TRP as a data source and a mindset is actually hurting the general interests of men as a whole

squidracer · 2017-11-18T11:14:32+00:00

I'm old enough to remember the first bodybuilder craze of the 90s thanks to Mr, Arnold.

Everyone still got fat. 90% of red pillers will still get fat. If you actually self improve you'll be fine

exit_sandman · 2017-11-18T07:46:51+00:00

Congrats, you just described peacocking.

That said, I somewhat disagree with your fundamental premise, i.e. that there is no net gain from self improvement if everybody does it. To some extent status/attractiveness relative to other men certainly plays a role, but other than that it's not as if confidence, style etc. as an absolute value was worthless.

NalkaNalka · 2017-11-18T13:50:53+00:00

1- The idea of TRP is not to improve society, it's to improve the chances of the individual. MRAs are interested in society.

2- The amount of sex is not static. More attractive men out there doing more seduction will increase the amount of sex being had.

3- The more men improve as a whole, the more the distribution will diffuse. Women share Alphas not because they want to but because there are not enough to go around.

4- Only a very small percentage of men goes red pill and of them only a small percentage actually put it into practice to the end result of the red pill on the SMP is jack shit.

5- Real world >>> theoretical abstracts.

Pope_Lucious · 2017-11-18T10:34:35+00:00

It depends on your outlook on the world.

Let's take the fitness example. Is the world a better or worse place if men start taking their fitness seriously?

On one hand, there is more fierce competition caused by a culture where being in-shape might be the new normal, as opposed to being a fat slob.

But couldn't it also be that this inspires further competition which sustains a culture of fitness?

Pragmatically it doesn't matter much. Most men can't save themselves from their own bad habits.

Pillowed321 · 2017-11-18T15:50:59+00:00

My problem with TRP is that it seeks to help individual men at the expense of all other men. Traditional gender roles are bad for men and we need to focus on getting rid of those traditionalist views, instead of teaching men to take advantage of them. In your example, long before TRP came along women still had very high standards and men still had to compete against each other. This has been exacerbated by online dating, so especially today even without TRP men would still be getting the short end of the stick for dating and would have to put a lot more effort into impressing women than women put into attracting men. But the solution should be to change how demanding and entitled many women are and push for a more egalitarian approach to dating.

To be fair though, MRAs have been trying to do that for decades and so far both traditionalists and feminists have opposed it. So I can kind of understand TRP's position if they believe it's just futile to change how society shits on men. Ideally we may want to get rid of those traditionalist beliefs but if both the left and the right are fighting to keep traditional gender roles, then it might be better for individual men to learn to exploit that even if it does continue to hurt men as a whole in the long-term. If any feminist truly hates what TRP is about then they should stop opposing MRAs and instead join us in pushing for equality, because if we had more equality then TRP wouldn't exist in the first place.

SeemedGood · 2017-11-18T16:15:36+00:00

It does not appear that you have done much research on the topic at hand, nor that you have given much consideration to of what the self-improvement which can be drawn from the tenets of the philosophy actually consists or to the potential effects of that self-improvement.

There is nothing inherently good at being good at flirting or learning the ability to approach women in public spaces.

There is. It builds inner confidence and enhances ones ability to interact positively with others.

There is nothing inherently good at having a better fashion sense, eventually you will be forced to spend more money/time to outcompete other guys in your ability to dress.

"Fashion sense" ≠ spending money/time on clothes in a competition with other men. The idea is that you consider your appearance and the impression that it creates in others and develop a style of your own that helps you engender the types of impressions that you wish to create.

There is nothing inherently good in choosing high-status hobbies and lifestyle over choosing low-status hobbies and lifestyle (Playing in a band Vs playing chess).

This is not a tenet of TRP philosophy. Sure, some guys may suggest this, but it's not a tenet.

There is nothing inherently good at having a cool and polished social media account and wasting time on signaling with cool travel photos and status symbols.

Nor is this anywhere near a tenet. Opinions on the subject probably vary about as widely as they do in the gen pop. Many of the more experienced men recommend staying off of social media altogether.

And there's nothing inherently good in doing plastical surgeries or lookmaxing.

And also not a tenet of TRP philosophy. Opinions vary on this as well, just like they do amongst every other group of people on the planet.

TRP philosophy is simply a collection of observations and some deduction, the point of which is to suggest that men who are unsatisfied with their interactions with women discontinue blind belief in the modern Western zeitgeist about sexual interaction and replace blind belief with objective observation of the environment, objective observation of the self, objective critique of both, and introspection. The philosophy further suggests that men assume responsibility for themselves and their outcomes in life and work on themselves to bring those outcomes into accordance with their desires. In a small, but significant, way it is a philosophy that suggests expending effort to raise one's consciousness and thus garner more control over oneself - no more, and no less. Do not confuse the recommendations or shared experience of individuals that ascribe to or just try to learn from the philosophy with the tenets (or even "mindset") of the philosophy itself.

For future reference, you might consider doing a smidgen of honest research and lending it some consideration before propping debate topics. Doing so will make your base arguments much stronger and more relevant.

notworthmuch20xx · 2017-11-18T16:29:31+00:00

If every male is going to self-improve himself at the same level everyone will be exactly in the same situation as before, with the only difference is that the men wasted time and resources while doing it.

Every male is not going to self improve. Just look at how many incels are in TRP

DB605 · 2017-11-19T17:05:04+00:00

This post is really thought provoking. What a welcome change from the trashy stuff we usually get. Nice.

I have thought about the points you raise for quite some time. If every man had TRP, if TRP was taught in schools even as some RP's wish, women would still win. They'd win even harder because now they have higher value men spending more time and resources competing for them than previously without them having to do anything themselves. TRP is essentially decreasing the success of men universally as it grows because their competition for each individual man gets better and seeing as sex is a zero-sum game for men (you either win big, or lose completely), the losers won't know the difference anyway. It's really the guys in the middle of the SMP that get massively screwed...

That being said, if your idea of a good time is stimulating conversation about politics and a good game of chess, you're not the kind of person who's going to last in dudeBro culture anyway, nor are you the kind of person who's going to be touching many boobies anyway so that situation sort of solves itself.

I always think back to highschool and how hard I tried not to be directly associated with the kids who'd play YuGiOh, and MTG at lunch in highschool. I think most people have these memories of the nerd kids doing this shit, and how much flak they'd get, but really, fuck man they were free. Actually spending their time on shit they enjoy vs these other jabronis working hard to be cool and getting nothing in return...

Anyways, as this is a debate post, I'll disagree with you on one thing though: generally better seducers are considered by most to be better people via halo effect. Of course, this isn't really true...one of the best seducers I currently know is also one of the biggest value sponging assholes I know, but nevertheless I think your statement is generally incorrect from the perspective of the more basic masses.

Ascimator · 2017-11-18T07:59:22+00:00

Just as most people will not become businessmen, most men will not try hard to self-improve.

funny_lyfe · 2017-11-18T08:13:38+00:00

What if, you don't give a shit? Competing is how men get what they want. And eventually the situation doesn't improve?

No it does. Most men are fucking slobs. When you start competing consistently, you are already close to being top 20%.

celincelin · 2017-11-18T15:57:27+00:00

Great minds think alike. I was thinking about writing something called "Why lift if it's all about cardio?", but your post rendered it mostly irrelevant.

I mean, here's some of the frequent upvoted advice from TRP:

ride a motorcycle, ride it real fast, it generates tingles like nothing else
do cocaine brah, biches love cocaine
get some "tats"
do roids
pimps get laid like crazy (this one is often just left as a statement, so I don't know if you're supposed to enter the exciting world of illegal prostitution, in addition to doing drugs of course)

However, I'll disagree about this "good for society" talk. In my opinion, society isn't entitled to anything. It should pay you money if it wants something "good" out of you.

abaxeron · 2017-11-18T12:58:54+00:00

And what happens if men, in the light of fierce competition for women, start de-pedestalizing women and understanding the true value of sex (which turns out to be very close to zero)?

Will it "hurt the general interests of men as a whole" too?

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QuestionablePresence · 2017-11-18T07:44:18+00:00

a better person for society

What does that even mean?

Aaren_Augustine · 2017-11-18T07:59:42+00:00

Do you think a woman with a ton of beta orbiters is detrimental to that woman?

WavesAcross · 2017-11-18T08:48:41+00:00

While I don't disagree that sexual attractiveness is positional. I disagree with conclusions you draw from it.

You need to define what you mean by "inherently good". Ethics is really messy and complicated and this phrase is doing a lot of heavy lifting, and what you mean by "better person".

What things are inherently good? What is a "better" person and what makes one better?

All I am going to say is that a lot of the things you describe would make my life happier even if everyone else was doing it too, and more so than if I wasn't. So in that respect TRP isn't against the interests of men.

Finally another thing you haven't considered is what if there is a cut off of attractiveness that women won't engage with? Your assuming that women would be attracted to men even if men didn't do improvement at all. I.E A situation where:

Lisa prefers mike over johnny, but more importantly prefers remaining single rather than dating a man who doesn't have a suit.

a_mans_perspective · 2017-11-18T14:32:10+00:00

If every male is going to self-improve himself at the same level

This is where the argument falls apart. Self improvement is hard. TRP is bitter. None of this is easy. It takes a certain amount of anger, willingness to deprogram from the BP mindset, effort, time, basic intellect to be able to read and comprehend everything, etc. which not all men have.

It will never come to a point where a large portion of the population are actively living the RP lifestyle. Even if most men had internalized it, they would bullshit around just throwing out the concepts without putting in the work.

It's not an arms race unless all the relevant actors are doing it, and that isn't close to the case, nor will it ever be. This isn't an arms race, it's a single arms depot that you have to trek through the desert to reach.

MoodyAres · 2017-11-18T13:20:54+00:00

TRP is and always will be a blip on the radar of society. There will never be some out of control arms race caused by TRP. The biggest damages we've already seen from things like the sexual revolution and birth control. Now having money and being a kind provider are worthless and women simply want an entertainng puffy Chadcock with beautiful plumage.

Contradict-- · 2017-11-18T14:57:59+00:00

You're really trying to tell TRP to think collectively? Good fucking luck.

Also, you can not lift, be unfashionable, and have a nerd-ass hobby like theater or chess while still being RP.

And developing social skills and maintaining your personal appearance is both good for society and your personality.

[deleted] · 2017-11-18T16:32:37+00:00

Given the other comments, it seems you mistake the context of TRP and why men use it.

Not all men will ever fully use TRP, and a small amount of guys on TRP will actually use it in a truly successful way. Your example relies on the idea that all men will suddenly be doing these things which is unproven and false.

Second, TRP is a response to the American SMP, it's a response to a playing field which the average level of competition is greatly raised. I live in California, it's very common for most every guy to lift. Not going to the gym at all would have you considered out of shape.

The point is, a lot of men don't even realize going to the gym and lifting is essential for getting hot women. TRP simply exposed them to this truth.

BewareTheOldMan · 2017-11-18T17:42:29+00:00

If every male is going to self-improve at the same level everyone will be exactly in the same situation as before

It’s not going to happen. It just isn’t, but even if that’s the case, then women would also have to improve to compete for the Top 20%. Most Top 20% Men are not checking far below their level. It’s occasional, but not often. In short - women would become better as well.

Self-improvement for anyone – male or female is never wasted effort.

Many of the things that TRP calls self-improvement isn't actually self-improvement but weaponized signaling that doesn't make you a better person for society but just a better seducer.

Men will not generally abandon their core principles and personality no matter how much TRP Philosophy they absorb. The men who misuse it were the type to do so with or without TRP. In short – society loses nothing and maybe gets a better "product" should this man change/transfer his behavior in support of that effort. Besides, people change over time, gain maturity and wisdom, with many transferring their life-experience to positive effort.

TRP just makes this process of competition more obvious and more efficient and the competition more fierce, Means you'll have to waste more time and resources than before to compete.

Negative – everyone plateaus to some point and many are satisfied once they reach a certain point of improvement/achievement. Basically – they get to a point of happiness with a specific level and everything they’ve earned from their hard work. At that point, it’s a matter of simple maintenance not to undo their hard-gained effort.

SlightlyHomo · 2017-11-18T21:20:24+00:00

Imagine there was a third man, interested in Lisa, who is too poor to afford an Armani suit. There you have it, Johnny and Mark both increased their relative status.

Also all of those things will help you out in your professional and inter-personal life as well. Being more attractive means people are nicer to you. Lifting with a few exceptions, will help in any sport you do play. Learning to approach women will make you more confident in job interviews.

Of course if everyone does this then there's no point, I agree. But not everyone will succeed.

SirNemesis · 2017-11-18T22:51:05+00:00

Agreed. I think mgtow helps men as a whole, while hindering its own adherents. Kind of the opposite of TRP.

VoidInvincible · 2017-11-19T03:00:13+00:00

Johnny and Mark? Lisa? Somebody has seen The Room.

DagonNaxos · 2017-11-20T07:50:57+00:00

I agree with your weponization analysis.

I think the philosophical aspects of a lot of TRP/PUA/RSD crowd has helped me think a little bit deeper on subjects and has helped me in business, especially when interfacing with clients. I don't approach or do any sort of game activities, so no data personally there.

The biggest issue I have is that, like most things, you have a small group who does it well and then you have a bunch of folks who half ass it and are sloppy and give the whole thing a bad name. Then that makes everyone's lives harder.

If one more person tells me to "just be confident. Hold frame and lift, bro" I'm going to beat them to death with their blender bottle...

newName543456 · 2017-11-20T08:34:33+00:00

What is "inherently good" supposed to mean? Did you mean "improvement of situation of men as a whole group"? What if it's at the cost of women? Is it still "inherently good" then?

Many of the things that TRP calls self-improvement isn't actually self-improvement but weaponized signaling that doesn't make you a better person for society but just a better seducer. So in order to keep up with the competition - Men will have to spend more time doing things that make them attractive instead of doing other valuable things like volunteering, becoming more educated or investing time in low-status hobbies that they will actually enjoy.

Self interest > collective interest, unless it's not too inconvenient to do the latter. You won't give up your food if you're starving, will you?

And eventually the situation of men as a whole wouldn't improve

Ditto, it's not in my interest to improve situation of men as a whole. It's in my interest to improve MY individual situation.

Kazooman · 2017-11-25T05:23:16+00:00

Just legalize prostitution already for fucks sake. Save us all the misery

Whisper · 2017-11-26T05:36:33+00:00

But a lot of the things that TRP preaches doesn't really make you a better person

Better how?

Title	TRP as a data source and a mindset is actually hurting the general interests of men as a whole
Author	EntropyMaximizer
Upvotes	15
Comments	165
Date	November 18, 2017 7:23 AM UTC (8 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/PurplePillDebate
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/PurplePillDebate/comments/7drfmk/trp_as_a_data_source_and_a_mindset_is_actually/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/PurplePillDebate/trp-as-a-data-source-and-a-mindset-is-actually.264826 https://theredarchive.com/post/264826

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