Text to go to counseling

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February 26, 2018

I have been at this for nearly a year. So, I am pretty sure I already know what the answer will be from the group here since I have followed this subreddit pretty closely. I have received really good advice here throughout the last 12 months. But, when it is happening to you I think it is always good to take a step back and make sure I don't have tunnel vision here as I am no expert and there are others here who have navigated these waters before. So, I am looking for guidance and suggestions.

TLDR; Wife sent a text saying she would like to go to couples counseling this morning


Married 14 years with 4 kids. 6'0" 175lbs 12.5% BF. Muscle increasing steadily as I started from 150lbs three years ago being skinny fat. Still smaller than I would like, but enough to look good when out and about and I do get interest. I have started talking and flirting with women, but I have not yet gone into catch and release.

I found the red pill almost exactly one year ago. Wife had always had a lower sex drive than me, but drip fed me enough sex thru my blue pill days that even though I was frustrated I didn't do anything to rock the boat. My low point was probably after our fourth child was born three years ago and she was breast feeding. Sex was so non-existent that I had three wet dreams as a grown ass man. I am a career beta.


Almost two years ago, the wife told me that she wanted another child. I am done having more. I love our four kids, but I am not having any more as my hands are full. Each pregnancy she goes into pre-term labor and subsquently bedrest for about 4-5 months. As captain of the ship, taking care of everything falls onto my lap. It is a sacrifice that I have made for four kids already, but I am unwilling to do it a fifth time. I handled much of her request poorly for the better part of a year and kept going back and forth with dead-end conversations. She increasingly grew in frustration and resentment towards me. I mean, why wasn't her dutiful sperm-donor servant boy suddenly not cooperating.

Each month the situation that was at a standstill would worsen and even though she was applying pressure I still felt that five was too many and stood my ground albeit with weak ass frame. Then, my wife avoided kissing me and I started realizing that it had been months since she had uttered an unsolicited "I love you". Googled and somehow stumbled across this subreddit and the sidebar.

At that point, it all made sense. My failures and ways I had tried to get my way before were 100% wrong. I was wrong. I inhaled the sidebar and I have been through these books and many other red pill books. Finally, I grew enough balls to have a sit down with the wife in March of last year and with as much frame as I had at that time told her that child number five wasn't going to happen. Snot bubbles, crying, etc.

Continued on my MAP, reading the sidebar, and coming here soaking in everything that I could. I started going to the gym rather than working out at home. I have completely reworked my wardrobe and I wear form fitting clothes that fit properly and that I look good in. I get my haircut every 2-3 weeks now. I always smell good and look good throughout the whole day.

I started working on SGM. I was soooooo passive in the bedroom before. I started ramping up the dominance slightly, but consistently. I had never received a blow job ever in the first 13 years of marriage. Though the number is still unimpressive, I have received two in the last few months which is progress. I have introduced sex toys, light hair pulling, light spanking, and many other things that have been received well. I know I am no sex god, but there has been improvement considering where I have come.

Wife was a tyrant at home with the kids prior to this. I would sheepishly allow her to go on her tirades afraid to rock the boat. The house walked on eggshells around her. I am proud to say that these tirades have stopped and I have control of the home from this aspect now. That dirty work mostly occurred during the first 6 months of MRP and I have had to do some, but very little in this respect the last 6 months. She has become a much kinder mother and doesn't seem to spiral out of control like she did before at times.

Overall, I am personally much healthier and happier. I feel liberated from the nice guy tendencies I have always had. I feel more in control of my life and my own happiness. So, as I have improved, I have felt much much better. I never would go out with guy friends. I know get out at least once a week or so. I go shooting. I play basketball. I golf now. These were all things that I had given up to be the good little boy and lap dog that would cater to my wife.

My wife has actually made some improvements as well. She started seeing a doctor and discovered that she has hashimotos which is an autoimmune disorder in which antibodies attack her thyroid. She has completely changed her diet and gone gluten and diary free. She has started excercising and is overall more healthy. Sex in the last 11 months has been overall higher than what we typically had in the prior years of marriage. Her previous cycle we had honestly as much sex as I could handle. Between working out and the sex we were having I was spent.

Current Situation

Then she crashed about 4 weeks ago. She became depressed, moody, and completely uninterested in sex. I honestly probably failed the comfort tests here, but I have grown tired of these over the years. Though she is at least kissing me still, it feels almost as if we are back where we started. In the next couple of days, it will be about 4 weeks since the last time we had sex. I haven't initiated either. I haven't had a desire to with her like this.

About 3 or 4 days ago, she talked to me before bed. Snot bubbles again and that she feels invisible. She was offended that I went and played basketball the prior week when she was struggling and having a hard day. I did my best to STFU, but also tried to provide her with comfort. I think she wanted me to give up basketball though she never directly stated it which I never gave her any indication that I would (we only have one more week in the season anyways). I don't think I handled this well as usually after a successful comfort test she will just kind of melt into my arms. That didn't happen last time. I also, knowing that she has never fully let go of the idea of one more child (she believes God told her this was going to happen), so I brought this up again and reminded her of my position. She kept talking and I mostly STFU to let her get her emotions out. Despite my firmness, she has always taken the approach that somehow, someway, that if she has faith that there will be a fifth child. So, it is clear she has never let it go and I question if she ever will. I think the comfort test about basketball really wasn't about basketball.

So, as we were laying there with her on my chest sobbing, I say "How long do you think we can keep going like this?" I have never insinuated that divorce was on option and I know that it should never be brought up until you are sure that is where you are headed. But, I believe my rhetorical question was clear that if she kept this shit show up we weren't going to be together much longer and that it was an inevitibility. As soon as the words finished leaving my mouth, the snot bubbles and sniffles stopped immediately and she got really quiet. Interesting how quickly she was able to shut the water works off.


To me, it feels like we are nearing a main event which seems right on schedule if I have correctly followed MRP. I feel I simply need to hold my ground here. I think she also senses that her control is slipping. I believe this is where the marriage counseling is coming into play. I think she is also trying to figure out a way to get another kid.

If you managed to make it through that wall of text, and now knowing my background, if you were in my shoes and received a text about going to counseling how would you respond? My initial reply will likely be "We'll talk later". I'm not doing that over text. So, I guess I am asking beyond that what would you do?

Thanks guys

Post Information
Title Text to go to counseling
Author justpickanyusername
Upvotes 9
Comments 49
Date 26 February 2018 05:50 PM UTC (3 years ago)
Subreddit askMRP
Link https://theredarchive.com/post/204769
Original Link https://old.reddit.com/r/askMRP/comments/80ex8g/text_to_go_to_counseling/
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Red Pill terms found in post:
MAPbetaframecomfort testdominancethe red pill

[–]tacko2765 points6 points  (3 children) | Copy

Don’t do it! I have advanced degrees in counseling and I can tell you as a professional, it’s a joke. Also went through it with my wife. So, Personally I think it’s a joke. Instead, read “kill all marriage counselors” by Lora Doyle together. But fuck it I’m currently loading my guns for divorce so what do I know Good luck bro!

[–]justpickanyusernameRed Beret[S] 1 point2 points  (2 children) | Copy

I've actually read that book about 6 months ago. Well, I read "The Empowered Wife" which is apparently a newer revised version of that book with a new title. I wanted to know what was in it if I ever recommended it. I never gave it to my wife.

It may be time to recommend it.

[–]SBIIIRed Fucking Commando1 point2 points  (1 child) | Copy

I bought that book too. The advice here was "don't do it" and that came from a poster who had given it to his wife.

I can see how this book could help a woman - it reminds me a bit of Athol Kay's work.. improve yourself and you'll be desired etc. But I can also see that giving a book like this to your wife would probably come across as a massive covert contract... "read this, improve yourself and suck my dick".

It would be akin to introducing a friend to MRP - they may want / need the help - but really, unless they go seeking it themselves, it probably won't work. You can lead a horse to water...

[–]Reach180Red Beret0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

Exactly right.

[–]ReddJiveRed Beret5 points6 points  (9 children) | Copy

A lot going on here.

Don't answer on text. That's basic but the answer is no or some facsimile there of. You know this. Even read /u/redpillcoach recent post on counseling.

Yes you're wife is loosing control. Al normal. Still it's your call if you want to keep her. To me this is where it sounds like you are. she's still in the game so to speak. So all of these things are variations of a comfort test. All about her and how she feels. Also consider how fast your dread has increased. While it's generally known that she is behind you as she works to catch up how far have you exceeded her in this regard? The message that is being sent is that she isn't good enough. Therefore she doesn't work as hard and gives up. Where have you lead her in this or do you expect her to just figure it out? Only you know.

This issue of another kid. It needs to be discussed and ended definitively. From my own experience she's written the grand mal of female convert contracts. It will build a resentment like you can't believe unless you definitively deal with it. her statement about God ordaining it is her trying to manipulate you into it.

[–]justpickanyusernameRed Beret[S] 1 point2 points  (8 children) | Copy

Also consider how fast your dread has increased. While it's generally known that she is behind you as she works to catch up how far have you exceeded her in this regard?

I'm not sure if I have ever really though of it that way. I think I have just been focused on self-improvement and raising my SMV that I haven't really adjusted it to her at all. Since I haven't done catch and release, it is really hard to truly gauge where you are at. I might just be a poser and look good, but have zero game.

The message that is being sent is that she isn't good enough. Therefore she doesn't work as hard and gives up. Where have you lead her in this or do you expect her to just figure it out?

There could be some truth to that. Some more background, in that talk 3-4 days ago she mentioned that she decided that this year she was really going to work on our marriage and even said she tried having more sex. She made a comment that she tried for a few weeks and it didn't make any difference (I believe referring to the level of comfort I was providing). I think my autism may be manifesting itself here. I have really avoided overtly asking for sex or stating that to her as I feel it demonstrates some weakness and gives her too much control back. I was trying to lead primarily by actions as I feel that gets close to negotiations when I start blabbing about my male needs. I will fully admit that the hamster is likely lost in the maze and I have failed to lead her out properly. I think I may her looking for an exit at this point and I may need to spell out how that will look. It may have started chewing on the wall.

[–]ReddJiveRed Beret2 points3 points  (2 children) | Copy

We like to say that women get this. I've come to learn that they do at a lizard brain level but they aren't aware of it. Once things become real he worse fears are realized. Unless she has had role models in her life that have given her a sex positive attitude, showed her what a strong woman looks like, she's hung up on what society says.

She is a sex object. That's what she provides. Of course in a relationship women provide more then that but sex is their primary purpose to you. So show her she can suck your dick like life itself and still be a fantastic mom and someone you want to generally be around.

enter the need for comfort. You aren't going to fuck her and leave her pregnant in the middle of the woods. Her lizard brain is freaking out.

So consider that when you start babbling about your needs it's just as offensive to her when she starts in on "counseling", "where is our marriage going", "what do I mean to you".

I might just be a poser and look good, but have zero game.

I am not telling you to cheat. It sounds like your wife is pretty much into you. You just have to stop be autistic in her covert signals. Yet you need to develop your game. Your lacking here which is why you are getting lack luster results.

[–]justpickanyusernameRed Beret[S] 1 point2 points  (1 child) | Copy

It sounds like your wife is pretty much into you.

I question that quite often. She and I were both virgins, so there never was Chad's cock inside of her. But, there were other guys that she dated that may have provided more "tingles" than I. So, even if she never rode the CC she may have settled on me as more of a beta provider than ever an alpha since I fit the longer-term strategy she had for a family.

I think her behavior typically reflects that I am a sperm donor, plow horse, and a paycheck not an alpha (though this has slightly improved). She has stated that all she has ever wanted was to be a mom. I honestly have no problem with this. It actually fits in with biologically what women do and it is natural in my opinion, but it makes me wonder that I am solely a provider in her eyes and provide very few tingles despite increasing my SMV.

I do have in the back of my mind that the hashimotos may be playing a larger role than I am thinking. I just don't want it ever to become a crutch for her to stop trying and putting in effort, so I typically look past it. She may go on some progesterone treatments to alleviate some symptoms here. The reality, which I will likely never fully know, is that I may be fighting some up and down hormonal shifts here. In a woman, feels are their reality and hormones a feels.

[–]CaliEd2560 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

If she works hard to please you sexually, sing her praises for it. Reward the behavior you desire from her with positive reinforcement and attention. She’s the biggest child in the house.

[–]dcapt460 points1 point  (2 children) | Copy

I think my autism may be manifesting itself here. I have really avoided overtly asking for sex or stating that to her as I feel it demonstrates some weakness and gives her too much control back. I was trying to lead primarily by actions as I feel that gets close to negotiations when I start blabbing about my male needs.

Are you at a point where you need to be able to differentiate between her shit tests (Fighting you for control) and her comfort tests. When you had the extended duration of increased sex did you cuddle/comfort/reward?

[–]justpickanyusernameRed Beret[S] 0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy

I think I did fail here. I typically do cuddle, but I didn't go above and beyond to provide comfort or reward her. If I were going to associate her action of increased sex with increased comfort I dropped the ball here.

I bet I will probably have another crack at it, but I won't get many more mulligans. Assuming I get another period of increased sex I will need to make sure I make that positive association for her. I may need to flip thru MMSLP again regarding this.

[–]dcapt460 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

another crack at it, but I won't get many more mulligans. Assuming

Good resource but also this is not rocket science. Mostly it is immediate after you are done. Stay there, hold her, ILY, say nice things about her - particularly things like "you make me feel - (warm, good, etc", nuzzle. Talk about plans for the future (up coming trips, adventures, activities to do together).

Crap that is all that comes to mind. Check out MMSLP and SGM I think it had some too.

[–]FlyingSexistPig0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy

When you say your "autism", I'm guessing that you are on the spectrum, that you have Asperger's. Drop the mindset that this is somehow a liability. It isn't. It's an asset for you to use to improve your life.

Don't ask for sex. It's not something that she gives you. It's something that you give her. You mentioned sex god method. Good. Keep going down that route. Next time you want to initiate, just tell her calmly, "I need to talk to you in our bedroom. Go up there now. I'll be up in a minute." Then, in a minute or two, go to your bedroom and initiate. Don't say another word.

[–]justpickanyusernameRed Beret[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy

Regarding autism or any form of Asperger's. It wasn't to be taken literally. Just my tendency to go full retard from time to time.

[–]izual1910 points11 points  (8 children) | Copy

Get a vasectomy and keep it to to yourself. Proceed to enjoy the baby making. You are welcome.

[–]askmeanything24 points5 points  (2 children) | Copy

even if you get a vasectomy, wives get pregnant

I don't know how they do it

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

Something something Chad

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

Gee. I wonder how THAT could be. (cough CHAD cough)

[–]black_jack_davy-4 points-3 points  (4 children) | Copy

Vasectomies scar. It'd be hard to hide this from an LTR or wife of many years.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (1 child) | Copy

I can't even find my scar.

[–]RedPill-BlackLotusRed Beret0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

Let me check

[–]ice_walkerHead Negotiator1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy

Small scar, barely visible. Heals completely in a week, could easily have done the whole procedure covertly if I'd wanted to.

[–]CaliEd2560 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

Negative. Have one, no scar. But I will say this. Dick never worked right after. Doesn’t always happen, but happens a lot more than docs will admit.

5 mg Cialis or I can’t complete. 38 years old, 19% bf, zero blood flow issues, zero dick problems before.

Just putting it out there.

[–]2ndalRed Beret4 points5 points  (2 children) | Copy

Do you want to go to counseling? Decide that first. I'm sure some guys around here will give you their opinion that.

I was not interested in doing counseling. When my wife told me she thought we should do it, that it was the only way we were going to get through stuff, I told her I wasn't interested. When she persisted, I said calmly again that I wasn't interested and in so many words that it was not going to happen, that this was a hard boundary for me. I told her I respected her interest in doing it, that she had every right to want to, but it requires a husband and a wife and I wouldn't be going, and that no I didn't actually need to give her a valid reason. I told her that if this was a requirement for our marriage to continue then so be it, but I'm still not going. She was not happy. Guess what? It wasn't the only way to solve our problems. We figured it out. She never asked again. Things are solid.

[–]FlyingSexistPig1 point2 points  (1 child) | Copy

I'm with you. The problem with the marriage is that there's a problem. Counseling will likely not fix the problem. Just like "communication" won't EVER fix a relationship.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

Yeah, let me piggyback on this.

Men who find their way here are above average communicators. They have been "communicating" all over the place with their wives. They cajole, beg, plead, cry, pray, whine, and talk. God, have they talked. And talked and talked and talked. and they still have these problems and nothing ever gets solved. So "communicating" or "communicating better" never solves the problem.

What men need to do is less communicating, like u/2ndal up there.

Wife: We should do counseling.

2ndal: No. Im not interested.

Wife But we really should.

2ndal: No. Don't ask me again.

Wife: Why don't you want to go?

2ndal: Because I don't want to.

Wife: Why not? "I don't want to" isn't a good reason.

2ndal: Yes it is, because it's my reason. It's not happening. You want to leave over it, there's the door. I'm still not going.

If "communicating" solved men's problems, there would be no need for MRP or TRP.

[–]redandswollen4 points5 points  (0 children) | Copy

My experience is that when women are being manipulative, it's an immature form of getting their needs met. It sounds like you generally like your wife, that you want to be married, and that you want an intact family. I've had a lot of success in going out of my comfort zone and providing more comfort.

You've improved your body, developed interesting hobbies, and have a social life. This is where I diverge from BPP and his levels of dread. Sure, learn some game and practice on your wife. But if you want to stay married, don't cheat. And you may benefit from going to a counselor because it signals to your wife that you care. Go to therapy, learn some communication skills for your autistic ass, and enjoy the sex that follows.

She doesn't want you to give up basketball. She wants to feel like she gets the best parts of you. That you are present in your interactions with her. And that you care. If she absolutely has to have another baby, then you're not the man for her and you're better off without her.

[–]RedPillCoach3 points4 points  (2 children) | Copy

Interesting how quickly she was able to shut the water works off.

Yes, isn't it? Have you noticed how all of her interactions with you are pure manipulation?

I think the comfort test about basketball really wasn't about basketball.

Demanding you give up basketball is a Shit Test not a comfort test.

It is about the nail but it's a different nail.

[–]justpickanyusernameRed Beret[S] 0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy

Honestly, I don’t find her typically to be all that manipulative on a conscious level. She is still manipulative, but I think this is just naturally part of being a woman. The speed in which the massive sobs etc stopped was quite noticeable. Maybe I’m just hamstering here, but I think she isn’t consciously manipulating me, but she is going back to her playbook that she has used her whole life and doesn’t even recognize what it is that she is doing. Little girls learn early in life the power of tears.

As far as basketball, my OYS goes into a little more detail. Yes, it is a direct shit test in the “will you bend for me” kind of way. But, she is also seeking comfort from me as well in some other areas. She was just throwing a lot of things out and would shift from shit to comfort tests on a dime during the talk.

[–]RedPillCoach0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy


That's always the key word we debate. Guys like BPP are convinced that they do it deliberately but I am more on the side that it is the programming.

[–]Alpha_Engineer992 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy

Similar situation to mine - just subtract one kid.

I almost had a main event at the 1 yr (+- month). But didn’t. Stand your ground. Don’t have another kid if YOU don’t want one. Don’t do it “for her” or “God”. Tell her straight up. Looks like you already did. You already have 4 !

Sounds like you missed out on some big comfort tests. I think that’s part of her crashing. But do you think that her new diet also could be a variable?

You say that you are tired of the comfort tests. Dude, the cycle never ends. Shit test, shit test, shit test, comfort test. Repeat. Just keeps coming in. As long as you are improving and upping your SMV, which is a form of passive dread, she will comfort test you.

Those comfort tests are your chance to reset the relationship dynamics. From her control and frame, to yours. Assuming you still want her as a wife, try to build in the comfort. Fuck marriage counseling, it’s only going to fuck you.

For comfort, I incorporate a stronge manly hug, in the kitchen, (imagine a strong oak tree). No ass grabbing, no tongue, no words. Hug. That’s it. Move along. Let her Feelz your power.

I NEVER talk feelings at all with my wife now. I do share my vision with her though. As gay as “pillow talk” sounds and is, I do a variation form of it, called “pillow talk game”- I just made that name up.

I’ll talk about the future and what it will be like when the kids get older, what their professions will be, having them invite us over to Thanksgiving dinner, etc. she eats it up. I don’t do it a lot. Only as a reward. It’s a great comfort building tool as opposed to actually talking about any Feelz- which will fuck you too. She can feel your vision, strength, and presence.

Don’t let her manipulate you into having another kid if you don’t want one nor going to counseling.

[–]screechhaterRed Beret2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy

Holding frame in what you want is critical at this juncture.

My answer was always, with “counseling now” was “when we are actually having sex once a week again at a bare minimum, you can pick and I will go”.

Those type statements elicited so many gale force screaming tantrums, which I refused to react to, that it would have crushed most men.

I adiminitely fucking refused counseling. Guess who is fucking me once to twice a week now on the regular ?

Threats of counseling is the uncillary test of frame. “Hello ? Are you really this guy ? Or, is the fake ?”

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy


--Your wife isn't sexually attracted to you. No BJs = no sexual attraction. But there's a lot more going on here beneath the surface that is affecting her attraction vectors.

--stand firm on "no more kids". If that is your firm conviction and you've decided that is what you want, then you need to stand on it and not give in.

In marriage, "have kids or not" or "have more kids or not" is always, ALWAYS resolved in favor of the person who says "not". You DO NOT bring a child, or another child, into the world when one of the spouses doesn't want to. And the person who does want kids, or more kids, will just have to deal with it. In your case, your wife's choices are (1) acceptance there will not be a kid no. 5 and satisfaction with the family she now has; or (2) divorce; or (3) perpetual resentment because she remains in the marriage but will not accept the situation or find satisfaction in it.

Take every step necessary to avoid getting her pregnant. Do not rely on her using birth control, properly or at all. More than one "accidental" pregnancy resulted from women "forgetting" to take their pills. Yeah. Sure. She "forgot". Yeah, sure. She was one of the 1% that gets pregnant on the Pill.

--joint marital counseling is a bad idea. Generally it's the woman gathering ammunition for the coming divorce filing. She WILL remember every bad thing you say about her and your marriage, and she will use it against you in the divorce proceedings.

--joint marital counseling is usually pretty much this: Counselor and wife gang up on husband. Wife has a litany of grievances and complaints she airs out. Your complaints are given short shrift, hers MUST be addressed NOW. Counselor and wife will give you a list of things. If you do/don't do these things, and be/don't be those things, the marriage will improve and she'll "feel better". She can't hear your complaints right now because she's so emotionally tied up. We need to get her "emotionally untied" by you doing these things, and then we'll address your issues.

And then you never get to your "issues". Because you spend the next decade running around satisfying the list of demands the counselor and wife imposed on you. She gets more pissed off. Your issues never get addressed.

--If you think it's confidential and cannot be disclosed absent your consent, think again. Your therapist can't disclose what's said there, but SHE CAN.

--if she wants to go to counseling, tell her to go by herself. She needs to work through the loss of not being able to have a fifth kid. That is her problem and her issue to work through. You can be understanding about it, and compassionate about it. But you must not yield, and not yielding on it does NOT mean you are being a mean ass bastard about it.

[–]FlyingSexistPig1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy

I'm guessing that the pattern of your relationship was this: you initiated sex when you wanted it. You might need to start initiating when she wants it. It sounds like she's genuinely unhappy that you're not attracted to her anymore (her feelz, not the reals). I think that with your statement ("How long do you think we can keep doing this?") she suddenly realized that she has zero power in the relationship. None. Zip. Nada. Maybe you haven't realized this yet.

Now that you have all the power, what are you going to do with it? Where will you lead your family? Maybe her strong desire for a fifth child is that she feels it will reconnect you to her, and you won't just walk away. From your description of her behavior, it sounds like she really thinks you are about to walk out of her life. You're more fit, stronger, all the women suddenly find you interesting, etc. All of this paints a bad picture for her.

So, the 5th child is a shit test, but the waterworks sound like a comfort test. Take her back to the bedroom and fuck her until her eyes roll back in her head. She'll feel a million times better and will completely forget whatever it was she wanted to see a marriage counselor about.

Congratulations on being the prize. She knows you are.

[–]weakandsensitive1 point2 points  (1 child) | Copy

TLDR; Wife sent a text saying she would like to go to couples counseling this morning

Why didn't this conversation take place in person? Worth asking yourself.

Also worth asking her if the fifth kid is important enough for her to have it with another person. If it is, you should let her go be happy. But make sure she makes that decision.

[–]justpickanyusernameRed Beret[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

I’ve had the exact same thoughts. I kind of have been reserving that for a main event scenario though. Essentially, if you don’t think I’m living up to what I promised at marriage you are free to go and pursue that with someone else.

[–]RedPill-BlackLotusRed Beret1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy

Marriage counciling is a third party facilitating your compliance with your wifes demands. It gives you wife an perceived authority figure she can use to cement her position and the whole world will agree with her. It will make bluepill shit the frame around your marriage and it will be almost impossible to break.

It's the worst possible play. I have made this mistake.

Why would you go knowing what you know. That's the question.

I read your whole post and I loved your story. Keep going man.

Get your nuts clipped, don't get sperm jacked.

[–]rocknrollchuck1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy

She wants to use the counselor to pressure you into making her haaaaaaapy by agreeing to have that fifth child. Don't fall for it.

Tell her you are getting a vasectomy, and then schedule it - soon. Her reaction will tell you all you need to know.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (5 children) | Copy

I haven't initiated either

I get it, but the fact that you haven't had sex in 4 weeks is your fault. No initiation? No sex. You're shooting yourself in the foot. Don't like her when shes like that? Lead her out of it. Initiate anyway, get the no, continue on. She will come about...or she wont. But if you don't initiate, she wont.

The basketball? No. Take a look at the female message not the male message. She's still playing the game, still keeping score. "I bitch about basketball, he owes concessions. What's the number one concession I want? A 5th child. Do I really want a 5th child? Maybe, maybe not. What do I really want? Conpliance." <- your wife.

Agreeing to marriage counseling is also compliance.

[–]justpickanyusernameRed Beret[S] 0 points1 point  (4 children) | Copy

I'll own the initiating sex thing. There is still some work that I need to do there. I truly haven't felt like it much the last 4 weeks which is odd for me. I will say that I have not mastered overcoming LMR with her very well. Our sex has increased over the last year as I have applied the principles of MRP, but I would still say my initiation and game need work. I have managed to not get butthurt when turned down, but if I am being honest I am not always pushing as hard as I should.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (3 children) | Copy

Read your update. So her hamster ran out of gas and she fell in line. Then the demand for marriage counseling compliance turned into a request for guidance. "I see this is the way things are, lead me." As I've learned with many things that are said on these boards...here again lies truth in the words but not in the way you thought. Do what you want and lead her isn't simply fuck her thoughts and do what you want, and offer her a door to walk through...it's KNOW that she will likely fight against what you want, don't give in, and be ready to accept her back onto your ship when she wants that guidance from you.

Compliance tests, shit tests, waves crashing on the rock. You can be a stubborn asshole rock. But more likely you just need to realize that waves are the nature of women, and they will break upon the rock with force, but then run along the path of the rock afterward...gently guided by the rock's contours. The rock does not need to fight the water or hold a grudge against it...just accept that it crashes and dissipates.

Do you see now how her crashing was requesting compliance? Do you see how your withdraw from sex was a respose to her bad behavior rather than you doing your own thing? Stoney says "Reward good behavior" but often doesn't say "punish bad behavior". I think I'm starting to realize now why...you don't punish bad behavior, you simply withdraw yourself from it. Withdrawing time and attention is a tool for sure, but its a tool for a better you, not to punish her. Punishing her is investing in her frame.

Personally I know you're not "supposed" to be doing so out of revenge. And I know shes allowed to say no without feeling guilty. But I think deep down there was/is still a part that does it to punish, or withdraw, rather than acknowledge that it is a woman's nature to do those things and move on. I see your 4 week dry spell as a withdraw. Does that make sense?

[–]justpickanyusernameRed Beret[S] 0 points1 point  (2 children) | Copy

That was insanely insightful. Thank you.

I didn't recognize your username and wasn't expecting something so well thought out. I got to the end of your comment and was like who the hell is this? That was fantastic and the waves crashing on the rock is a great analogy. Not sure who you were on here before, but since you are MRP Approved with an account that has existed for 13 days this isn't your first time posting.

Whoever you are/were thank you.

[–]Chump_No_More0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy

Also realize that while her behavior is very predictable, so is yours.

When confidence, abundance & MPoO builds in a RP aware man with your progress, indifference invariably follows. Hence your lack of interest.

Men on this path have their own crises of sorts. When the 'Stay' and 'Go' plans have been (must be) the same for a dozen+ months, and abundance gives you the head space to internalize that you're truly doing all this work for you, the 'Go' plan looks increasingly less scary and a comfortable detachment settles in.

If you haven't decided yet that you're 'all-in' in this relationship, you need to do that calculus and either jump in, or not.

Which ever decision you make, you need to own it... no fucking half measures.

[–]justpickanyusernameRed Beret[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

Also realize that while her behavior is very predictable, so is yours.

There is a lot of truth in what you just said and the second really insightful comment I've received today. Over the last few weeks I have repeatedly told myself that I will eventually be having sex. That I would prefer it be with my wife, but that nonetheless I will be having sex and I am 100% confident in my ability to do so.

I don't think that is necessarily a bad mentality to maintain in your back pocket, but you are right about being either "all-in" or "all-out". I don't want to blow things up yet. She seems to be genuinely trying which gives me reason to keep at it. Yes, I may have options now, but if I still want this to work I need to be "all in" as you say. I can't half-ass this.

It's an interesting phase to be in right now and I may not be handling it well and need to grow into this new dynamic.

[–]470_2_700_nm0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

Text her back that you want her to suck your dick. Be authentic.

[–]thunderbeyond0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy

What happened 4 weeks ago? This seems important to the narrative.

Things were slowly on the up-and-up, and then she withdraws completely?

What happened?

[–]justpickanyusernameRed Beret[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

To be flat out honest, I think this is hormonal and her hashimotos at work. I have tracked her cycle for some time now. The first 2 weeks are usually very normal. It is the last two weeks where she will always crash if it is going to happen. There is also a chance that she had a covert contract that I was going to behave different after she started providing more sex. When I didn't, she gave up and crashed. I failed here by not providing enough comfort. I have changed in the last year and I need to find the right mix of alpha and beta here.

She is going to a doctor that will likely put her on progesterone. I think there truly may be a deficiency here. With all 4 kids she went into pre-term labor. With all 4 pregnancies they treated her with progesterone. She is likely deficient here and progesterone plays a larger role in a woman's cycle the last 2 weeks. I don't think it is a coincidence that she was supplemented with progesterone in pregnancy and this doctor is recommending it as well.

That's all theories at this point. She may have just realized I was a total dick 4 weeks ago and is coming to grips with it.

[–]dcapt460 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

After we were preg with 3rd I had decided we were done. Discussed with wife and at the time of the discussion she agreed we were done. Ended up having a C Section and Dr offered to tie tubes since he was in there. I agreed right away. Done.

Later wife said she wasn't really sure.... wish we hadn't.... Brings it up as a shit test from time to time. I love it. Easy to shoot down I just offer to try for 4 now anyway - maybe the surgery didn't work.... She has tried to get me to mine snipped in 'sympathy' of her. No way we are taking on unnecessary surgery. Scary thing is 20 years ago I might have done it.

[–]DanG30 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy


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