Q4W: where does the following reasoning go wrong?

Windmill_flowers · 2024-11-22T14:52:01+00:00

Where does this line of reasoning go wrong, what part of it you disagree with?

4 is where it goes off the rails:

Listen to men's general grievances of women that spam across cultures. These could be that when women are evil

The specific things that males across cultures complain about are not "evil". They're just a manifestation of how frustration is displayed between two people.

For example, a male may be perfectly fine cleaning up once a month around the house. The woman however finds that to be slovenly, so she speaks up

Now she feels like he's intentionally leaving the majority of household duties to her because she's a woman

He feels like she's nagging the hell out of him because he's a male.

Nothing here is evil

attendquoi · 2024-11-22T15:02:27+00:00

The "evil" bit. If you really think women are evil, stop bothering us.

EulenWatcher · 2024-11-22T15:08:23+00:00

It’s very contextual and depends on exactly we’re talking about. There are a lot of valid things men complain about that we should pay attention to. There are also some “grievances” that come from entitlement or disdain towards women due to personal experience or culture.

I.e. I get men complaining about the expectation to pay for all dates, but I do not get men complaining that women don’t cover their hair or wear too short skirts.

Plus, a lot of men and women’s problems with the other gender are the result of their own doing and/or gender stereotypes both genders suffer from.

SnoopyDru · 2024-11-22T15:05:43+00:00

Women are flawed human beings just like men, they aren't massively better people overall, just socialized differently, and they have different biological realities too.

This is true.

Men do have distinct generalizable negative tendencies that are more typical of them. Physical violence, objectification, aggressive kind of entitlement, etc.

No, I don't believe this is true of men in general. That's not typical male behavior.

MyLastBestChance · 2024-11-22T14:56:26+00:00

So…men want to take women against their will. They also want these women to want to be taken but will take them anyway and resent them for it.

Women don’t want to be taken against their will. They can’t be compelled to desire their own subjugation and try to avoid it.

Hmmmm…

mashedturnip · 2024-11-22T15:37:22+00:00

Your biology and socialization is pretty much all you are. If that sucks, you suck
Men have a biological and social incentive to treat women as inferior and contemptible, and to consider women who resist these incentives evil and malicious
Luckily, those motives are largely selfish, so group motives balance them out
Due to these incentives, women haven’t had the right to make their own decisions until about 50-100 years ago. Since they have had this right, things have not become twice as bad, excepting environmental damage due to an exploding population

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CatchPhraze · 2024-11-22T17:32:34+00:00

4 is the fallacy. Just because I have an issue with someone's behavior does not make that behavior bad or my issue justified.

If I'm upset you won't give me your car for free for example, is that a display of you having negative traits or me having unrealistic expectations?

Xeltar · 2024-11-22T17:33:36+00:00

I think believing women or men as a group are evil is not a good way of thinking about it. A lot of the way we socialize men does not set them up for success in a modern society. We've removed quite a few privileges of patriarchy (as we should) but not removed expectations of patriarchy and that's unfair to men.

For example, 75% of people believe men should be providers, but that's just a patriarchal tradition with inertia rather than serving a valid purpose.

But yea if you consider men to be flawed but women to be evil, it's clearly misogynistic right?

IcyTrapezium · 2024-11-22T15:02:54+00:00

Men don’t objectify more than women. Women objectify people in all types of ways on basically a daily basis. We all do. If you mean sexual objectification, women do that too. Women just don’t tend to view it as a problem when THEY do it. Women talk about men’s penis size and height in very objectifying ways. Sure, not all women. And not all men comment on women’s appearances. But enough do it that it shows a pattern of behavior. As men often point out women will openly objectify a man regarding money as well.

By the way, men will also objectify women regarding money. Pretty boys use women for money all the time but red pill men ignore that. I see plenty of posts on Reddit and plenty of women IRL who pay men’s bills and let them live rent free with them. Hell, I have a guy friend who just moved in with his girlfriend and hasn’t paid rent yet. She’s madly in love with him and he’s been avoiding moving in with her but his landlord decided to drastically increase his rent and suddenly he’s ready to play house. I have an inordinate amount of male under-employed musician friends and women fucking love paying their bills if it means they get more access. I guess what I’m saying is: bitches love hot broke musicians and they’ll pay their bills. Men who aren’t aware of women paying men’s bills are just ignorant of this common dynamic.

Plenty of men aren’t violent. People who are violent are definitely more likely to be men, but men aren’t automatically prone to violence. That’s largely socialized. I grew up going to boarding schools and the boys I grew up with never got in fights. I asked my dad once if he ever got in a fist fight in his life and he looked at me like I was crazy. This is a delicate subject because people are sensitive about class, but many highly educated men view participating in violence of any kind as trashy. It’s something lower class people do (in their mind). Obviously some highly educated men are violent, but my point is culture influences men a lot. Men who come from cultures where engaging in violence is seen as a low status behavior aren’t likely to engage in it.

That’s my only critique of this really.

Makuta_Servaela · 2024-11-22T15:41:41+00:00

Listen to men's general grievances of women that spam across cultures and consider them having a kernel of truth to them.

The fact that a person has a grievance doesn't mean the specific issue they are complaining about is actually the root cause. For example, say a dog snaps at a kid, and you think this means the dog is evil. Is it that the dog is just aggressive and trying to hurt the kid, or that the kid yanked his tail and the dog just responded with a warning snap, not even trying to make contact? You could pick on the kid for pulling the tail, you could pick on the dog for having a snap-response, but if the only perspective you take is the kid's (because the dog can't talk), then you may not even learn that the kid pulled the tail or that the dog didn't actually try to make contact.

This is especially an issue with historical and cultural records: virtually all of them were written, published, and/or reviewed by men. Not all men could write, but through most of history, men were and are the arbiters of what records got out and what gets accepted as "normal" or what gets brushed off as "other" and "fringe". Men run social media sites, men ran printing presses, the wives of famous male writers in history often diaried about their own laments of being unallowed to publish too, or publish under their own names as opposed to male pseudonyms. When we see men's general grievances, we often see the men's side only. When we see women's grievances, we often see specifically the ones that cater to men/other men, or else are written off as those women being against all men.

Unhappy_Offer_1822 · 2024-11-22T17:50:50+00:00

its very black and white thinking and the entire argument is based on a comparison which doesnt really make sense

one is not better than the other they are just different in some ways but also can be similar in some ways. this is not only determined by gender but also by various other variables.

the "evil" traits you describe are not gendered and can appear in men and women. these are also very subjective terms and can be dependent on context

for example what do we mean when someone is manipulative

does this mean telling a small white lie or basically something on a con artist level. this can mean different things to different people

Title	Q4W: where does the following reasoning go wrong?
Author	FuuraKafu
Upvotes	1
Comments	42
Date	November 22, 2024 2:40 PM UTC (1 year ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/PurplePillDebate
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/PurplePillDebate/comments/1gx9bdb/q4w_where_does_the_following_reasoning_go_wrong/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/PurplePillDebate/q4w-where-does-the-following-reasoning-go-wrong.1536554 https://theredarchive.com/post/1536554

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