Millennial dads are experiencing something mums have known for a long time | Gaby Hinsliff

[–]SarcasticallyCandour 62 points63 points64 points 10 months ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]Findol272 50 points51 points52 points 10 months ago (3 children) | Copy Link

[–]Gayfunguy 37 points38 points39 points 10 months ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]Findol272 27 points28 points29 points 10 months ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]ExternalGreen6826feminist guest 0 points1 point2 points 9 months ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]coolfunkDJleft-wing male advocate 185 points186 points187 points 10 months ago (24 children) | Copy Link

[+]ExternalGreen6826feminist guest -103 points-102 points-101 points 10 months ago (19 children) | Copy Link

[–]coolfunkDJleft-wing male advocate 133 points134 points135 points 10 months ago* (0 children) | Copy Link

It’s not nitpicky at all because it plays into a larger context you seem to be missing, wilfully or not I don’t know.

Feminists deny misandry is real. They do this by framing every male issue as “patriarchy”, if a man can’t cry, it’s because women are the victims. If men are more likely to be homeless, it’s because women are the victims. If men are less likely to receive custody, it’s because women are the victims.

Ever heard of all paths lead to Rome? it’s that exact fallacy, any argument you bring up as to why men are oppressed will always inevitably lead back to “it’s the patriarchy, and so women are the true victims.”

So no, I don’t think it’s accidental that this article highlighting an issue men are facing (being expected to be breadwinners and being expected to step up in responsibilities), is written by a woman who makes it an issue about women.

It would be nitpicking if it wasn’t a consistent and obvious pattern, but it is.

[–]TheDwiin 63 points64 points65 points 10 months ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]ExternalGreen6826feminist guest 1 point2 points3 points 9 months ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]MelissaMirantileft-wing male advocate 57 points58 points59 points 10 months ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]EijiUrashima 56 points57 points58 points 10 months ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]Due-Heron-5577 19 points20 points21 points 10 months ago* (3 children) | Copy Link

nitpicky

Okay, so you’ve put up a defensive barrier here. You’re probably not aware of it, but what you’re doing is called minimisation.

When someone is going through it, taking that as your queue to tell them that you think you totally had it so much worse and they were a really bad ally just nukes the relationship at that point. The irony of calling someone a bad ally while being the polar opposite of an ally is palpable.

Feminists do this a lot unfortunately. You might be new to conversations like this, we hear it all the time. It’s their favourite thought-terminating cliché.

Not all feminists, but a lot of feminists, seem to be quite emotionally immature and this is one of the ways that it comes out. They seem to register any mention of men’s issues as something threatening that they have to either invalidate or one up. It’s unironically a massive barrier to progress that seems to underpin a lot of the backlash to men’s advocacy online, in journalism, on university campuses and even in western governments. Do you think that calling it out is nitpicking?

[–]TheDdken 2 points3 points4 points 9 months ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]ExternalGreen6826feminist guest 0 points1 point2 points 9 months ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]Due-Heron-5577 0 points1 point2 points 9 months ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]KPplumbingBob 34 points35 points36 points 10 months ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]one_orange_braincell 22 points23 points24 points 10 months ago (6 children) | Copy Link

[–]ExternalGreen6826feminist guest 0 points1 point2 points 9 months ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]ExternalGreen6826feminist guest -4 points-3 points-2 points 10 months ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]ExternalGreen6826feminist guest -2 points-1 points0 points 9 months ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]ExternalGreen6826feminist guest -5 points-4 points-3 points 10 months ago (2 children) | Copy Link

[–]Sleeksnail 0 points1 point2 points 9 months ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]ExternalGreen6826feminist guest 0 points1 point2 points 9 months ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]Over_Statement4694 3 points4 points5 points 9 months ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[+]ExternalGreen6826feminist guest -64 points-63 points-62 points 10 months ago (3 children) | Copy Link

[–]lorarc 41 points42 points43 points 10 months ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]Low_Rich_5436 13 points14 points15 points 10 months ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]Potential_Brother119 1 point2 points3 points 9 months ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]Rayvinbladeleft-wing male advocate 33 points34 points35 points 10 months ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]henrysmyagent 53 points54 points55 points 10 months ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]rammo123 110 points111 points112 points 10 months ago (20 children) | Copy Link

[–]SpicyMarshmellow 27 points28 points29 points 10 months ago (17 children) | Copy Link

[–]Atlasatlastatleast 6 points7 points8 points 10 months ago (2 children) | Copy Link

[–]SpicyMarshmellow 6 points7 points8 points 10 months ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]Atlasatlastatleast 1 point2 points3 points 10 months ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]ThatRandomCrit 3 points4 points5 points 10 months ago (7 children) | Copy Link

[–]SpicyMarshmellow 16 points17 points18 points 10 months ago (6 children) | Copy Link

You guys asked for it. TLDR incoming. I don't know how else to impart this to you.

My ex was extremely emotionally unstable. I'm very certain she had undiagnosed Borderline Personality Disorder. I can confidently say she meets at least 7 of the 9 diagnostic criteria, and only 5 are required for a diagnosis.

She came into my life in the year 2000, and I learned in the early 2000's, before we had our first kid, that my state has a mandatory arrest policy targeting men in response to domestic calls. I learned about this when it happened to someone in my social circle. His girlfriend flew into a rage when they were having an argument and started trashing their place. Neighbors heard the noise and called the police. Police arrested him, because they saw bruises on her wrist from his mild attempts to restrain her. She snapped out of her frenzy and begged them not to arrest her boyfriend. Told them that she'd lost control and the situation was on her. They told her they didn't have a choice. They were required to arrest him by state policy.

My ex tried to stab me once. The reason I became trapped in this relationship is in the first couple years, she would threaten suicide if I expressed any complaints about the relationship, or tried to exercise the autonomy to maintain social connections she didn't want me to. In my late teens, I simply wasn't emotionally equipped to be faced with suicide threats. This one night, she grabbed a knife and started to saw at her wrist. When I tried to take it from her, she turned that knife against me with an icepick stab. I caught her wrist, and wrestled the knife away. But have wondered ever since if police showed up that night, I would have been arrested for leaving a bruise on her wrist. That hung over my head, and this gave her a lot of power. Her approach to any argument was to escalate, and there would always come a point where I'd get intimidated and back down.

And no matter how insane she behaved, it always seemed like I was the one who got criticism. Men, women, it didn't matter. She could tell someone "my boyfriend didn't get me a birthday present", for example, and I would get a lecture. Nevermind that she controlled our money and got angry at times when I did try to get her a gift. She could behave however she wanted, and her behavior would always be my fault for not being a good enough boyfriend. This was what she sold, and just about everyone we'd meet would buy that unquestioningly.

When we had our first kid in 2004, I only worked part-time and went to school until the kid was about 3 years old. I reduced my class load to only a couple courses a semester and minimized my time on campus, and was only away from home a few hours a day. Despite this, our daily routine was her immediately handing me the kid, with a dramatic "OH MY GOD IVE HAD HIM ALL DAY IT'S YOUR FUCKING TURN", the moment I walked in the door. I was pretty much exclusively the parent any time I was at home, which was most of the time. She only had to be a parent like 4 or 5 hours a day.

[–]SpicyMarshmellow 16 points17 points18 points 10 months ago (5 children) | Copy Link

Despite this, when that kid was around 6 years old (and to be fair, I was working full time at this point), she decided she wanted to put him on ADHD medications. She insisted he was hyper-active and had a problem. And of course I'd spent more time with the kid than she had, and had more experience with kids (I'm the oldest of 4). I knew that our kid's behaviors were pretty normal. He just had totally normal little kid energy. I was vehemently against this. But it was too much for her. She made a doctor's appointment to try and get a prescription. They gave her some questionnaires for herself and some elementary school staff to fill out (of course I wasn't given one to fill out). Then at the follow-up appointment, a nurse took us to our room, handed the questionnaires off to someone to be reviewed, and immediately started writing up a prescription. She asked both of us to confirm if that this was what we wanted. Of course my ex said yes. This was the first time my input had been allowed, and I told the nurse directly "I think this is wrong. I don't think our kid has ADHD. I do not want this. But I don't feel like I have a voice here." The nurse stared at me blankly for a few seconds... then resumed writing up the prescription.

As she was handing it over to my wife to sign, a social worker burst in the door and told us to stop. That our kid does not have ADHD, and it would be wrong to proceed with this. That social worker then took us to another room to have a meeting with a team of social workers (all women) to talk about our home life. This turned into a lecture session against me. My ex just cried for a few minutes about how overwhelmed she felt, with zero actual substantiation as to what her reasons were for feeling that way. I was never given the opportunity to talk about how I felt. There was no exploration of what our actual distribution of responsibilities was. I just got scolded about how I needed to step up and do more, because they could see on my wife's face how much she was struggling.

I was reminded again my of place around the same time, when one night she was driving, and I was on the phone with one of our friends making plans. I remember we had our 2nd kid in 2008, and he was still in a car seat, less than 2 years old. So late 2000's. I had a very basic flip phone, no speaker phone, and no pairing with the car. I was playing middle-man, relaying what my wife and our friend were saying back and forth to each other, so she could focus on driving. Very abruptly, she went stone-faced silent, peeled the fuck out, pulled into a large parking lot, got out of the car, and started walking. To this day, I have no idea what triggered this. I was stunned, and didn't have the presence of mind to consider what it would look like, as I switched to the driver's seat and pulled up next to her to ask WTF just happened. In less than 2 minutes, 5 police cars pulled up all at once and surrounded me. Thankfully, my ex snapped out of it and told the police that we were just having an argument, and they let it go. She held my life in her hand at that moment.

I think she had postpartum with our 2nd kid. For the first year or so of that kid's life, she didn't even want to look at him. She was repulsed by the poor kid. She eventually got over it, and actually developed an extremely favoritist relationship with the 2nd kid, while at the same time becoming even more detached as a parent. From the time our 2nd kid was like 2 to 9 years old, my ex would lock herself in the bedroom all day when I was at work and play League of Legends with a following of men online that would lavish her with attention. I actually plugged her account into a tool I found one time that would tell you what your total play time was... probably around 2012? I found she'd spent an average of 8 hours a day *in matches* over the course of the past year. Just in matches. Time in lobbies between matches or just hanging out with her LoL friends not measured. And when I got home, she'd be waiting at the door immediately wanting me to help her with chores, and spend quality time with her. There were times she snapped at me for merely asking "Can I take my coat off first?..."

[–]SpicyMarshmellow 15 points16 points17 points 10 months ago (4 children) | Copy Link

And her emotional terrorism just got continually worse over time. More and more impossible to have an actual conversation with about anything. More quickly resorting to threats and screaming. We had a major fight in 2010, when we started to become friends with another couple. And the very first time I was ever alone with one of them (this being only the 3rd time in 10 years I'd been in a social situation outside of work/school without my wife present), they told me they were very uncomfortable with how I was treated in my relationship. This was the first time in 10 years that anyone (besides my parents) had ever noticed and expressed concern for me, even after many instances of being openly verbally and emotionally abused in public. I broke down and told them everything. And my wife could smell it on me when I got home. I told her that if she kicked them out of our life because of this, that I would pursue divorce. She did, and I didn't follow through on my threat. Because I was afraid of what would happen to our kids if she got primary custody, and I wasn't there anymore to do what I could for them. For the last 10 years that we were together, I had given up and was only sticking around to protect the kids.

Throughout those years I'd go looking online for help sometimes. Any advice at all for men in abusive situations. Legal advice. Resources. I'd find absolutely nothing. The only thing I'd find is horror stories from other men. Of losing their kids, and having the narrative flipped on them. And these stories matched up with my personal experiences. Once or twice a year, I'd go look at the National Domestic Violence Hotline website. My ex was rarely physically violent. But I knew that if I was a woman, my situation would still be seen as bad enough to warrant a call. But I'd see the gender-coded language, the power and control wheel on the front page, and that Jackson Kantz video on their media page about "Domestic violence is a men's issue, because it's men who need to stop doing it". And I'd be reminded every time that this resource isn't for me. To make that call felt dangerous to even attempt. And I've since learned that about 60% of men who call such hotlines report having their calls redirected to Duluth Model-style programs for rehabilitating wife batterers, or just get laughed at or accused of being the abuser over the phone and then hung up on.

Our 2nd kid developed a habit of coping with the neglect by starting fights with his older brother. This started in his toddler years, pretty soon after he started talking. She would always take his side, because it was simply the path of least resistance to tell the older kid that he's supposed to be the responsible one. She didn't have to care about what was actually going on, if she could just respond with that as a blanket stance to every situation and punish him for failing as an older brother. And younger brother would get some attention out of it. This spiraled out of control to the point that by the time our older son was 14, he was having a total mental breakdown. He was losing his grip on reality, having severe dissociation (I had conversations with the personality splits that he began developing), acting out more and more at school, and trying to slowly kill himself by sabotaging his blood sugars (he's been Type 1 diabetic since age 4). And his mom wanted to respond to everything with escalating punishment. She split (as in the borderline trait) against the poor kid *hard*.

I started seeking help. I didn't have a choice anymore. It was do or die for my son. When questioned about his horrible blood sugars at a doctor's appointment, I explained to them how bad things were. They brought in a social worker. The social worker simply told me "It's time to get a divorce" and handed me phone #s for a couple lawyers. That was it. I talked to staff at both our kid's schools. They'd just tell me "hope you've got a good lawyer and you're telling them all this stuff!" I opted into legal insurance through my work, and called at least a dozen lawyers in the network and the ones offered by the social worker at the doctor's office. They all either didn't want to take my case or just told me they'd got burned out on contested divorces and didn't do them anymore. I found one lawyer through a co-worker's recommendation who didn't turn me down, but quoted $15,000 to take the case... when we were at that same time filing backruptcy because of my wife's insane spending habits, and I hadn't even had access to my own money for the past 20 years. I found out another male co-worker at the same time was also going through a divorce. He had screenshots and audio recordings of his wife openly admitting to spending the family's money on hard drugs (as in meth and cocaine) to enjoy with her extramarital affair partners, and this guy's lawyer told him that pursuing custody of his children even with that kind of evidence would be a waste of money.

[–]SpicyMarshmellow 15 points16 points17 points 10 months ago (3 children) | Copy Link

There was one night I had the opportunity to just run. My wife was going to a show a distance away. She was going to be gone for a predictable few hours, and I had a week's worth of advance knowledge of this. I made arrangements with my parents to help me move out quickly that night while she was gone and leave with the kids. But my sister talked to a friend whose dad is a cop. She passed word back to us that if I went through with that plan, it would be considered kidnapping. So I cancelled that, and instead went to the police station that night to ask an officer what I can do. The officer's only recommendation was to start secretly recording everything... which I did, and still do to this day. Note that of every authority or resource I talked to *this was the only actionable advice and closest thing to real help I ever received*.

My son even said some things at school that got Child Protective Services to show up at our house once to investigate. I'm dead serious right now, and still have the secret recording I made of this event. The CPS agent's investigation lasted about 15 minutes. She gathered the whole family around our dining room table, and asked our older son to recount his allegations right there in front of his mom. He ranted very emotionally for a few minutes about all the ways she was abusive towards him. When he was done, she turned to his mom and asked if these allegations were true. Of course, she said no. Then she asked me... and my whole body erupted with danger sense alarms about this situation. I DID NOT TRUST this woman. So I also said no. And I think my instincts were vindicated by her response. The CPS agent immediately snapped her notebook shut and announced that she considered the case closed. Then lectured us about how this is a classic case of what she sees all the time in her line of work. That all teenage boys go through a phase where they hate their mothers, and recommended that we discipline our child more harshly and even consider sending him to boarding school.

That happened at the very end of the school year. My wife was furious about the CPS visit, and wanted to literally remove everything from the poor kid's room and lock him in there the entire summer with nothing to do but stare at empty walls as punishment. I wasn't going to allow it. I sent the kid to stay with my parents, told my wife it was over, and grey-rocked. Minimalized my interactions with her at home, refused to discuss anything, and when she wanted to fight with me, I'd just stare through her as she yelled at me until she got bored. I was working from home at this point, and this was how I lived for the next 2 years. Until she finally gave up and decided on her own to move out, which I mostly paid for. I paid for several months of her first year moved out, which I was only able to do by uber driving as a 2nd job, living as cheaply as possible myself, and the Covid stimulus checks. That was what I had to do to finally get my kid and I out of that situation. She moved out in 2020.

We were together for 20 years, and because of society's attitudes and the leverage that offered her, she spent most of that time as a free ride. She worked maybe 3 of those 20 years, and slept or played video games and ignored the kids while I was at work, mostly saving household chores for when I got home to do with her. And despite all that, she could go cry to just about anyone, even authorities, and they'd automatically take her side and be scornful enough towards me to not even allow me the opportunity to speak for myself, always telling me I needed to do more. And I think it's overwhelmingly likely that if I'd done anything differently, my older son would be dead.

[–]ThatRandomCrit 11 points12 points13 points 10 months ago (2 children) | Copy Link

[–]SpicyMarshmellow 10 points11 points12 points 10 months ago* (1 child) | Copy Link

Thanks.

And oh man. I forgot to mention another instance where I tried to tell a doctor about what was going on. We had an ER visit, because he had a severe episode of ketoacidosis. I explained to the doctor that my son was suicidal and why, as the root cause of our visit.

The (female) doctor leaned over my son in the hospital bed, and asked him in a baby-speak mocking voice "Oooooh are you suicidal? Do you want to kill yourself?" And then didn't even give him the chance to respond to her. She immediately turned to me and said "Sorry we're just obligated to ask these questions" and left the room. I was fucking stunned. That hospital visit ended with me being intimidated by security. If I hadn't already been so overwhelmed by life, there would have been a lawsuit.

What country are you from, btw?

[–]ThatRandomCrit 8 points9 points10 points 10 months ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]Local-Willingness784 1 point2 points3 points 9 months ago (5 children) | Copy Link

man, i have had some experiences with messy divorce cases and seem some stuff at the lawyer offfice and my lectures but nothing quite prepares you to see something like this, much less to live it and unfortunately, is very hard to litigate these kinds of cases, and that is even outside of america so for all that i know your state may have more awfull laws, so i honestly dont know what to tell you.

but if you could allow me to ask you about something, i personally interact with a lot of incels or guys who have issues with wanting to date women but not having any luck with it, would you have any advice for them based on your situation? not in like how to date better or anything but some words you would have for a man desperate to be desired or validated by a woman, i imagine these would be the last thing on your mind with all the stuff you have been thru but if you had something to say i would appreciate it.

[–]SpicyMarshmellow 2 points3 points4 points 9 months ago (4 children) | Copy Link

but if you could allow me to ask you about something, i personally interact with a lot of incels or guys who have issues with wanting to date women but not having any luck with it, would you have any advice for them based on your situation? not in like how to date better or anything but some words you would have for a man desperate to be desired or validated by a woman, i imagine these would be the last thing on your mind with all the stuff you have been thru but if you had something to say i would appreciate it.

I'll try to think on this and may add on later, but here are my initial rambling thoughts.

First, my ex doesn't represent women. Her behavior doesn't reflect on anyone but herself. Women are human beings. Period. And human beings, men, women, or otherwise, are wildly varied.

Also, I don't even mean to villainize my ex for the things she did. My feelings towards her are complicated, for sure, but despite everything, I don't hate her. I hope she goes on to have a decent life. I partially lead with describing her disorder as a means of defending her. She was an extremely damaged person, and I was a bleeding heart. That's how our relationship formed in the first place. Her mom was basically a feral druggie, who, to the best of my understanding, allowed men to rape my ex when she was as young as 4 years old in exchange for drug money. And neglected her to the point that she remembers stealing dog food from her neighbors out of hunger. When she was 6 years old, her mom started using her to blackmail her family for money, saying that if they didn't give her money for drugs, she was going to sell her into sex trafficking. Her grandparents came and picked her up, and went to court to adopt her.

Here's the wild part. The court set a hearing date for the adoption case, and told my ex and her grandparents directly that all her mom had to do to retain custody was to show up that day. Just show up. Despite being basically the worst, most damaging to her child a parent can possibly fucking be. Knowing this also played a huge part in my reluctance to take my case to family court. Thankfully, her mom didn't show up that day. So she grew up with her grandparents. But then... her grandparents are the people who made her mom what she was. They were a super strict southern baptist military family, who for example would regularly raid her room to seize and destroy contemporary music, and would stab her in the hand with a fork for bad table manners.

I met her online when I was 13, and she became one of my best friends. I had social troubles IRL, so I valued my friends fiercely. When I was 17, she'd gotten away from her family and was couch surfing with friends. It got to the point that she'd worn out her welcome with all of them, and was staying with a couple guys she met at a party, who were trying to demand sexual favors from her in return for a place to stay. I couldn't fucking stand it, and begged my parents to give her our spare room until she could get on her feet. As soon as she showed up, she latched on to me like a vice. But I was too empathetic for my own good. I knew her issues were bad, but I couldn't blame her for them. I could see the connections between her experiences and her behaviors. And my choices were to tank the damage and help her heal, or watch her steal my parent's car and drive off into the sunset to probably kill herself or get herself killed somehow, which I literally played chicken with her in the street multiple times to prevent her from doing. I made a herculean effort to hide how bad things were from my parents, and they were already overwhelmed with other issues at the time.

[–]SpicyMarshmellow 3 points4 points5 points 9 months ago* (3 children) | Copy Link

My ex is/was someone who is capable of great compassion and sacrifice for others as well. And 5 years post-separation, she's changed immensely and is near fully aware and apologetic about how she treated me and our kids. She's put a lot of effort into making amends over the last couple years, and just the feeling of her presence in a room is the opposite of what it used to be. It's just a shame it couldn't happen sooner, and I blame society for that, for disempowering me from doing what was necessary for our situation. She needed to face losing her family to force self-reflection and growth. It wasn't just bad for me and our kids, it was bad for her too. She genuinely didn't realize how she was, and she could have become capable of healthier relationships many years earlier. She could have more of a relationship today with me and her kids than she is likely now to ever have. Borderline is a cognitive disorder that can include severe dissociation and incapability of conscious self-awareness, as a result of early childhood trauma disrupting the normal development of a sense of self. To the best of my understanding, at least, as someone who has done a decent amount of reading on it at this point and had deep conversation with several other people diagnosed with borderline to try and understand.

In summary, first and above all, I don't want anyone to take away from my story any sort of blanket perception of women, or demonization of people with issues.

Second, I'm kind of the last person to ask for dating advice, because I have zero romantic experience with anyone other than my ex, and that relationship didn't form through... anything normal at all, much less dating. I have never been on a date in my life.

I've thought a lot the past 5 years about what I want in terms of a relationship. And this is going to sound very blackpill, but... the one overriding consideration that I just cannot get past is the sense that a man who finds himself involved with a toxic woman has zero recourse. The only thing he can do is walk away, leave behind whatever he needs to leave behind, take whatever lashings on the back she decides to dish out as he walks, and fucking hope that she isn't vindictive enough to pursue and go for the throat. I do not think most women are toxic or dangerous. I am the opposite of blackpill in the sense that I think if I tried, I would have a decent chance of finding a good partner. But I also think that by the time a man gets close enough to a woman to identify her as toxic/dangerous, he's already too close and vulnerable enough that she can ruin his life if she chooses. A large part of me is very bitter about this state of things, and, as insignificant a gesture as it is, feels like I should abstain from relationships both out of self-protection and protest until this changes, and wishes all men would be on board to force change. This society actively suppresses the open secret of toxic women and just how life-ruining they can be, and goes out of its way to give them power... increasingly even normalizes and glorifies toxic traits in women. And it makes me pretty fucking mad. I will openly admit, I am very bitter about it.

I wish I had an answer. We live in supremely fucked up times. I'm very disillusioned with the state of most of the world in general. I loathe the state of politics in the USA with every fiber of my being. And my life goal currently is to leave it all behind and move to Japan.

And yeah... it sucks... because I think having a romantic partner, for most people, is a fundamental need. Evidence points also to it being an even more fundamental need for men than for women. Women seem to be able to get something more from friendships than we do, and I don't think that's because of toxic masculinity, and it's not about sex. It simply pains the soul to go for years without someone next to you at night. Going on 10 years now for myself (my ex and I were separate bedrooms for at least 5 years before the split). And it's really sad how this is the common reality for a majority of men these days.

Regardless of whether one pursues dating or not, I think it's best to focus on finding fulfillment in life in other ways. I would say this even if things weren't like they are. It's not healthy to orient the entirety of your well-being around an external factor beyond our control. But I say that knowing full well that the lack of a partner will always leave a void, and that pain is absolutely not to be marginalized.

Edit: Ok here's the two short, actionable things I'll say after all that philosophizing: Start recording the moment red flags show up, and please for the love of god be very intentional and careful about who you choose to have kids with.

[–]Local-Willingness784 3 points4 points5 points 9 months ago (2 children) | Copy Link

Good context on your relationship, i dont think i was exactly demonising your ex or women in general or that i impled that you were doing that but wheter she was a victim or a villain i genuinely cant get past the absolute lack of accountability that women get compared to the hyperagency men get, that has to do more with the stuff that i know and have seen but its neither here nor there.

and i don't know about that part about women getting more out of friendships compared to the "need" men have to get a romantic relationship when the difference in difficulty for getting sex or romance for men and women is so big, women dont complain about something that they have no difficulty in getting so i dont think its something psychologically innate or something that women have as some people could imply, but more of the way society has been for a while, but ill take your last pharagraph to some people who probably need it, tho i dont know how to translate all that about kids and recording abuse to guys who cant get a date, as its just really hard to get across these type of experiences if you havent been in similar situations or know how they are....

[–]SpicyMarshmellow 1 point2 points3 points 9 months ago (1 child) | Copy Link

i dont think i was exactly demonising your ex or women in general or that i impled that you were doing that but wheter she was a victim

I didn't think you were. But it is a common reaction to these sorts of stories.

i genuinely cant get past the absolute lack of accountability that women get compared to the hyperagency men get

I 100% agree. I just want society to be consistent. If we're going to be forgiving or damning, let's not be selective about it. But the majority of people will twist themselves in knots to find women forgivable for the worst behaviors, and then twist themselves in knots to argue that men aren't deserving of the same forgiveness, even if they have double the extenuating circumstances and their behaviors were half as bad. I'd rather we live in a society that's forgiving, and individual people are going to approach things differently, but I'd at least like individuals to be consistent with themselves, which is rarely the case. Most people I've ever known will hear a story like my ex's and go "I hope she gets the help she needs", but then hear a similar story about a man and go "Fuck that guy, no excuses!" Which clearly shows a deeply rooted belief that men are less deserving of empathy.

How can men not face a loneliness crisis, when that's the way the world sees them. Having to live in a world where you know that most people are looking for an excuse to hate you because of how you were born has an impact that friends or romantic partners can mitigate but not erase.

[–]SpicyMarshmellow 2 points3 points4 points 9 months ago (0 children) | Copy Link

women dont complain about something that they have no difficulty in getting

Very true. That is something I consider, and what I said isn't something I can back up. It's just an impression.

tho i dont know how to translate all that about kids and recording abuse to guys who cant get a date, as its just really hard to get across these type of experiences if you havent been in similar situations or know how they are....

I know... it's difficult to get across to anyone who hasn't witnessed or been through something like it first hand. I don't think most people really understand how fucked up a person can be and the impact they can have on someone else's life, until they've encountered a fucked up person themselves. Like the movie Mommie Dearest is regarded today as a cult classic comedy, because most think scenes like this are comically over-acted (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cZEYYF6PpEg). But I've been through nights like that with my ex, where she snapped to such an extreme over such petty things. The most ridiculous being one night when she shrieked at me even more shrill than the "No wire hangers!" line because I applied an alcohol wipe to our son's skin with a side-to-side motion when the box said to do circular, and then went in the bathroom looking for q-tips and threw things on the bathroom counter around because they weren't where she swore she left them and accused me of moving them just to fuck with her. I don't wish that experience on anybody. Yet people don't usually grasp that people like this are real until they find themselves alone with one behind closed doors, which is where those behaviors emerge. Someone like that holding your life in their hands is so much worse than any amount of loneliness.

Sorry my answers to your question aren't very useful.

[–]House-of-Raven 21 points22 points23 points 10 months ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]Local-Willingness784 2 points3 points4 points 9 months ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]MelissaMirantileft-wing male advocate 49 points50 points51 points 10 months ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]Razorbladekandyfan 0 points1 point2 points 9 months ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]Eric_The_Jewish_Bear1 point 10 months ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Comments