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Asking someone to stop sleeping around is rape culture. (xpost from /r/Tumblrinaction)

FrostytheSnowColt

March 18, 2014

263 upvotes

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Post Information

Title	Asking someone to stop sleeping around is rape culture. (xpost from /r/Tumblrinaction)
Author	FrostytheSnowColt
Upvotes	263
Comments	114
Date	March 18, 2014 3:59 PM UTC (12 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/mensrights/comments/20q5eq/asking-someone-to-stop-sleeping-around-is-rape-/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/asking-someone-to-stop-sleeping-around-is-rape.1615506 https://theredarchive.com/post/1615506

Comments

[–]kidion77 points 12 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]marzoopial31 points 12 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Pro-men's rights sentiment is inseparable from anti-feminist sentiment.

Feminism works to subjugate men, demonize men in order to justify their subjugation by skewing/lying about statistical evidence, and silence all dissenting opinion.

Feminist apologists or those who continue to justify their bigotry under the feminist guise of "equality" need to have their hateful ideology exposed.

Men's rights will amount to nothing as long as feminist institutionalized bigotry remains unchallenged.

Those who claim to value "equality" and in the same breath claim that feminism aligns with their values are at best naive and at worst dishonest.

Allowing this naivety or dishonesty to churn on unchecked is exactly what created the sorry state of affairs western men now find themselves in the midst of.

I welcome the anti-feminist sentiment on this forum. Not only does it provide a space where men can safely discuss the hypocrisy of modern feminism (something that many are unable to do in their daily lives due to the persecutory nature of feminist censorship), it also provides a venue for feminists who exist in an echo-chamber of anti-male sentiment to learn about the true outcomes of their hateful, self-serving ideology.

[–]larjew8 points 12 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]Suitecake1 point 12 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]marzoopial0 points 12 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]ashplowe1 point 12 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]Suitecake0 points 12 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]SlapMyCHOP0 points 12 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]marzoopial2 points 12 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

You're probably right. I guess after 14 months of being alienated from my 3 year old daughter because my child's mother decided to cut me out on a whim, I have become a bit angry.

I had my daughter 3-4 nights per week for almost a year, took her on two week-long trips on my own, and found fatherhood to be the most rewarding experience of my life, but my ex's attitude about me changed drastically during the 2nd semester of her Women's Studies bachelors degree.

Since I can't afford thousands of dollars for mediation, a lawyer retainer, a psych eval, supervised visitation service, and drug testing, I am unable to see my child.

I have no history of psychological issues or drug use, zero criminal history, never hit my child or her mother (or anyone), I have a stable job in web development at a university, maintain healthy relationships, pay my bills, taxes, and child support on time, but since my child's mother says I'm unfit, I get the bill for proving otherwise.

Funny. Before all this I considered myself a feminist. Who doesn't believe in equality, after all?

I can only blame myself for my situation - I shouldn't have believed my ex when she said she was taking her birth control, or trusted her to value our verbal agreement for equal parenting time. Now I am trying to decide what to do - should I save up the thousands of dollars it will take, then engage my ex in an emotionally and financially devastating legal battle? Should I save that money and give it to my daughter when she turns 18? Should I drown my sorrows in drugs and alcohol? Or just off myself? That's what a lot of men in my situation do.

I could just try to show up at my ex's house and force myself back into my daughter's life. How do you think that would go for me, thanks to laws like VAWA and the Duluth Model?

So I agree with you, SlapMYCHOP, I do sound radical. But when I hear feminists claim that they are doing something to help men in my situation, then read about them lobbying against equal parenting legislation, while simultaneously spending millions on a campaign to #banbossy, I don't feel that my radical rhetoric on feminism is unwarranted.

[–]SlapMyCHOP0 points 12 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Given your circumstances, I can kind of understand what that must be like. I cannot fully say I understand, because nobody can, I realize that about many people's plights. I also understand your justified disdain for feminist culture and the laws set in place. I wholeheartedly agree that feminists need to talk the talk AND walk the walk when it comes to men's rights if they claim they are helping. I do. I also have to look at it from the other side as well, it's just what I believe. To say that you oppose all feminist rhetoric is a slight bit naïve, but I get it due to where you're coming from. When thinking about these issues, I always consider myself and a daughter if I had one. How would I like a certain law or system if put in place based on how it would affect me, but also how it would affect my daughter? This is how I judge the legitimacy of feminist AND MR social movements. P.S I'm sorry the system failed you. It sucks. Good luck with your decision making and whatever you decide I wish you the best.

[–]marzoopial1 point 12 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Thanks for considering how feminism has effected my life and my daughter's.

I am fortunate in that I didn't marry my ex or I would be paying alimony as well and wouldn't be able to afford rent in a place I'd feel comfortable having my daughter (if I ever got to see her again).

I am also fortunate that my ex's only false claim (so far) is that I am an unfit parent. She could have claimed much worse and I'd be either in prison or fighting a court battle right now, no evidence required thanks to VAWA and the Duluth Model.

I believe it is your line of thinking that is naive - I have no idea what your background is or what your relation to feminism is, but I don't see how anyone who's looked objectively at the actions, speech, or outcomes of mainstream feminism for the last 40 years can consider it even remotely egalitarian, honest, or beneficial to anyone but big business (splitting one household into two means more consumerism and more employees) and the government (more tax income, booming family court industry, deeper reliance on Uncle Sam's handouts).

I don't believe rape culture exists. I don't believe there's a sinister patriarchy that works to suppress women. I don't believe that men are the cause of all women's problems. I have not seen any compelling evidence or studies that confirm these constructions of feminism. I think rape and sexism are problems, but I believe they are the actions of sociopaths and assholes - not the inherent nature of men or the result of some cultural attitude that accepts these shitty behaviors.

I think I have an accurate and clear perspective about how feminism effects men, children, and families in our society. I certainly know how it has effected me and mine. I also believe I am accurate as to how feminism has changed in the last 40 years from being a successful movement with a solid cause into a movement that achieved their cause and now survives by inventing problems to solve (#banbossy) in order to retain power gained through the demonization and subjugation of men.

I understand that some feminists are not misandrists. In my opinion these people are no better than Catholics who know their money will go to sheltering child molesters, but continue to tithe anyway. Their self-identification as feminists gives credibility to a movement that is lying to them and destroying countless lives.

[–]Suitecake3 points 12 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Pro-men's rights sentiment is inseparable from anti-feminist sentiment.

This sounds like bullshit.

Presumably, there are women's issues and men's issues. Feminism has worked on fixing a lot of women's issues, and is much farther along in its goal than the MRM is with fixing men's issues. Where feminism ends up harming the state of men in society, we should chirp up.

Accordingly, once MRM actually gets churning and starts fixing these issues, we should be open to criticism from other groups as well if we, unintentionally, end up harming the state of women in society.

I think it's considered outright absurd outside of /r/MensRights (and any number of other, smaller and/or extremist sub-reddits) to claim or imply that feminism is primarily an anti-male, fundamentally destructive ideology. It's shite like this that (for good reason) makes us a laughingstock.

We do ourselves a disservice to mirror the groundless vilification of MRM by an overzealous vocal minority.

[–]marzoopial2 points 12 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Blah blah blah, more hate speech and male subjugation apology.

Wake up. Feminism has done ZERO about "women's issues" since the 1970's when they achieved their stated goal of equal protection and opportunity under the law.

Since then, like all groups who've gained power, they have done whatever it takes to stay in power. To keep their power, feminists have focused on demonization of men, redistribution of men's earnings to women, censorship of dissenting opinion, and revenge against anyone who's dared to speak out against them.

People like you work to counteract the men's rights movement by rationalizing the actions of a hate group that aims to subjugate men. Your refusal to view feminism for their actions and insistence on buying into their doublespeak is hurting men.

Perhaps you personally haven't had a woman lie about birth control and force you into fatherhood and handing over 25%+ of your check for 18+ years...

Maybe you haven't been alienated from your children on the whim of a vengeful ex.

Maybe you haven't been arrested and charged with domestic violence with zero evidence thanks to the Duluth Model or VAWA.

Maybe you've never had your life destroyed and been railroaded by your community based on a false rape accusation.

Maybe you are one of the lucky men who doesn't feel so disenfranchised from society that you consider drugs, alcohol, or suicide as an escape.

Maybe you've managed to avoid a financially and emotionally devastating divorce where where your ex uses your money to hire a lawyer and arbitrate astronomical alimony payments.

Lucky you.

Unfortunately many of the men here (or men that we know) are not that lucky. For those of us who have been in these situations the outcomes of feminism are very clear.

[–]Suitecake0 points 12 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]Celtinarius1 point 12 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–][deleted]13 points 12 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]autowikibot2 points 12 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Feminist theory:

Feminist theory is the extension of feminism into theoretical or philosophical discourse. It aims to understand the nature of gender inequality. It examines women's social roles, experience, interests, and feminist politics in a variety of fields, such as anthropology and sociology, communication, psychoanalysis, economics, literature, education, and philosophy. While generally providing a critique of social relations, feminist theory starts with its assumption that women are subjugated in society and rejects value-free research in favor of an overt political agenda. Much of feminist theory also focuses on analyzing gender inequality. Themes explored in feminism include discrimination, objectification (especially sexual objectification), oppression, patriarchy, stereotyping, art history and contemporary art, and aesthetics.

====

Image i

Interesting: Feminist literary criticism | Feminist Theory (journal) | Feminist film theory | Postmodern feminism

Parent commenter can [toggle NSFW](http://www.np.reddit.com/message/compose?to=autowikibot&subject=AutoWikibot NSFW toggle&message=%2Btoggle-nsfw+cg5rwue) or [delete](http://www.np.reddit.com/message/compose?to=autowikibot&subject=AutoWikibot Deletion&message=%2Bdelete+cg5rwue). Will also delete on comment score of -1 or less. | FAQs | Mods | Magic Words

[–]kidion-2 points 12 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–][deleted]8 points 12 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]kidion-5 points 12 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–][deleted]8 points 12 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]Suitecake2 points 12 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]whinemoreplease2 points 12 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]Suitecake-1 point 12 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]whinemoreplease2 points 12 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

the difference between christians is that many christians are actively critical of what the Church organizations are doing. can the same be said of feminists? furthermore, the church is still readily acknowledge as the representatives of the religion. no catholic will ever says "catholicism isn't about that" in direct contradiction to the vatican.

It's a mistake to round up the actions of a zealous minority (such as the infamous University of Toronto protests) with feminism.

where is the large outcry against this extremist behavior then? where are the feminists organizations saying, "no, these extremists do not represent this movement". at the very least, there is tactic acceptance. i really don't give a fuck about what an individual commonplace feminist has to say because they have a limited ability to affect change.

edit: [a quick google doens't find a single thing] (https://www.google.com/search?q=feminists+denounce+toronto+extremists&oq=feminists+denounce+toronto+extremists&aqs=chrome..69i57.5979j0j7&sourceid=chrome&espv=210&es_sm=122&ie=UTF-8)

[–]Suitecake0 points 12 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

the difference between christians is that many christians are actively critical of what the Church organizations are doing.

And many Christians aren't. All the people I heard yelling about the Catholic Church's stance on contraception in HIV-infested Africa were non-Catholics.

I think the problem is simple: we (people) aren't very good at being critical of the institutions we identify with. There are some exceptions (it's very fashionable to be critical of America, as an American).

where is the large outcry against this extremist behavior then? where are the feminists organizations saying, "no, these extremists do not represent this movement". at the very least, there is tactic acceptance. i really don't give a fuck about what an individual commonplace feminist has to say because they have a limited ability to affect change.

They don't seem to know about it. Unsurprisingly, the protest isn't making the rounds in their 'feeds.' The only reason I know about it is because I frequent this sub-reddit. Presumably they don't.

[–]whinemoreplease1 point 12 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]Suitecake0 points 12 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]whinemoreplease1 point 12 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Google for christians denouncing WBC

It's because WBC is shunned. Christian organizations do shun WBC. (quick aside: many atheists are about as fervent as religious fanatics.) This is what it comes down to. There is tactic acceptance for feminist extremists. None exists for other groups of extremists. Please try to convince me that feminism as a movement does not approve of U of T's extremists in the same manner that Christianity does not approve of WBC. The U of T feminists are just as representative of feminism as your next door neighbor.

Actually, now that I think about it more. It's a lot more acceptable to be critical of WBC than it is feminism.

Furthermore your individual feminists doesn't matter in the context of the feminists movements. Movements are made of leaders, no individual peons. Here's a concise link to what feminist organizations are doing [link].

"The newsroom" did a great and concise analysis of why individual opinions don't matter when they assessed the Occupy Wall Street movement. [link] It comes down to organizations representing a movement can get things done.

I truly believe most feminists do want equality, but those voices aren't the ones championing the movement.

[–]Suitecake-1 point 12 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Please try to convince me that feminism as a movement does not approve of U of T's extremists in the same manner that Christianity does not approve of WBC. The U of T feminists are just as representative of feminism as your next door neighbor.

But Christianity does approve of the WBC insofar as WBC is a part of Christianity. We qualify it. The WBC is extremist. In the same way, I'd qualify the U of T protesters as extremist.

I agree that it's a lot more acceptable to criticize the WBC than feminism. The analogy very quickly breaks down here. Feminism is socially acceptable; the WBC is not.

Re: The Newsroom, this reflects, I think, a difference of opinion with respect to social change. I think raising awareness and changing individual minds is a more powerful mechanism than institutions with a lobbying budget. There are a dozen 'family' organizations that have been fighting against marriage equality for years, but they're losing. Why? Because we, as a society, have changed. Because people feel comfortable self-identifying as gay, or bisexual, and then other people come to know gay people and find out hey these people are actually just like me.

We can talk about Proposition 8 and all the out-of-state Mormon money, but that's just a historical footnote. The real drive for marriage equality is the shift in public opinion.

That's where you and I differ, I think. I'm more interested in conversations with people, whereas you're more interested in institutions. That isn't a bad thing.

[–]whinemoreplease1 point 12 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]Suitecake0 points 12 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

I'd call 'mainstream feminism' the feminism of the people I actually bump into. IE, intellectually-minded young people (20-30). People who aren't employed in academia, and weren't picketing at U of T.

Mainstream feminism is looking to critique and correct injustices that women experience because they are women. Frequent subjects are the objectification of women, societal attitudes toward rape, and discrimination against women in the workplace. Some of the more internationally-minded feminists focus on access to education for women in developing countries.

As point of fact, I think objectification of women is overblown, societal attitudes toward rape aren't as bad as is claimed, and workplace discrimination against women tends to be anecdotal and not-very-convincing. But these are disagreements about the facts. If it were true that objectification of women, societal attitudes toward rape and workplace discrimination against women were all as bad as they say, then I would agree that they should be resolved.

The core is equality, and while we may disagree on how to get there, we agree that it should be achieved. Pragmatically, that common ground is more than large enough to get shit done in tandem. But common ground doesn't tend to spark much zeal, and people on both sides get far more worked up over pseudo-theological differences (such as 'patriarchy theory').

[–]lenspirate-1 point 12 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

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[–]memetherapy8 points 12 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

I'd said it before and I'll say it again. Don't fall for this dishonest roundabout way of criticizing the men's rights movement. Feminism, or at least the way the word is being used to stifle conversation about men's issues, is a necessary part of the story. The people who encourage and effectively promote misandry do so under the banner of equal rights and feminism. Feel free to view these terrible examples as non-feminist...but then can we talk about how people who aren't truly feminists use the label as a dishonest way of swaying the masses?

It's not our fault feminists haven't kept their own in check. The burden is on them, not on us.

It's similar to the atheist movement... it had a definite cause: to promote acceptance of atheists in the public sphere and to encourage honest constructive conversation about religions and their impact. But unlike the feminist movement, it dealt and is still actively dealing with people who promote other ideals under the same banner. Atheism + tried using atheism to promote radical liberalism, anti-conservatism and basically misandry... and some of the head figures of the movement and its underlying demographics argued over the 'hijacking'... and now there is a clear division and the Atheist movement has at least maintained some semblance of coherence and intellectual honesty. Until feminists outright denounce absurd notions like "rape culture", "the patriarchy" and "the wage gap"... or at least make these issues debatable within the feminist sphere, they should be held accountable for the radical misandrists running around labeling themselves feminists.

[–]Goat-headed-boy7 points 12 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

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[–]FallingSnowAngel4 points 12 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]knowless2 points 12 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

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[–]knowless2 points 12 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]FallingSnowAngel0 points 12 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

In other words, you have faith there is a tide of false accusations, and men believe them because of feminist brainwashing poison.

I guess that's technically better than calling them succubi and witches.

4 active seduction/regret used to destroy a man,

You don't believe in marital rape or intimate partner rape.

tough on crime

If you so believe almost all rapists are innocent and all accusers guilty, that you're willing to completely throw away innocent until proven guilty.

But that one's officially changed, at least.

And that's what scares you.

You measure every advance for women only in terms of which men may or may not be hurt by it.

You see a war between the sexes, the same as the Klan sees one between the races.

If you believe that women should be free from assault, and that they are prone to it, then maybe they should side with the common man who would be sympathetic?

You're the group most men can't stand...

And it's not because you speak truth to power.

It's because most of you really don't really give a shit about men's rights. Otherwise, you'd know which groups are already lobbying for safer workplaces, less prison time, and helping vulnerable men.

You simply use it as an excuse to attack feminism. And even then, you can't even tell the difference between a gender traditionalist politician exploiting women's issues for votes, and The Lesbian Mafia vs. all those NAFALTs you guys keep attacking so they can't wreck your fun.

Why not challenge them to do something for men, instead of downvoting them whenever they try?

Seriously, at least pretend like you're an actual human rights movement.

[–]knowless2 points 12 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

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[–]Bartab1 point 12 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

It's arguing that the standard for proof to convict should be minor alterations to the law elsewhere.

The standard for proof to convict is the same for every crime. The so called "minor alterations" you propose of "guilty unless proving the accuser a liar" are not in fact minor.

Much more popular than his proposed alterations.

You're the only one suggesting alterations. Recognizing that there exists a reasonable doubt in the face of evidence not being allowed to be brought up is working within the existing ruleset.

(Aka, the only active organized group of women on the internet who actually meet your definition of feminist.)

Actually, my "definition" of feminist is the NOW organization, as I'm only personally concerned with those groups lobbying for the force of the State to be brought against others.

[–]FallingSnowAngel1 point 12 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]Bartab1 point 12 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

If, in the face of overwhelming evidence, you still have doubts, you probably aren't very reasonable.

For evidence to be overwhelming, evidence to dispute it must not be banned from being presented. Otherwise, it's not overwhelming.

The victims prior sexual history isn't evidence of innocence.

Evidence of innocence is not necessary.

Just curious, by the way - are you one of those who claims that Elevatorgate was purely innocent?

"Elevatorgate" where some guy asked Watson to his hotel room for coffee, she refused, and days later started complaining about it, was and is purely innocent.

Because if it wasn't sexual at all to ask to be invited to her room at 3-4am, a similar invitation shouldn't be evidence used to acquit someone accused of rape, should it?

Again, proof of innocence is not necessary. Why is this so difficult to grasp?

[–]FallingSnowAngel1 point 12 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

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Your lack of empathy keeps revealing itself.

Not true at all. I emphasize with those people improperly imprisoned for years of their life, and wholeheartedly agree with the two hundred fifty year old maxim about letting 10 guilty to go free instead of jailing one innocent.

I was molested. I was tortured. I was raped. I'm not interested in setting aside all evidence in a rape trial just because your diseased paranoia thinks every case is automatically created equal.

You still fail to grasp the concept of "reasonable doubt". All cases being equal is not a requirement.

The fact that the cases you linked me to were overturned is evidence that what happened isn't the way the law is normally applied.

This is an "I can't see it so it doesn't exist" statement, as you're ignoring all the cases that have similar situations without the financial wherewithal to pursue appeals.

The fact that people spend years in prison is proof that the law is being improperly applied, and that creates reasonable doubt.

Perhaps prosecutors need to be warned to dismiss MRAs from jury duty? You've more than demonstrated prejudice...

So have you, demanding that proof of lying is a requirement for a not guilty verdict. The difference is, what you demand goes against the entire legal system.

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mens rights and feminism are not two sides of the same coin. one is a equality movement (equal as in more good stuff not accountability) and the other is a human rights movement.

feminism came about because some women rejected the role women are boxed into but they dont care about the role men are boxed into. feminists just want the goodies men get but not the bad stuff they deal with.

mens rights came about because men were boxed into a role, then shamed for not being perfect, getting more boxed in, shamed for stuff that isn't even their fault leading many human rights violations against men, unfair treatment the likes women have never had to endure. thus there has to be a movement to help men, men need help to fight against a society that has gone mad with misandry.

what other word you want me to use to define the actions of "most" feminists over 100 years, that being push for equal benefits not equal responsibility which is not equal rights. which has led to a very unbalanced, unfair society for men, children and many women as well.

i want to point out that mens rights needs to stay anti feminist anti woman. because feminism cares about women as much as nazi's cared about germans. the feminist ideology is not pro woman or should i say responsible and honorable woman.

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[–]ashplowe2 points 12 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]StoicSophist1 point 12 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]songofrebellion6 points 12 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]rattamahatta6 points 12 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]DiCor2 points 12 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]circuitology5 points 12 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]armadillo_armageddon0 points 12 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]stools-1 point 12 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link