Women, what's your opinion on the men's rights movement

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Women like you are the reason the tradition of "no sex until marriage" used to be a thing, and why slutshaming was massively prevalent in the past.

Why should ANYONE but you pay for your sexual choices and your irresponsible behavior.

You have like 20 different ways of avoiding pregnancy and child birth.

You have every ability to keep your legs closed until you're relatively sure a guy is decent, and until you've secured his agreement to have a child with you. But you can't be bothered, and expect everyone else, from the guy who trusted you when you said you were on the pill to the taxpayer to pay for your fuck-ups.

I see Littleknownfacts as a bit of a mercenary and I really don't like her attitude, but at least she's willing to hold herself to some freaking standards. You, on the other hand, seem to be perfectly happy being a total deadbeat and expecting everyone else to pay for your ass, and acting like when they object THEY are the ones who are in the wrong.

[–]questioningwomandetached from society0 points1 point2 points 9 years ago (11 children) | Copy Link

[–]girlwriteswhat9 points10 points11 points 9 years ago (9 children) | Copy Link

Accidental motherhood doesn't happen. You have the morning after pill, abortion, adoption and safe haven abandonment if you have an accidental pregnancy.

After all, it's his DNA.

Ah, yes. His DNA, his responsibility. So we can get rid of adoption and safe havens as options for women, right? And if there was a mix-up at the fertility clinic through no fault of yours (I mean, they SAID they had responsible practices) and your eggs were used to impregnate some other woman, she can totally come after you for child support. DNA is DNA, after all. And if artificial wombs ever become a thing, and embryos can be "aborted" without terminating the fetus, and then gestated to term artificially so that the other parent (you know, whose DNA is so important) can take custody, well, you won't have any objections to forcing that woman to pay child support.

Kids deserve a stable upbringing

Not being raised by a moron who can't even properly take a pill every day before she bangs whoever comes along on 20 minutes' acquaintance would probably go a long way to having a stable upbringing.

A guy could say he's for marriage and taking care of a kid but bail out when the pregnancy happens.

"A girl could say she's on birth control and not interested in having a kid, but be lying and intentionally get knocked up against his wishes."

And please don't pretend this doesn't happen. I know a married couple where the woman did this four freaking times. "Ooops! Guess what honey! I know you said we couldn't afford another baby, but haha, I'm pregnant! I don't know what could have happened!" Yeah, her sister knows what happened because she came right out and told her that she just quietly went off the pill and got her way. Oh, and every time he suggests getting a vasectomy, she threatens him with divorce (which means him paying alimony and child support for 5 kids).

Stop pretending you have no power over your life. Fuck sake, look at your flair. How pathetic.

[–]questioningwomandetached from society-1 points0 points1 point 9 years ago (8 children) | Copy Link

Ah, yes. His DNA, his responsibility. So we can get rid of adoption and safe havens as options for women, right? And if there was a mix-up at the fertility clinic through no fault of yours (I mean, they SAID they had responsible practices) and your eggs were used to impregnate some other woman, she can totally come after you for child support. DNA is DNA, after all. And if artificial wombs ever become a thing, and embryos can be "aborted" without terminating the fetus, and then gestated to term artificially so that the other parent (you know, whose DNA is so important) can take custody, well, you won't have any objections to forcing that woman to pay child support.

For the record I think the woman should be required to inform the father before giving up the baby for adoption. If he wants full custody he should be able to get it because of DNA. If he or his family want full custody, the baby shouldn't be able to be adopted out or left in a safe haven. Safe havens should DNA test the babies and contact the fathers they match up with.

Accidental motherhood doesn't happen. You have the morning after pill, abortion, adoption and safe haven abandonment if you have an accidental pregnancy.

What if someone wants the baby but can't afford it? She should be able to keep it.

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I think a more important discussion (and the discussion many of the men who subscribe to MRA beliefs should be having) is not so much about appropriate "gender roles" for our times, but about technology and its influence on stereotypical ideas of masculinity.

Women and men can work at the same jobs and be paid roughly the same now, because much of the work that needs to be done is not manual. We pay other people (often in other countries) to do the manual parts -- both genders do. Thus, the feelings of empowerment that women feel, and the feelings of disempowerment that men feel, are inextricably linked to the unbelievably rapid shifts in technology that have happened since the mid 19th century.

MRAs, Redpill men, etc are displacing their anger onto women but really they are angry about the entire constellation of change that has upended modern society in developed and developing nations. That's why RP, extreme feminism, SJWs etc are all just spinning their wheels -- they're not talking about what needs to be talked about, and that is the vast and unintended effects of technology in every aspect of our lives, everyday, at virtually every moment.

[–]HighResolutionSleepMen have always been the primary victims of maternal mortality.4 points5 points6 points 9 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

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I'm not going to waste a bunch of time or effort responding,

Yeah like it's a debate sub or anything.

just going to point out a. you could stand to provide some source material as well and b. I have never seen you so much as even acknowledge the terrible things said and done by the MRM, can you?

Typically those terrible things are feminists either lying or citing places like the red pill instead.

Can you watch that vid and tell me Karen Straughn is wrong about the circumstances of women getting the vote? Or will you just continue to ignore all these things and keep attacking feminism, the behavior that makes the MRM so sick and weak in the first place?

So I take it you won't address anything I said.

And I'm not going to spend an hour watching feminist YouTube propaganda. What did ol' Karen say?

[–]girlwriteswhat1 point2 points3 points 9 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

I said that the majority of women during the suffragette movement didn't want the vote. This, insofar as it can be ascertained, is true. People like Garrett just don't like it.

Even Garrett's argument was not necessarily that I was WRONG about that fact, but that that fact should not have mattered.

Basically, he argued that if a minority of a population wants a given right, they should get it. That's not a matter of me getting history wrong, it's a matter of him disagreeing with the decisions that were made back then based on the particular fact.

He also takes issue with my refusal to say WHY women might not want the vote, when I have frequently provided the reasoning of anti-suffragette women:

1) politics was considered a dirty, partisan business, and women (particularly women activists) felt they could get more accomplished by retaining their position as nonpartisan and uninvolved in the political process--they could appeal to both sides of the aisle to get money for schools or shelters or charities etc if they were removed from partisan politicking

2) women anti-suffragettes considered the vote not just a right but a responsibility, and they claimed they had enough to do

3) they trusted their men to vote in their interest

4) they felt it would pit women and men against each other

5) they were worried that equal rights across the board would mean giving up privileges and exemptions women enjoyed

6) they felt that the franchise was unnecessary in terms of women having a voice in public life and in politics

Of course, he has to "refute" my arguments about women's suffrage, because they completely undermine his narrative regarding how all men have always had the vote, and despite women ALWAYS wanting and deserving the vote, those dastardly men just kept refusing to give it to them because penis.

And how did suffragettes finally convince a lot of conservative women to stop objecting to women's suffrage? By telling them that politics is a dirty, partisan business, and a woman's graceful touch was just what was needed to clean it up. In other words, they appealed to conservative women's sense of responsibility, rather than their desire for privileges and rights.

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What's shadier? An organization that takes in millions of dollars peddling a model of domestic violence (Duluth) that has even been discredited by one of its founders?

Or an organization exploiting the googlability of "White ribbon" to direct people to a website that is prepared to tell people the truth about domestic violence, operated by the woman who opened the first battered women's shelter in the world?

Oh, and the UN, who made the decision to force Erin to hand over the domain, officially endorse Duluth as their model of domestic violence.

One of the two originators of the model, Ellen Pence, has gone on to more recently say:

"Speaking for myself, I found that many of the men I interviewed did not seem to articulate a desire for power over their partner. Although I relentlessly took every opportunity to point out to men in the groups that they were so motivated and merely in denial, the fact that few men ever articulated such a desire went unnoticed by me and many of my coworkers. Eventually, we realized that we were finding what we had already predetermined to find.”

Duluth is the most widely used model in the world and is embraced by the UN. Organizations using this model get billions in government funding and private donations. Despite the fact that it is completely bogus.

More than this, Angela Moore Parmley, Ph.D., from the Department of Justice, wrote in “Violence Against Women,” Vol. 10, No. 12, 2004, p. 1424, “We have no evidence to date that VAWA has led to a decrease in the overall levels of violence against women.”

So basically, a piece of federal legislation that codifies Duluth and results in men being refused help when they are abused by their partners (male or female) and women being refused help if their partners are women, has done nothing to reduce violence against women. I wonder why? Perhaps because Duluth is bogus, and therefore prevention and treatment measures based on it are ineffective?

But yes, taking advantage of google-fu to direct people to more factual information is the "shady" thing. Raking in billions of dollars a year by discriminating against men, gays and lesbians by promoting a false narrative that demonizes men isn't shady.

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[–]foreignergrlThe Bluest Pill-1 points0 points1 point 9 years ago* (3 children) | Copy Link

Where did you get the idea that Paul Elam is the leader of the MRM?

I didn't mention Paul Elam. Why did you think I was referring to him if he's not a leader?

Where did you get the idea that the MRM has or even needs a leader?

I didn't say it needs one, but are you arguing that it doesn't?

This is like saying "Feminism is despicable because its leader, Andrea Dworkin, is terrible."

This is a debate sub where porn footage passes as evidence that all women cheat and approve of cheating. You could say that, if you find that Andrea Dworkin was terrible while she was alive, but it wouldn't be correct to do so. I'd argue that while she was very influential in the late 70s and 80s, Feminism precedes that. You could try to compare what you have today in terms of MRM leadership to Betty Friedan and Gloria Steinem (who also had a publication), but you would be unsuccessful, as these women didn't incite violence against men. I'd also say Feminism today is bigger than its leaders and that's not the case with the MRM, which is still vastly unknown.

[–]Forgetaboutthelonely3 points4 points5 points 9 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

I didn't mention Paul Elam. Why did you think I was referring to him if he's not a leader?

Because it's such a commonly used criticism, even though it can so easily be debunked.

I didn't say it needs one, but are you arguing that it doesn't?

the MRM needs a leader the same way feminism has a leader, They don't.

say that, if you find that Andrea Dworkin was terrible while she was alive, but it wouldn't be correct to do so. I'd argue that while she was very influential in the late 70s and 80s, Feminism precedes that.

and republicans freed the slaves. But that doesn't mean every black person should vote republican. Shit changes. Feminism is no different.

You could try to compare what you have today in terms of MRM leadership to Betty Friedan and Gloria Steinem (who also had a publication), but you would be unsuccessful, as these women didn't incite violence against men.

I'm not sure what you're saying here. No "leaders" of the MRM have incited violence against men either.

I'd also say Feminism today is bigger than its leaders and that's not the case with the MRM, which is still vastly unknown.

Gee, could that possibly be because of the constant silencing by the feminist movement?

[–]foreignergrlThe Bluest Pill0 points1 point2 points 9 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

Because it's such a commonly used criticism, even though it can so easily be debunked.

How would you go about so easily debunking the "myth" that Paul Elam is one of the most important, if not the most important, leader of the MRM?

the MRM needs a leader the same way feminism has a leader, They don't.

Feminism did have and still have leadership. I gave you two names of the past, and Gloria Steinem is still active, but today feminism is bigger than its leaders - this is true, it's not a insult. There are several organizations working for women's issues and there are many more, and I never heard of them.

No "leaders" of the MRM have incited violence against men either.

Paul Elam incites violence against women.

Gee, could that possibly be because of the constant silencing by the feminist movement?

It's a statement of facts, not an attempt to silence anyone. The MRM is still mostly an obscure movement, which most people outside reddit never heard of. Perhaps it will change with the release of the documentary on it, but it hasn't changed yet. I'm not so sure why you took this as attempt to silence the MRM.

[–]Forgetaboutthelonely1 point2 points3 points 9 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

How would you go about so easily debunking the "myth" that Paul Elam is one of the most important, if not the most important, leader of the MRM?

By simply stating that the MRM does not have a leader. Yes, He is a figure. But so are people like /u/girlwriteswhat AKA, Karen straughan. Erin pizzey, Warren Farrell and many others.

I mean, How would you argue that people like valerie solanas, gloria steinem or andrea dworkin aren't the most important figures of feminism?

that it's "bigger" than them? The MRM exists outside of what paul elam does as well. So why is it that they can't be considered leaders, but he can?

Paul Elam incites violence against women.

ahh, I'm assuming you're talking about this https://www.avoiceformen.com/mens-rights/domestic-violence-industry/october-is-the-fifth-annual-bash-a-violent-bitch-month/

a satirical article he wrote in response to http://jezebel.com/294383/have-you-ever-beat-up-a-boyfriend-cause-uh-we-have

i mean, It pretty openly says this at the beginning of the article.

It's a statement of facts, not an attempt to silence anyone. The MRM is still mostly an obscure movement, which most people outside reddit never heard of. Perhaps it will change with the release of the documentary on it, but it hasn't changed yet. I'm not so sure why you took this as attempt to silence the MRM.

The documentary is out.

This is what happened.

https://heatst.com/culture-wars/calgary-screening-of-the-red-pill-canceled-and-reinstated-the-next-day-following-complaints/

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calgary/red-pill-movie-mens-rights-controversy-issues-1.4033326

http://www.news.com.au/finance/business/media/dendy-cancels-screenings-of-the-red-pill/news-story/396bd2c28948e2b31a75412eda75e1d5

Feminists ACTIVELY tried to shut it down and silence it. THIS is why the movement is obscure.

[–]the_calibre_cat7 points8 points9 points 9 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link

[–]foreignergrlThe Bluest Pill-1 points0 points1 point 9 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

[–]HighResolutionSleepMen have always been the primary victims of maternal mortality.6 points7 points8 points 9 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

[–]the_calibre_cat-1 points0 points1 point 9 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]HighResolutionSleepMen have always been the primary victims of maternal mortality.1 point2 points3 points 9 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]the_calibre_cat0 points1 point2 points 9 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

"Is" is present tense of the verb to be, not to do. X is a deadbeat dad. He doesn't do deadbeat dad.

Assuming you're actually arguing in good faith, no the semantics don't exactly work out, but yes... he can "do" deadbeat dad. In that case, those that "do" deadbeat dad usually "do" by not doing, ironically, but a man can indeed become an abstraction that is largely viewed negatively by not doing anything.

The point stands, though, it his his actions or inactions that define him as a being that contains value - it is not his humanity.

Feminism cannot allow men to be people...

How do they do that?

Well, they don't really, other than ensuring that a constant torrent of narrative to that effect is pouring from their minions in the enterprises of thought. Otherwise, though, men do the heavy lifting, coupled with women's inherent utilitarian view of men. People are programmed not to, essentially.

[–]HighResolutionSleepMen have always been the primary victims of maternal mortality.5 points6 points7 points 9 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

I do not support automatic shared custody

Why yes, I do think that men's investment in marriages should be considered disposable in family court.

the "right" to financially abort children

Why yes, I do think that men should be held responsible for women's reproductive choices.

and their never ending quest for a redefinition of rape

Why no, I don't have the ability to differentiate feminists from MRAs.

I also despise their paranoia regarding false rape accusations

Why no, I don't think that the power women have to casually destroy men's lives with the point of a finger is a problem.

tendency to incite violence against women.

Why yes, I am going to impute violent tendencies upon MRAs even though there hasn't yet been a single instance of it happening on record.

I honestly can't wait until someone who identifies as an MRA snaps and kills a bunch of women. We'll be two decades cleaning up our image before anyone ever listens to us ever again. That's how incredibly the stacked the deck is against men.

It is so stacked that Eliot Rodger, a non-MRA misanthrope who wrote a manifesto that details how he hates everyone and who killed mostly men in his rampage is to this day cited as an example of MRA violence against women.

Just wait until it actually happens for real. It'll be decades.

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[–]5th_Law_of_Robotics-1 points0 points1 point 9 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]CepheidVoxgirl btw0 points1 point2 points 9 years ago (7 children) | Copy Link

[–]AloysiusC1 point2 points3 points 9 years ago (6 children) | Copy Link

[–]CepheidVoxgirl btw1 point2 points3 points 9 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link

[–]AloysiusC1 point2 points3 points 9 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

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[–]AloysiusC2 points3 points4 points 9 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

In contrast, some of the MRAs I have met have been very attached to the idea that women are, as a whole, incapable of self control and logical thinking.

Firstly, that's anecdotal and secondly, that isn't even remotely comparable vilification.

Both sides are valid ideas and both sides can be misused. Do you agree?

In theory, yes. But in practice, it's much harder for MRAs because we don't have a bias to draw support from.

I don't see those people who do so as feminists proper.

I will paste in a very apt response by Karen Straughan:

So what you're saying is that you, a commenter using a username on an internet forum are the true feminist, and the feminists actually responsible for changing the laws, writing the academic theory, teaching the courses, influencing the public policies, and the massive, well-funded feminist organizations with thousands and thousands of members all of whom call themselves feminists... they are not "real feminists".

That's not just "no true Scotsman". That's delusional self deception.

Listen, if you want to call yourself a feminist, I don't care. I've been investigating feminism for more than 9 years now, and people like you used to piss me off, because to my mind all you were doing was providing cover and ballast for the powerful political and academic feminists you claim are just jerks. And believe me, they ARE jerks. If you knew half of what I know about the things they've done under the banner of feminism, maybe you'd stop calling yourself one.

But I want you to know. You don't matter. You're not the director of the Feminist Majority Foundation and editor of Ms. Magazine, Katherine Spillar, who said of domestic violence: "Well, that's just a clean-up word for wife-beating," and went on to add that regarding male victims of dating violence, "we know it's not girls beating up boys, it's boys beating up girls."

You're not Jan Reimer, former mayor of Edmonton and long-time head of Alberta's Network of Women's Shelters, who just a few years ago refused to appear on a TV program discussing male victims of domestic violence, because for her to even show up and discuss it would lend legitimacy to the idea that they exist.

You're not Mary P Koss, who describes male victims of female rapists in her academic papers as being not rape victims because they were "ambivalent about their sexual desires" (if you don't know what that means, it's that they actually wanted it), and then went on to define them out of the definition of rape in the CDC's research because it's inappropriate to consider what happened to them rape.

You're not the National Organization for Women, and its associated legal foundations, who lobbied to replace the gender neutral federal Family Violence Prevention and Services Act of 1984 with the obscenely gendered Violence Against Women Act of 1994. The passing of that law cut male victims out of support services and legal assistance in more than 60 passages, just because they were male.

You're not the Florida chapter of the NOW, who successfully lobbied to have Governor Rick Scott veto not one, but two alimony reform bills in the last ten years, bills that had passed both houses with overwhelming bipartisan support, and were supported by more than 70% of the electorate.

You're not the feminist group in Maryland who convinced every female member of the House on both sides of the aisle to walk off the floor when a shared parenting bill came up for a vote, meaning the quorum could not be met and the bill died then and there.

You're not the feminists in Canada agitating to remove sexual assault from the normal criminal courts, into quasi-criminal courts of equity where the burden of proof would be lowered, the defendant could be compelled to testify, discovery would go both ways, and defendants would not be entitled to a public defender.

You're not Professor Elizabeth Sheehy, who wrote a book advocating that women not only have the right to murder their husbands without fear of prosecution if they make a claim of abuse, but that they have the moral responsibility to murder their husbands.

You're not the feminist legal scholars and advocates who successfully changed rape laws such that a woman's history of making multiple false allegations of rape can be excluded from evidence at trial because it's "part of her sexual history."

You're not the feminists who splattered the media with the false claim that putting your penis in a passed-out woman's mouth is "not a crime" in Oklahoma, because the prosecutor was incompetent and charged the defendant under an inappropriate statute (forcible sodomy) and the higher court refused to expand the definition of that statute beyond its intended scope when there was already a perfectly good one (sexual battery) already there. You're not the idiot feminists lying to the public and potentially putting women in Oklahoma at risk by telling potential offenders there's a "legal" way to rape them.

And you're none of the hundreds or thousands of feminist scholars, writers, thinkers, researchers, teachers and philosophers who constructed and propagate the body of bunkum theories upon which all of these atrocities are based.

You're the true feminist. Some random person on the internet.

[–]CepheidVoxgirl btw1 point2 points3 points 9 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]AloysiusC1 point2 points3 points 9 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Title	Women, what's your opinion on the men's rights movement
Author	CoolLad
Upvotes	5
Comments	145
Date	May 24, 2017 11:13 AM UTC (9 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/PurplePillDebate
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/PurplePillDebate/comments/6d1gvh/women_whats_your_opinion_on_the_mens_rights/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/PurplePillDebate/women-whats-your-opinion-on-the-mens-rights.267929 https://theredarchive.com/post/267929

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