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Banning pecks + trying to connect

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February 9, 2017
10 upvotes

Just got done with some verbal intercourse with the wife. Took awhile and by the end the conclusion I came to is that she's looking for "connection." Things that were said by her (her feelz) ----

  1. I'm only here for sex.
  2. It's my job to make meals and babysit the kids so you can do whatever you want (lately this includes lifting, guys nights, other activities outside the house -- my time outside the house has skyrocketed since pre RP)
  3. We don't have anything in common. It's like we're business partners and nothing more.
  4. I better not cross you or you'll make me feel small, no matter who is around (family, friends, kids) --- *context is that I've nuked a few things that were highly disrespectful. 3 times in 2 months but she remembers them vividly.
  5. You don't care about me. You only care about what I give you.
  6. Your view of women seems to have changed (it has - I was the biggest white knight on the block for the last 5 of our 10 years married. It was a cause I took up - pathetic and paying for it now)

The convo was painful but I did my best to listen and provide comfort. Fogged, used A&A, but couldn't really break out of the seriousness of the convo with any AM.

Near the end, I said about the only thing that seemed to "land" well which was "it sounds like we need to connect - let's do a puzzle tonight after the kids go to bed. I'll make milkshakes." I gave her a specific time and treated it like I've been treating other commitments I've been making lately to get out of the house more (guys nights, extra commitments at work, etc).

I think she's seen me go through this dread process and hasn't seen herself in any of my plans. So I made plans that included her and she lit up and looked relieved and happy. We shared a long hug after that. Comfort test passed (I think).

Fast forward 15 mins.

Context: we're still on a sex moratorium. During this moratorium it's been my intention to capitalize on the low pressure of other types of intimacy (kissing, cuddling, etc w no expectation of sex). She knows this, it's not covert.

So on my way out the door I go in to kiss her forehead and she pulls back and gives me a dry peck on the lips. I tell her, as I've told her before when she tries the pecks, "I save those for grandma" and emphasize that no kissing is better than those kinds of kisses. I do it in a playful way, not butt hurt. She reiterates her oft used "nothing is good enough for you" and walks away.

Afterwards we text for a bit - I tease about that kind of kissing, she says "I just won't even try anymore" to which I reply that I'd be happier if she doesn't try since I can sense the forced/fake nature of it. I kept the texts jovial and resolute -- sprinkled with an IDGAF/OI attitude.

Fast forward a few hours. She texted that she's looking forward to our date night tonight. I genuinely am as well but don't plan to text back.

Not sure whether to call all of this a success, failure, or somewhere in between. Happy that I am genuinely not feeling needy and am feeling confident standing my ground and expressing my desires unabashedly. And trying to be realistic about her not being attracted to me yet. I don't blame her. I fucked up for 10 years and these past 2 months can't even begin to unravel the shitty web I spun. I'm in this for the long haul.


Post Information
Title Banning pecks + trying to connect
Author stew7000
Upvotes 10
Comments 63
Date 09 February 2017 09:33 PM UTC (3 years ago)
Subreddit askMRP
Link https://theredarchive.com/post/206531
Original Link https://old.reddit.com/r/askMRP/comments/5t2zpw/banning_pecks_trying_to_connect/
Similar Posts

Red Pill terms found in post:
A&Adread gamecomfort testliftwhite knight
Comments

[–]sven_igortsen8 points9 points  (11 children) | Copy

Dude, peck her back and carry on. Don't make such a big deal of it. Doesn't have to be a 10 second kiss every time, that'd be exhausting.

[–]stew7000[S] 1 point2 points  (10 children) | Copy

I don't know man... maybe you're right. Maybe this is an ill-advised boundary to set. Pecks just have this "I'm seriously not attracted to you but I will give you this peck so you can have your table scraps and leave me alone" vibe. And I genuinely would prefer nothing to that. But maybe I just need to accept it. Additional insight here would be solid.

[–][deleted] 3 points4 points  (7 children) | Copy

"I'm seriously not attracted to you but I will give you this peck so you can have your table scraps and leave me alone"

I doubt that she gives it so much thought.

Now, get more attractive... and watch how suddenly your pecks to her are "expressions of your lack of desire".

enjoy

[–]RuleZeroDADRed Beret0 points1 point  (5 children) | Copy

Swimming in attentive nurse waters has you in a giving mood.

What's up?

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (4 children) | Copy

seratonin levels.

not sure how I am coming off to be honest. and Therapists. my nurses are mostly old. The two younger blondes, I tell them they need a spanking every other day. Its cute.

"you're so bad, dr Curve"

its a nice thing.

[–]RuleZeroDADRed Beret0 points1 point  (3 children) | Copy

Is that a structural, chemical or circumstantial source of level change?

Are you in control of it?

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (2 children) | Copy

I was kind of guessing dude.

Like I said, I don't know how I am coming off except I feel broody.

In earlier years this is when I would sit down and write.

But again, don't know how I am coming off... so no idea whats actually "up"

[–]RuleZeroDADRed Beret0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy

I just might be projecting, but when I'm balls deep in snow and haven't seen the sun in two months, I get a little broody myself. I know, from my own experience, a slight uptick in mood is sometimes a precursor for a further drop shortly thereafter.

Heavy is the head that wears the crown, especially in February.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

you may be on to something.

Maybe I just need to shit or get off the pot with some things too.

[–]stew7000[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

You're right. She doesn't give it the thought that I do. I'm done thinking about that shit.

[–]sven_igortsen0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy

Guys here have told me this 1000 times, that I'm in her frame and I'm reacting to what she's doing too much. And it's what you're doing with these pecks too. Maybe your reaction to the peck is a symptom of a bigger respect / desire issue you have with her. I don't know.

But it's the wrong thing to be focusing on, and if you have a big reaction to a small simple thing like how she kisses you, you're in her frame and you're being a bitch. Give her a 10 second kiss when she does something awesome. Don't look for passion in every exchange, we have lives to live here bro.

[–]stew7000[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

Agree 100%. This post sucked.

[–]creating_my_life5 points6 points  (3 children) | Copy

You don't care about me. You only care about what I give you.

Let me guess, she's a SAHM? Oh the irony.

I'm guessing your bodyfat and muscles and dress don't yet put you in the top 20% of men's attractiveness yet. She doesn't believe that other woman would find you attractive, she has no reason to up her game. "Dread" can be a very slow process, but the underlying issue is DREAD...she has to DREAD that another woman WOULD ACTUALLY FUCK YOU.

You won't fix 10 years in 2 months.

I'd say keep focusing on you. Keep up the gym and diet. Don't blow things up just for fun, just focus on you.

[–]stew7000[S] 2 points3 points  (2 children) | Copy

I'll def keep pedal down on gym and diet. Would the peck boundary be seen as a blow up? Let me know what kind of blow up to avoid.

[–]creating_my_life6 points7 points  (1 child) | Copy

Suppose you had a 19 year old bikini model ready and willing to get on her knees and blow you later that night. No consequences at all. Would you really care if your wife pecked you or not? (This is "abundence" and "amused mastery" all wrapped into one). She'd peck you, and you'd knowingly smile thinking to yourself, "whatever..."

[–]stew7000[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy

Perfect. Thanks

[–]drty_prRed Beret3 points4 points  (8 children) | Copy

Don't over think the kissing stew. Pecks are fine. Make it a little more if you want by holding it that extra half second.

I like how you didn't say too much during her comfort test. I find AA tends to come off a little to insensitive. You will see how AM is your best friend here. When she knows you love her, yet she knows that her outburst has little affect on you, that's a milestone.

As for the neighborhood hood white knighting, don't feel bad for a second here. They are giving you no value, so provide none in return. No explanation needed. You're a man who values his time now.

If I can give you one real piece of advice though, it's make sure you are fun. I spent way too much time trying to cultivate a culture of dominance, that I wasn't me. Don't let this happen. It held me back way too much at the beginning. Keep on keeping on stew.

[–]stew7000[S] 1 point2 points  (1 child) | Copy

Seems to be the consensus. I'll lift the ban and make it a joke moving forward.

[–]SexistFlyingPig0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

You can always go in for the quick peck, get to within an inch, and then leave. You go 90% of the way, and when she goes to close the 10%, you back off and smile.

[–]milkywayer0 points1 point  (5 children) | Copy

deleted What is this?

[–]SexistFlyingPig0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

AA is agree and amplify.
AM is amused mastery.

[–]RuleZeroDADRed Beret0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy

Dude.

Pro Bono for the year:

https://illimitablemen.com/2014/12/14/the-shit-test-encyclopedia/ https://therationalmale.com/2012/09/14/amused-mastery/

Read both and start passing shit tests today. Then read the sidebar in the main sub. Go monk mode until you can recognize shit tests, comfort tests, and blatant disrespect. In the meantime, get your game, diet and lifting (not p90X, or faggy Shawn T bullshit) in place.

[–]stew7000[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

I'll internalize both of these articles. Monk mode isn't a bad idea, and I won't let up on gym and diet.

[–]stew7000[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

Look up AM post on Rational Male blog.

[–]drty_prRed Beret0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

A simple example would be something like:

  • wife - comes through the front door "good thing your in here cranking music and organizing your fucking fishing box while I have to carry 2 heavy bags of groceries in!"

  • AA - "not 2 bags! Let me get those for you stat!" proceeds to grab the bags

  • fog - "they don't look too heavy, but I can see your point" as you're not really looking at her too much or caring a whole lot

  • AM - "jesus! Good thing there isn't 3 bags" said with smooth sarcastic smile

In all 3 situations, you are displaying that the grocery bags isn't a big deal and you DGAF.

[–]ParadoxThatDrivesUs1 point2 points  (1 child) | Copy

I'm anti-peck. My wife does this. I go for some genuine display of affection and instead get this bullshit. I AA it by grabbing a feel during the kiss, which usually prompts her to break it off. Then I laugh or wink and move on. She laughs in response.

[–]stew7000[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy

Might try this

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (2 children) | Copy

Things that were said by her

uh huh.

Be hot, reward good behavior, do not reward bad behavior. Dole out comfort as you see fit. And so long as you have your shit together, everything else is hamster.

If you are so inclined, build a narrative. If you can describe your situation in a 5 minute conversation, she will frame it around that narrative. This is the come to jesus speech.

She communicates to convey her emotional state, stop listening to the language

[–]bogeyd6Mod / Red Militia1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy

Thanks for linking that post again. I've probably read it about ten times now.

Most important sentence in the post:

"Just let them run their mouth, watch her emotional states play out in real time."

[–]stew7000[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

That post is great. Thank you

[–]bogeyd6Mod / Red Militia1 point2 points  (1 child) | Copy

I kept the texts jovial and resolute

Stew, love the posts man but come on. You know better than this. Texting is for logistics and sometimes sexting. None of the emotions you put into text translated on the other side. You have to stop that nonsense. Anything serious on text gets ignored and followed up with a phone call or in face discussion. You can definitely make this somewhere in between.

verbal intercourse with the wife

Again. Why? There is no point in negotiating with her. You are making alot of my early mistakes where I literally cut the wife out of everything. She deserved it but in hindsight it was a very negative impact in her life. She was never included, always felt left out, and any decision I made was the equivalent of a SCOTUS decision. Now, some women get drawn to that. They start searching for a part of your life where they can fit in. That means they want to be there and you can work with that. Women with unsatisfied hypergamy start withdrawing from the relationship. Why? Quite simply they think they can do better, even if its not true.

So awhile ago /u/UEMcGill replied to you https://www.reddit.com/r/askMRP/comments/5rbucv/making_the_wife_feel/dd62fzq/ and I think that still holds true. You waffled last night and in the beginning weakness isn't forgiven. You are trying to unseat a queen and take your rightful place on the throne so to speak. It's not easy. Recovering from career beta and it's alot of uphill. Keep the hammer down and nevermind them brakes.

[–]stew7000[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy

I failed the text game. Renewed commitment not to fuck up again in that dept - no excuses. Glad I'm catching the flaw in cutting her off completely. The date last night was actually great and we had a much better kiss after. She thanked me over and over again and talked about how fun it was. Definitely feeling the uphill tho. Today I've just been angry honestly - anger phase possibly - just angry that I've squandered my best years and angry that I've gotta climb out of this massive hole I've dug. Taking out my anger by cleaning out the entire garage.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (2 children) | Copy

Stew! My man! I've been awaitin' your next installment. I'm not sure if it's thought of the puzzle or the milkshakes but I admit you got me a little half chub going on here.

Jovial, resolute, unabashed, and confident. Sounding better and better. Stew you hitting up that OYS yet? Better git.

[–]stew7000[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy

Lol. Yeah dude I've been hitting up OYS for past 3 weeks.

[–]RuleZeroDADRed Beret0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

“I must be cruel only to be kind; Thus bad begins, and worse remains behind.”

We've got Sven and Stew to root for. Opposites in personality and seeking the same thing. Yet both can use a solid boot to the ass.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (3 children) | Copy

A great example of the oak and rock discipline that is a foundation here. She is going to storm from time to time, because she is subject to her feelz. You smile through the storm, respond with action and few words.

You sound like you are doing a good job breaking co-dependency and being your own man. Do you have a positive frame around the house? My wife used to test me with this stuff alot as I broke free from referencing her for all my emotions, decisions, etc. But, the more I've maintained a positive frame and pursued her (with the same kissing, touching, hugs, smiles, tickles, etc like you are) the less she offers these tests. I'm not naive enough to think they are cured, however.

[–]stew7000[S] 2 points3 points  (2 children) | Copy

That's a great way to put it -- I've stopped referencing her for decisions and emotions -- and as a result she feels useless and "not a part of my life." I'm going to keep upping my positive vibe around the house and stop being business like. I've been borderline Rambo at times, and I know that's no bueno.

[–]SexistFlyingPig0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy

One of the biggest mental shifts for become RP is to stop seeking out others to make decisions for you. Ask questions to gather information, then make the decision yourself.

Rather than, "What would you like to eat for dinner tonight?" try "Do you have a desire for something specific for dinner tonight?" or, depending on your situation, maybe "I'm going to make salmon tonight, should I make enough for you too?" She can decide yes or no, but she doesn't have to consult the vast array of information in existence to come up with something.

There's a big difference between, "What would you like to do today?" and "Would you like to go for a walk with me?". If she genuinely wants to do something else, she'll say so, but you're leading with the second question, and you're following with the first question.

[–]stew7000[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

This is good - I think I was going too Rambo by leading with the second question but not accepting alternatives.

[–]BobbyPeru1 point2 points  (2 children) | Copy

Oh so much wrong, I don't know where to start....

  • Horrible fogging
  • A&A when you're not in a position of power to pull it off
  • Texting feeeeeelings
  • Making a mountain out of a molehill with the kiss. BTW, you looked butthurt, and she saw it.

2 months is nothing - you are right. But you are wrong thinking you can't turn it around. It takes time, work, and patience.

Do the work: lift, sidebar, dread, map

You're trying though, and it's noted.

[–]stew7000[S] 1 point2 points  (1 child) | Copy

Yeah that sums up where I derailed. Thanks for the wake up call.

[–]BobbyPeru0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

Keep at it, and one day it will all just "click." You'll know it when it happens. It took me about 9 months to get the first major click. To be in control of you life again - i don't know if there's a better feeling.

You have the balls to put your stuff out there honestly, and that already puts you head and shoulders above the rest. That takes balls.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (3 children) | Copy

I'm really starting to believe with women just keep all conversation superficial. Save the heavy convos for other men.

They seem happiest like hens pecking around the yard.

[–]stew7000[S] 1 point2 points  (2 children) | Copy

I'd love to avoid the heavy stuff but not sure how to pass comfort tests without facing them every now and again.

[–]bogeyd6Mod / Red Militia1 point2 points  (1 child) | Copy

Just hug her and keep your mouth closed.

[–]stew7000[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

I remember this from early reading, I'll re-implement, but avoid autism.

[–]Griever1140 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

Action =/= words. When she pecked you, you go in for a 10 second kiss... or not and just peck with an ass slap.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

Seems like the problems stem from your "red pilling". Maybe if you just act like a decent human, presumably one she fell in love with, and take some responsibilities around the house then she'll be happier with you.

It's really not rocket science.

[–]ArchwingerRed Beret0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy

You're not having sex with your wife, and you talk too much about stupid shit. How is this progress?

Progress is when you talk less, look awesome, your wife is genuinely worried your might be cheating, and is relieved as hell when you pull her close at night to fuck her brains out, because that means an awesome guy like you still wants her.

[–]stew7000[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

Guilty as charged. I need to quit talking about stupid shit and just keep the pedal down at gym, dressing well, and living the life I want to live. Need to quit internalizing her games.

[–]ReddJiveRed Beret-1 points0 points  (8 children) | Copy

I don't even know where to begin here, but I will sum it up.

  • You talk too much.

  • you failed a series of comfort tests.

  • you have accepted her desexualization of the relationship.

In short, suck less. Do better.

[–]stew7000[S] 0 points1 point  (7 children) | Copy

I agree I talked too much in this case. Can you elaborate on the comfort test failures and desexualization acceptance so I know where I messed up?

[–]ReddJiveRed Beret0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

No. Do your research and learn.

I am done doing it for you guys.

[–]alphabeta49Red Beret0 points1 point  (5 children) | Copy

I feel like typing, so I'll take over for Jive.

Comfort test failures:

I read your post. Unless Jive is referring to another post, I didn't see much wrong with how you handled the comfort tests. The puzzle and milkshakes idea is interesting... not something I would have gone with, as it reminds me of Obamacare Boy or NeckBeard. Now, a hot hunk of a man offering puzzles and milkshakes? I'd even be down for that. But she's clearly not attracted to you, as I'll discuss in the next point.

Desexualization:

Because you're either Obamacare Boy or NeckBeard, she sees you in the role of a friend. She cannot, biologically, be physically attracted to you. So she works actively, even consciously, to avoid sexual tones in communication. Even decent kisses are a chore. And she probably feels bad about all of this, and doesn't want to avoid you, but she just can't help it.

You have allowed this desexualization to happen. And the precedent was set happened a long time ago. Back in your beta days, at least one time you indicated you were fine with her controlling the sex. That's been in her head ever since. It will take a long time to shake her out of that reality, and you can't do it overtly. You almost have to be unaware that you're changing in her eyes.

Monk mode for you. Keep working on yourself, improve, drop body fat and put on muscle, have fun with friends and hobbies, and kill your need for others. And there's a good chance you'll find her breaking her own moratorium.

[–]stew7000[S] 0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy

I've been neck beard and Obamacare Boy in the past but no longer - that's still in her mind at times tho, no doubt. I like the idea of being unaware that I'm changing in her eyes. I've seen great gains in sexualizing the relationship w/o sex (dirty talk, kino, etc) which she's actually responded well too. This dumb pecking thing is rare lately - I just internalized it and puked to you guys. Helpful to get my ass handed to me here so I don't sit and sulk.

[–]alphabeta49Red Beret0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

Glad to help!

[–]ReddJiveRed Beret0 points1 point  (2 children) | Copy

IMO he failed the HUGE comfort test by talking. Sure you have to say words but the fact he glossed over the conversation tells me he went through the play book or routines and lines hoping something would work. It's like a MMA fighter who hasn't trained correctly. Just punching and kicking at his opponent hoping something will land.

Now add to this the damn near unphysical relationship he allows?

THe only answer here would have been to grab her, hold her closewhile she talked.

I am only here for sex

What was his response? What she is really saying is "we aren't having sex. We need to". She doesn't want him to think sex is her only value. We know this.

But our stud did nothing here. Bet he tried to convince her otherwise using words. Comforts need action for reassurance. He provided none. Kino, dirty talk. Fine fine fine, but this moment was his moment to get close, and personal. She was begging for it. ASking, but talk talk talk talk

/u/Archwinger was spot on here. She knows she's not adding value but keeping him on the short leash. He can still play her little game of building emotional attraction, or the deep emotional connection she feels she needs for that true Hollywood romance.

No. He needs to take control here. Show her that despite her little girl bullshit that he sees her both as a sex goddess and as his wife, mother to his kids....blah blah blah. Right now? He's deeply invested the emotional connection.

Of course /u/stew7000 can prove me wrong. Only time will tell

[–]stew7000[S] 0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy

I didn't really respond to any of her points - I think my post gives the impression that I talked a lot. I didn't. I still talked too much tho. And I didn't hold her close like you said - I'm certain that would have helped. I am going to face any remaining fear I have of her emotional wrath and overcome it.

[–]ReddJiveRed Beret0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

Prove me wrong

[–]SexistFlyingPig-1 points0 points  (1 child) | Copy

You are focusing on you because you need to. You are changing who you are. This isn't an easy process and it requires focus, concentration, and constant effort. It doesn't leave a lot of time for other people.

So, it's time for you to lead your family, and not just abandon them. Give your wife specific instructions of what you expect of her when you get home. Don't fight about it. If she doesn't do what you ask, ignore it. Don't get into some stupid power struggle over it.

For example, let's say you would like her to make certain the kitchen is clean when you get home. Text her when you're going to the gym, or wherever, that you'd like her to clean the kitchen while you are gone. If you get home and the kitchen isn't clean, then clean it yourself, and say nothing. The things that you ask her to do are the things that must be done. You give her tasks to complete because you are leading her, and the family. Maybe you plan on sitting down with the kids to work on homework in the kitchen when you get back from the gym. Maybe you're planning on bringing home takeout, or you'd like to make dinner. There's a reason for the kitchen to be clean and you've given her the task of doing it.

This is the leadership role. You aren't a drill sergeant or a taskmaster. You are just leading. Maybe you lead her to spend time together doing something fun.

You are a busy man, and your time and attention are valuable commodities, not to be squandered. She won't remember the quantity of time and attention that you spend on her, but she will remember the quality. The same goes for your children.

Remember that she wants desperately to be lead by YOU. She married YOU because she thought you were better than her and that you would lead her to a better life. Right now, you are improving yourself, and she has noticed. Maybe you can share your time and attention and lead her to where she wants to be.

[–]stew7000[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

I've been doing this off and on (asking her to do things and then doing them without saying anything when she doesn't). This is a good reminder to do that more often. Last night was a good start to sharing time and affection.

[–]JDRoedellRed Beret-1 points0 points  (1 child) | Copy

Too much talking about the issue. Definitely don't text about it. I hope UEMcgill doesn't see this.

[–]stew7000[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

Yup - done texting.



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