Question from a Muslim guy....

kami232 · 2014-01-08T03:19:51+00:00

No.

My understanding of Islam teaches that women are sacred and should be protected and cared for; their maidenhood is a part of that sanctity. This is similar to the Catholic view on a woman's virginity, and women are encouraged to dress well and to be good virgins until after marriage in the Catholic Church. For the record I'm a Catholic, but every practicing Muslim woman I've met in the States is well educated and modest. They don't strike me as oppressed victims, because they aren't - If maintaining standards as a part of your faith's beliefs is oppressive, then fuck me because I'm apparently oppressive for loving my neighbor (as an example - also /sarcasm).

Now, if you want to talk about true oppression in the [Muslim] world... then I would turn everybody's attention to the Taliban's methods of keeping people in check; Shabana Basij-Rasikh would probably scoff at the notion that American women - Muslim or otherwise - are oppressed, because her story tells all people what real oppression is (having the Taliban and extremists threaten your life and your family's lives all because you want an education). And even then, the notion that the entire Muslim world is like the Taliban is insane, and to suggest such is equivalent to a Straw Man attack.

Regarding the people who call you a Misogynist because you are a Muslim... I would ignore them. They're doing an ad hominem attack because they want to shut you down and make you feel guilty about your beliefs. It's the notion that all members of the Muslim faith oppress women, and they want you to prove to them that you are not oppressive, which would require you to beg for their faith in your honesty. So ignore them, because a person willing to attack your character whether or not they know you does not deserve the time of day.

zyk0s · 2014-01-08T03:08:34+00:00

Yes, you're a misoginist, yes you've comitted a thoughtcrime and you should be barred from ever speaking again.

But once you realize that, you can also consider there's a whole world outside political correctness and the teachings of the "equal at all costs" ideology. You can start asking why and for what purpose did the women in your culture covered their bodies more (hint: start with warm climate, impulsive, honor-based societies, war and the resulting gender imbalance). You should also ask yourself where you derive your pride from, especially your male and cultural pride. Who your role models are, and why you want to be like them. I have a feeling that, by the end of it, you won't even care whether some people think you are a misogynist.

friedrice65 · 2014-01-08T05:02:28+00:00

No, it's not misogynist. It's very sexist, but it's in no way implicitly hateful.

Capitalsman · 2014-01-08T06:46:38+00:00

I honestly think muslim women wearing those cloths is some what like a christian nun wearing her habbit or however it's spelled. It's part of their religion but instead of women who specifically choose to worship their god it is every woman. I forget where I heard it but someone said muslim women wearing the burkas is like wearing those reflective vests construction workers wear, they instantly stand out in a crowd and because of it are less likely to be harmed/killed in a non explosive attack(ie snipers shooting). And if it truely does protect women in that manner from extremists then I'd even endorse it myself.

Before my eyes were opened however I used to they were misogynist since women only had to wear them, but when I learned more and more about muslim culture and hearing women say they love it because they aren't being oogled at all day it made more sense to me and now I think differently.

oneiorosgrip · 2014-01-08T05:04:56+00:00

People define what is misogyny based on their own personal sensibilities and prejudices.
http://thesocietypages.org/socimages/files/2008/12/1.png

aussietoads · 2014-01-08T07:16:49+00:00

They are calling you a misogynist as a broad means of shaming you and disrespecting your religion. Ignore them.

I'm an atheist BTW, but I respect other peoples right to their live by their religion, just as they should respect my right to abstain from it.

superwombat · 2014-01-08T12:37:22+00:00

"women are required to be clothed more"

This is the problem for me. It shows that in that culture, women are considered a lesser being. Something that can be commanded to behave as men desire. That pretty much looks like cut and dried misogyny to me.

An example of a non-misogynistic approach to the same issue would be a statement like. "In my society, women tend to choose to dress more modestly." That would imply that they are doing it because they want to, and because of social mores, not because they are being forced to.

I'm a big proponent of mens rights, but I'm also an even bigger proponent of human rights. This is clearly a violation of basic freedoms based only on gender. It makes me mad when it happens to men in America, and it makes me mad when it happens to women in other countries.

FloranHunter · 2014-01-08T07:42:22+00:00

Misogyny is the hatred of women. There are very few misogynists in the world. Even places that actually oppress women sport very little misogyny.

Sexism, however, is rampant. Against both sexes in different ways.

accidental_me · 2014-01-08T07:48:22+00:00

Less than a century ago the dress code in the west was about as strict as in the Muslim culture. For example, still in the fifties it was in many places improper for a gentleman or lady to appear in public without covering the head. Then in the sixties and seventies you started to see bare or almost bare breasted women in public. What happened?

If we leave god out of the equation, it's a question of traditional vs. modern culture.

In a traditional culture dressing is "ritualistic" repeating the same old traditions found, for example, in the holy scriptures. It's believed that rituals hold the society together.

The modern or perhaps postmodern abandons tradition as the sole guiding norm. The society becomes less ritualistic. This leads necessarily to acceptance of more diversity. One sign of diversity is that the normative dress code allows much more freedom.

Traditional dress codes are manifestations of (even ancient) power relations much more than modern dress codes or even the lack of them. In this light the question that remains is whether you regard those power relations as misogynist or not.

I'm inclined to do so (although I understand that this is not the whole truth).

2014-01-08T09:39:59+00:00

Yes, it appears misogynist to me.

rightsbot · 2014-01-08T02:54:17+00:00

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giegerwasright · 2014-01-08T06:19:56+00:00

Well. It's both complicated and simple at the same time.

Islam is a patriarchal religion. The society that it envisions and posits as an ideal is one where men have the majority of the power and as long as the women behave, they are allowed by that patriarchy to maintain some amount of autonomy. It does not treat women equally. It does not advocate for equal rights and responsibilities for men and women. Not a mote of it. Not a jot nor an iota. All this "spiritually equal" malarky is just that. It's malarky. Spiritually equal is absolutely meaningless unless you can get god to make an appearance in this meeting. And you can't. So you're making shit up. Or repeating shit that other people made up.

I personally have zero interest in living in a society shaped by Islam. Zero. Zilch. None. That doesn't mean that I don't recognize contributions of Muslims and Islam to the world. I do. We can talk about the scientific advances of the Ottoman world any time. But tied to anything positive in Islam are the negatives and you can't escape them. Religion isn't a Dim Sum restaurant where you can pick and choose. It just doesn't work that way. Religion is multigenerational memetic crowd control for the painfully stupid and easily manipulated. Islam developed in a medieval world of desperation and constant warfare. One where resources were constantly competed for and among those resources was reproductive capacity. One could argue that by necessity, Islam developed to treat women as a commodity even if it was one that could deliver a line of dialogue here and there.

But here's the thing. MRAs believe in freedom of religion. I know that I do. If I could, I'd remove all religion from the world tomorrow. But only if everyone simultaneously chose to give it up of their own volition. Otherwise, they're just going to go for the next old book that crosses their desk. It won't work. I think that it is every person's right to practice any religion that they choose (no, Scientology is not a religion), as long as their practice does not interfere with those who do not consent to it. So, if you want to pursue a muslim way of life, good for you. So long as you do not force others to participate. I think you're holding back the progress of the entire human race, but forcing you do to otherwise would hold back that progress just as much. So. Have at it.

Is Islam misogynist? Yes. Yes it is. It's patriarchal. It's chivalric. It treats women as if they are not capable of looking after themselves. It treats women as posessions. In the 1500s in Medina this may have worked. This may have even been necessary. It isn't anymore.

I don't think that you should necessarily be ashamed of yourself. Chances are that you were raised like most Catholics; your ideology was a truth to never be questioned. So you never questioned it. You have a noble savage view of your own mirror image. Should you change your ideal? Well. You should certainly parse it. Do you want civic and social equality for all men and women? Or do you just want it for those who are not among your faith, but those among your faith have to follow "seperate but equal, unless a male says otherwise" rules? You've got to parse your beliefs and see which ones contradict the others and then throw the weakest of them to the dogs.

The choice in how you live your life is your own, but you won't find me singing the virtues of Islam's effect on egalitarian culture because it just really isn't there.

everyone_hates_you_ · 2014-01-08T08:13:23+00:00

You don't wanna hear what I think of your religion.

That said in this case you're thinking is no more wrong than theirs.

/u/oneiorosgrip's linked pic illustrates what I mean.

AeneaLamia · 2014-01-08T13:32:33+00:00

I dont think its even very sexist.

Women choose to follow Islam of their own free will. Something someone has a choice in doing or not doing can hardly be sexist. No one forces them to obey these tenets. In situations where they are forced to be muslim that is of course a completely different matter.

If you want to say the 'rules' of Islam are inherently sexist against women youd have to say they are inherently sexist against men for a variety of other reasons as well.

But when people choose to be in that culture, who cares?

2014-01-08T14:10:03+00:00

i recently read about theoretical or practical, idk, rules about money and marriage for women. i had a positive opinion of the religious or cultural responsibilities.

chocoboat · 2014-01-08T14:45:08+00:00

It depends on how you define misogyny. Some people in here only define it as "outright hatred for women", and it is certainly not that.

But the most common definition for misogyny is "having less sympathy for women than for men". Islam blatantly treats women as inferiors and it seems clearly misogynistic to me. (So does Christianity, but somewhat fewer Christians obey the misogynistic rules.)

But is YOUR thinking misogynist? It depends on what you think about the rules. If you and your family members choose to follow Islamic dress codes, that's fine because everyone is doing what they choose to.

If you think other women should be forced into wearing Islamic clothing (as many are in the Middle East), that's misogynist. If you believe a woman who wears Western clothing and gets sexually assaulted deserved to have that happen to her because she didn't cover herself up, that's misogynist.

There is nothing wrong with wanting to follow the rules of your own religion, as long as it's done by choice and isn't harming anyone. For instance, the Amish wear traditional clothing that covers themselves... and no one complains, because they choose it for themselves. What people have a problem with is the Middle Eastern outlook where women are made to cover up, and are insulted or attacked if they don't.

Funcuz · 2014-01-08T16:34:50+00:00

You've just got to remember that right now it's de riguer to label everything misogyny despite there being absolutely nothing remotely misogynistic about it. I'm pretty sure that if a woman breaks a tooth on a piece of candy , it's somehow because of misogyny. They have no idea what the word even means but it's become fashionable to simply affix it to anything that reflects poorly on either women or any individual woman.

The_Patriarchy · 2014-01-08T16:49:19+00:00

I would like to get your opinion on the matter. Does such a thing appear misogynist to you?

From what I've seen, the more stringently people adhere to Islam, the more oppressive they appear to be towards women. The same can be said of Judaism and Christianity, however you don't really hear of either of those extremists stoning women to death for adultery or marrying very young girls. Whether it's fundamentally rooted in hatred for women, or not, is only relevant as a matter of semantics. In practice, the more "hasidic"/fundamentalist approach to Islam does seem to be pretty oppressive to women.

notnotnotfred · 2014-01-08T16:49:39+00:00

Plenty of Western cultures also expect women to be more covered than men, at least in terms of covering breasts / chests.

Islam has many factions, and I'm not an expert. I happen to be a (rather poor example of a...) catholic, and I can't even agree with other catholics on what precisely "catholic" means, so I'm definitely not in a position to tell you what your religion must mean.

xalasi · 2014-01-09T00:52:45+00:00

http://msmagazine.com/blog/2013/05/24/what-do-dress-codes-say-about-girls-bodies/

This is about young American girls, but the concepts in this article might be interesting to you

rg57 · 2014-01-09T03:33:05+00:00

"Does such a thing appear misogynist to you?"

The word I use is "sexist", and yes it is absolutely sexist.

Not only are the dress codes more restrictive on women, but the reasoning behind requiring "modesty" is that men will be simply forced to rape women not dressed in this way, because after all men have zero self control.

Any culture or system that describes men in this way, and treats women in this way, is sexist.

Yldraeth · 2014-01-09T11:32:43+00:00

You are looking at the discussion all wrong. To you it is simply a demand/rule/decision of your God. As such there is no moral question at hand. To the people you are talking to the Religion your following is not the word of God but a fabrication concocted by men in some age gone by designed to repress a society in general and women more specifically. People you are talking to (as far as i can read it atleast) believe in personal choice as the highest good (as long as it doesn't harm other etc etc). You on the other hand believe in God as the highest good. Within the frame of the people you talk to you are definately being misogynistic enforcing (if even only in idea) an ancient system designed to supress the free choice of women. Within your own frame this is different, you are simply repeating the word of your god. Now if you would be someone who would agress (i can't sufficiently specify this here) against women not going by the rules of your god you would again fall within the

PeterArching · 2014-01-09T19:27:57+00:00

Thou shalt have no Gods before Feminism.

petesaq · 2014-01-08T02:59:17+00:00

What attributes are different that would then need different rules for each gender?

petesaq · 2014-01-08T02:57:33+00:00

7hunderpants · 2014-01-08T03:13:00+00:00

Islam is an oppressive religion irrespective of gender.

FrankP3893 · 2014-01-08T03:17:52+00:00

You literally just admitted your close minded, nothing anyone can say will change your mind. Grow up

Title	Question from a Muslim guy....
Author	ThatWeirdMuslimGuy
Upvotes	11
Comments	76
Date	January 8, 2014 2:51 AM UTC (12 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/mensrights/comments/1uoguy/question-from-a-muslim-guy/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/question-from-a-muslim-guy.1613606 https://theredarchive.com/post/1613606

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