Q4BP: Are there any measures to better deal with paternity fraud that you'd support?

shoup88 · 2017-01-03T22:31:06+00:00

I agree with your first two measures. The father's right to know trumps the wife's right to "privacy". The idea that telling the father would cause "unnecessary harm" is ridiculous, IMO. It's protecting the mother, not the family.

I agree with the second measure as long as the context is clearly defined: he had to have actually been deceived, as in he was under the impression the child was biologically his. If he knowingly raised another man's child from birth, then he should be responsible for that choice.

I'm less partial to the third measure. Too much government intervention, too expensive - especially when the cases of paternity fraud are very low. And what if a man didn't want to know? He shouldn't be forced to.

Fourth measure wouldn't work, IMO. Too difficult to prove intention, and again seems unnecessarily expensive for how low it actually happens.

Personally I think that men who are suspicious should privately do those mail-in DNA tests.

wtknight · 2017-01-03T22:43:02+00:00

I agree with this. In my opinion, a man who is not truly the father, and who believes that he is, having to financially support a child is a harm at least as equal as the violation of a woman's privacy.
I agree with this too. A man shouldn't ever have to support a child that he was deceived to believe was his own, whether it was intentionally or unintentionally.
Absolutely not. I would refuse to pay for a paternity test for my own child, and I don't want to pay taxes to fund other people's paternity tests.
You're right. It would be very difficult to prove that it is intentional. I think the percentage of paternity dispute cases that are intentional are likely extremely low anyways. It's the type of thing you're much more likely to see in a soap opera.

Battle-Scars · 2017-01-04T00:57:11+00:00

In Cali mandatory newborn screening is done at birth and looks for 58 disorders/conditions. The cost is $104 paid by the state. It would be simple to add paternity/DNA test to that requirement. Takes all of the awkward out of the "what, you don't trust me" conversation. People would get used to it just like they did with seatbelt laws.

LSTW1234 · 2017-01-03T23:53:03+00:00

Agree
Agree, unless it can be proven that he knew the child wasn't his but agreed to be the legal guardian anyway, and then later sought to absolve himself of child support obligations.
Not practical or necessary.
I don't support criminal punishment, but I support recuperation of damages via civil suit if intentional deceit can be proven. That has actually happened before - see Hodge v Craig, in which the Tennessee Supreme Court ruled in favor of a man who was "intentionally deceived" and awarded him compensation in the amount he had paid in child support.

In general though, I think men who are concerned about paternity and/or don't want to support a child should get a paternity test before allowing themselves to be listed on the birth certificate and/or before taking on a "fatherly role." I think that alone would resolve most of these issues, particularly for unmarried couples, in which the presumed father is required to sign an "acknowledgement of paternity" form in order to be considered the father.

currentissuesofme · 2017-01-03T23:55:06+00:00

Change policies on disclosure. If a medical professional finds that the man is not the father, it could be considered an issue of his dignity and livelihood rather than the mother's privacy and he would be informed.

No, medical privacy rights should be essentially absolute.

Allow men to use DNA evidence to get out of child support obligations, regardless of whether he acted in a fatherly role. This would mean no longer using the fact that he was deceived as a reason to give him obligations.

Yes, very much so.

Automatically test paternity at birth, before putting the father's name on the birth certificate. This would cost money, but it would virtually eliminate paternity fraud altogether and get rid of any need to deal with it after the fact (so no more questions of disclosure and child-support, eliminating the need for measures 1 and 2).

I would love this. It would surprise me if it ended up being a net money-saver. However some people will probably fuck up the system by refusing.

Punish women who engage in paternity fraud in some way. This isn't an option I really give much thought to since it seems difficult to prove that it was intentional, but I've heard some people suggest it so I'll include it here.

I more or less mirror your opinion. You should be punished for fraud, but proving intent beyond a reasonable doubt would be pretty much impossible.

sublimemongrel · 2017-01-04T01:49:54+00:00

I see no problems with 1-2, not sure I'd agree with 3, maybe with an "opt in" system or something but I can't imagine every couple even wants this. As to 4, if you can prove it's intentional -- just like with every other c/a for fraud -- civil suits. Not jailtime.

Edit: frankly I'm really surprised 2 isn't already a thing. Are you sure this is true of most jxs?

[deleted] · 2017-01-03T23:47:41+00:00

Automatically test paternity at birth, before putting the father's name on the birth certificate. This would cost money, but it would virtually eliminate paternity fraud altogether and get rid of any need to deal with it after the fact (so no more questions of disclosure and child-support, eliminating the need for measures 1 and 2).

Why would I support this? So my health insurance premiums can go up when insurance companies are mandated to pay for this?

shadowrangerfs · 2017-01-03T23:49:25+00:00

I'd make 2 laws.

No man can be forced to pay child support for a child that has been proving not to be his biologically through a DNA test. If he is already paying support then he has the right to stop paying. He DOES NOT have the right to get back any money that he has already paid.
Any man who is paying or has been ordered to pay, has the right to a DNA test AT ANY TIME? However, they don't have the right to have the same child tested multiple times unless it can be proven that the first test was somehow tampered with or that the results were falsified. If the mother refuses to bring the child for the test 3 times then any current child support order is terminated.

I'm sure there are flaws to my idea. We'll work them out as we go.

OfSpock · 2017-01-04T00:02:40+00:00

Unless it is specifically agreed to, the biological father should support the child. If it comes out later (a few years or so, not days) that a man is not the biological father, he should retain the rights of fatherhood (visitation if he is attached to the child) but not be responsible for further monetary support. He should be refunded any paid child support by the biological father, should he be located.

No automatic testing, I don't want to pay for that.

[deleted] · 2017-01-04T01:26:43+00:00

I definitely support 1 and 2.

I think the man that is claimed to be the father should be given the option to put his name on the certificate, or have a DNA test to make sure the child is his. However, standard DNA tests every time would be to expensive.

Perhaps it should be discussed with the mother beforehand whether there are multiple possible fathers before she has the child? If she claims only one man can be the father and it turns out that the kid isn't his there sould be consequences.

darksoldierk · 2017-01-04T02:26:27+00:00

I agree with 3. What can I say? I'd rather know if the child is mine before I had the chance to bond with the child.

purpleppp · 2017-01-04T03:26:57+00:00

I'm not TBP, but I think #1 is pretty tricky. I don't think I would support requiring disclosure in every case. As a general principle, is an entity required to report every potential fraud it detects, even though the fraud might not be related to the function it performs (healthcare in this case)? I'm not sure how these routine tests work, but if requiring disclosure has the effect of discouraging mothers from doing such tests, then the harm might outweigh the benefits. Perhaps we can have a more nuanced policy or treat it in a case-by-case basis.

give_me_shinies · 2017-01-04T10:29:51+00:00

Every actual scientific study ever done on paternity fraud, in multiple cultures and time periods, finds it to be very rare. It's rare even among men with high levels of paternity uncertainty (i.e., even men who think there's a good chance they're not the father, are the father the vast majority of the time).

I can agree with 1 and 2, 3 is overkill. If you want a paternity test, pay for it yourself. I don't see how 4 can be implemented.

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rulenumber303 · 2017-01-04T16:31:26+00:00

I could handle a paternity screening program if the liars and the idiots who fuck them ("but she's so hot! moral character? that's not important, she's so hot!) were the ones held responsible for paying for it. As in the screening is made part of the birth registration. The registrar of births would take a birth registration form and some blood... if there were doubts about the paternity but the couple have discussed it the couple could both sign that there were doubts and pay the actual cost of their testing upfront. If the couple did not do that and a discrepancy between the registration and the result was found, then they'd each get billed their estimated share of an equal cost with all other such couples of paying for the entire cost of the program. Everyone else, the vast majority whose kids are the children of precisely who the birth registration says? No testing cost for them.

It just really irks me. I don't mind paying for a lot of socialized measures but this one irks me. People should be held personally responsible if they are the liars or idiots an entire screening system must be put in place to find and save from themselves.

lollygagyo · 2017-01-03T23:08:33+00:00

no. 1: It's tricky. From a purely emotional standpoint, I think the man should know, yes. It's only fair. When I step back and think from a big picture perspective and really imagine that situation...It's harder.

Say a man has been raising a beautiful kid for 8 years as if he/she was his own. Say his wife genuinely thought that he was the father. Say there is a lot of very real love in this family.

seems like it would do a lot of unnecessary damage to the father, the child and the mother, to be told this. So, I'm torn. I also doubt that more than 25% of men in this situation would stop financially contributing to the child's life -- that child is going to feel like their child, after playing parent for so long, so I'm not sure what difference knowing is going to make.
no 2: Nope. Disagree. If you act as a father to a child you have assumed that responsibility. Don't fucking take this on lightly. It's a kid, not a t-shirt that can be returned to the store.

If there's mega-deception going on, then maaaaybe I could get on board with this. But I just see it as being too hard to apply.
no 3: Nope. Doesn't seem like something a lot of families would be on board with -- for religious reasons, if nothing else, some groups would be against this one. Mandating it would interfere with freedom of religion. Could get on board with it being the default if there was an ''opt-out'' box that could be ticked.
no 4: No. Like you said -- too difficult to prove whether or not it was intentional.

Title	Q4BP: Are there any measures to better deal with paternity fraud that you'd support?
Author	dakru
Upvotes	5
Comments	158
Date	January 3, 2017 10:11 PM UTC (9 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/PurplePillDebate
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/PurplePillDebate/comments/5luwma/q4bp_are_there_any_measures_to_better_deal_with/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/PurplePillDebate/q4bp-are-there-any-measures-to-better-deal-with.270845 https://theredarchive.com/post/270845

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