generator. But even if everyone here was a real person, given how little we perceive of each other's humanity, it's still as if I'm talking to a robot. It's depersonalized, unnatural and cold.

But if we all turned off the internet and kept these feelings for ourselves, expressing them only in occasional awkward rants, then our point of view would never spread enough to cause some change. We come here to work out our thoughts and emotions in order for us to have them more clearly flashed out, and for anyone to be able to read them. There is simply no system in the offline world where even a fraction of such communication power is possible.

Just like with porn, the point is control. We shouldn't be ashamed to "waste" some of our time here. If we're here, it's in response to some need deep inside us. But it shouldn't be totalizing in a way that boycotts the rest of your life. I don't want to watch the clock at the end of a Reddit session and realize I've thrown hours in a black hole. But I'm more than happy to consciously sit down and decide that I'll dedicate my next 1 hour to the internet. It's not easy and arriving at that point is a work in progress for me.

KatsutamiNanamoto · 2024-05-17T04:41:55+00:00

It's better to understand than to be ignorant. So, yes, it's a good use of our time. Obviously, next logical step - seizing of political power and establishing actually egalitarian world order - is much more complicated, but it surely won't ever be achieved without places like LWMA. After all, there are other things that got somewhat better (even if obviously still not the best) in human society, like average working conditions. Improvements require work, but that work needs theoretical basis. And providing this basis - is on us. I mean, who else?

POO_IN_A_LOO · 2024-05-17T09:45:52+00:00

my questions are asked sincerely, and that can never be a bad starting or ending point for - something

Same could be said about most of the discussions and questions here. There aren't that many spaces where these sort of discussions can take place, certainly not in academia. It is healthy to be aware that this is just yet another bubble, which does not reflect society as a whole, and that a lot of the topics are based on grievances we have with our lived experiences. The result is that a lot of the discussion provokes negative feelings and at worst stereotypes. This is something to be aware of.

You pose the question if "this all" is productive or not, and I posit that it depends on you. Change is often difficult and uncomfortable, and only you decide for yourself if you are content enough with how things are or if things need to change, yourself included. Nobody else is going to do this for you.

Would we perhaps be happier just cutting social media out of our lives and training ourselves to become less reactive?

I fear it is too late. While you could cut off social media, you're still surrounded by people who don't.

Personally, I took a year long break from reddit and some other platforms because I felt like I had become antagonistic to the point that it tainted some of the discussions I wanted to have. I started to see opponents that I needed to win and the issues became somewhat secondary. It was also very taxing to be so combative. I started to hate that red message icon that indicated a reply to me.

While taking the break proved valuable for introspection, I feel apathy for the sake of comfort is the most unproductive way to live your life in the long run. Your values decide where you concentrate your efforts, or rather where you concentrate your efforts describe your values. Be well.

___bruce · 2024-05-17T19:25:45+00:00

Would we perhaps be happier just cutting social media out of our lives and training ourselves to become less reactive?

I have to say, you are completely wrong. Men are being harmed at different levels in real life. If men were just demonized in social media only and did not face any real world issues your statement could be considered acceptable.

But does being here help in any way?

Not directly. In my opinion, unless some political party starts representing men's interest these problems won't go away. Because, a lot of the problems are caused by different powerful institutions.

But, men can form and show unity through forums like this. It may encourage a political party to finally realize that politically it is a good strategy to represent men's issue.

Richardsnotmyname · 2024-05-17T01:03:49+00:00

Until this movement can actually get a consensus or a doctrine and mobilize and advocate for change in a meaningful way, we could do nothing.

WokeUpIAmStillAlive · 2024-05-17T05:30:32+00:00

I think we examine feminism to not make the same mistakes. I believe being here will do little, it's often more depressing. I posted a post here a short while ago asking how we make it better, no one responded. I believe it will come to a full on gender stand off, where men aim to lead the charge for the so called patriarchy to make enormous changes to laws for both men's and women's well being. Likely our government will be an enemy or at the very least an obstacle as it is now for the well being of humans.

Reset_reset_006 · 2024-05-18T02:27:17+00:00

It depends really, like for instance this place is a god send for ACTUALLY talking about male issues. This place exists because gender discussion is constantly being pushed in our faces or at least with me growing up that it was impossible to avoid it.

Regardless, the sad truth is I just stopped caring as much in general because my personal life needed WAY more work and it had nothing to do with gender discussions. Sure the talk about gender ruined my mental and affected my personal life in a big way but what I realized is I’m so far behind in life because of it I need to let it go and focus on the real world.

I’m in a way better position mentally than I’ve ever been. This sad truth is at the end of the day no one cares if we give a shit about men OR women, there’s this sense of ego at least for me where it feels like I know all the obvious answers and if I do this and talk about that things will change but bottom line is I’m just an average human and that’s okay. I just need to work, eat, shit and sleep and I’m content with that.

Blauwpetje · 2024-05-18T05:30:44+00:00

Writing on this sub, we won’t change the world. In a way, it IS an echo chamber. But still an echo chamber in which people can get informed, get links to interesting articles and videos etc., so they’re better armed for the fight in the evil world outside. I always recommend people do that more than they do now, (ie mingle in discussions in more ‘neutral’ spaces) but also that they watch over their own health and mood while doing it; I myself sometimes neglected that latter part.

Except for exchanging information, this sub is crucial for the attendants for making sure they’re not the ones who are crazy. Too many people these days get exhausted and/or stopped being politically active altogether because they never find anybody, let alone a group of people, even nearly agreeing with them. This is a group of men with similar opinions, but differing enough not to become a cult, and that’s already enough to not stop with it.

Then, the cracks in the feminist narrative are showing, if only because the power of liberal and leftist ideology is dwindling. The latter may not be good news, but it can make our role and that of the likes of us more important in the future (maybe within two years, maybe in seven years - who knows). Still feminism defends its position by suggesting the only alternative are the likes of Andrew Tate - and who wants to be associated with that. Whenever that happens (in debates online f ex) we can make clear there’s also Warren Farrell, there’s Cassie Jaye, there’s Helen Pluckrose, and there’s us, just to name a few examples, and all with links so people can see for themselves.

Patience is crucial in this battle. In the meantime, let it not absorb your life and exhaust you. 10.000 LWMA’s all doing small things are of more importance than a handful putting all their energy into it and getting exhausted.

Johntoreno · 2024-05-19T19:30:42+00:00

Can we even disengage from gender politics? it seems unavoidable, a line has been drawn in the sand and you're either with them or against them and i choose to be against them because i hate authoritarians telling to me what to think.

Would we perhaps be happier just cutting social media out of our lives and training ourselves to become less reactive?

Doesn't matter, the effects of ideological takeover is inescapable. Its not simply limited to twitter anymore, its in your schools,unis&office policy, movies,tv and video games. The fact is that Feminism has taken over and its not changing anytime soon, you can't put the genie back into the bottle. The apriori of men being oppressors has become crystalized in liberal collective consciousness.

mamapizzahut · 2024-05-21T22:47:57+00:00

TLDR. But the "seeing misandry everywhere" caught my attention. Don't turn into one of those people man.

I know it seems cool and trendy to be a victim these days. In my opinion, whether you are right or left wing, male or female, ultra feminist or a Bible thumping conservative, imagining like the world is after you is never a good look (and it is very rarely true).

Women have some benefits, men have theirs. But individual characteristics are always going to be the deciding factor, not social trends. If people aren't hiring you, it's primarily not because you're a man, or woman, or balck or white, it's because your resume or experience isn't currently interesting.

Take responsibility for your life, and don't take it too seriously. We are crawling on a tiny spec in an endless universe that couldn't even. History is filled with people who thought they were deciding the fate of the world, but are completely forgotten as if they never existed. Enjoy the show while it lasts.

Alpha0rgaxm · 2024-05-17T18:52:01+00:00

Yes, this is a noble cause that could actually be achievable. Modern day feminism isn’t and more akin to fascism and bigotry than anything

radulakoleszka · 2024-06-11T23:25:46+00:00

Is all this a good use of our time?

No, I don't think so.

captainhornheart · 2024-05-16T20:33:32+00:00

I seem to have fucked up the link to The Game and I'm damned if I'm going to fiddle around fixing it now. Here's the link: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Game_(mind_game)

Comments