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CMV Being manipulative and even getting caught is more attractive to women than simply being nice

winndixie · 2016-05-03T06:30:20+00:00

If "caught" you can laugh it away. Casual examples: (Context doesn't matter I'm saying how you can play off the situation, you take her...

winndixie

May 3, 2016

5 upvotes

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Post Information

Title	CMV Being manipulative and even getting caught is more attractive to women than simply being nice
Author	winndixie
Upvotes	5
Comments	205
Date	May 3, 2016 6:30 AM UTC (10 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/PurplePillDebate
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/PurplePillDebate/comments/4hm16p/cmv_being_manipulative_and_even_getting_caught_is/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/PurplePillDebate/cmv-being-manipulative-and-even-getting-caught-is.274828 https://theredarchive.com/post/274828

Comments

[–]HigHog9 points10 points11 points 10 years ago* (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]EmilyCharland 7 points8 points9 points 10 years ago (199 children) | Copy Link

[–]disposable_pants8 points9 points10 points 10 years ago* (73 children) | Copy Link

[–]shoup88Report me bitch6 points7 points8 points 10 years ago (48 children) | Copy Link

[–]disposable_pants4 points5 points6 points 10 years ago (7 children) | Copy Link

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[–]shoup88Report me bitch5 points6 points7 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]OncleJulian 1 point2 points3 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]EmilyCharland 1 point2 points3 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]wattwattyOld and reddish6 points7 points8 points 10 years ago (30 children) | Copy Link

[–]shoup88Report me bitch2 points3 points4 points 10 years ago (29 children) | Copy Link

[–]wattwattyOld and reddish5 points6 points7 points 10 years ago (28 children) | Copy Link

[–]shoup88Report me bitch2 points3 points4 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]cookiebootz1 point2 points3 points 10 years ago* (26 children) | Copy Link

In conversations about romantic relationships and what traits people like in potential partners, it's reasonable to include physical attraction as a given. Co-specifying the presence of physical attraction along with every other preference is just not how anyone, man or woman, has this conversation. It has nothing to do with cognitive dissonance and everything to do with the fact that we generally understand some of the basic common criteria others use for partner selection.

What kind of women are you into? Ones that you're physically attracted to? Well, duh. What else? Brunettes maybe? Oh do you mean you're into literally any woman with brown hair even that snaggletoothed old lady picking cigarette butts off the ground, or do you mean you especially appreciate brown hair on a woman who's also otherwise attractive to you? Make sure you specify she can't be a drug-addicted, ragingly racist convicted violent criminal who hates your guts and makes you miserable because otherwise I'll assume you'd be into that woman too as long as she's a brunette.

These kinds of assumptions aren't even restricted to conversations on partner selection, they apply to conversations on any kind of preference, really. If I ask you what kind of food you like and you say Italian, it wouldn't be reasonable for me to assume you equally prefer expensive artisan pizza and some takeout spaghetti someone threw in the dumpster yesterday just because they're both Italian foods.

Maybe you're confusing conversations about how physical attractiveness alone isn't always sufficient get someone in the door to mean that physical attraction isn't necessary to get someone in the door?

[–]shoup88Report me bitch2 points3 points4 points 10 years ago (25 children) | Copy Link

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[–]disposable_pants3 points 10 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

I'm not sure why men do that.

Because men are expected to be sexual creatures, and it's still acceptable in the mainstream for men to say that a woman's body makes her sexually attractive (see all the complaints of objectification). Any locker room, radio show, or sitcom will feature guys commenting on women's bodies. Society is starting to push back on this, but men still face little to no criticism for other men if they casually say a woman on a magazine cover has a nice ass.

Meanwhile women commenting on men's bodies is still largely taboo. Women expressing their sexuality is still often seen as slutty, and despite a bit of pushback here women still criticize each other for expressing physical preferences. "Good girls" don't talk like that. Instead, women talk about safe, non-physical qualities like confidence and a sense of humor.

Women are pressured not to say exactly what they want, so they don't. Because men face no such pressure they do say exactly what they want and are confused when women don't do the same.

[–]shoup883 points 10 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]disposable_pants5 points 10 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]shoup881 point 10 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]disposable_pants3 points 10 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]shoup882 points 10 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]cookiebootz1 point2 points3 points 10 years ago (16 children) | Copy Link

[–]wattwattyOld and reddish3 points4 points5 points 10 years ago* (10 children) | Copy Link

So, I get why you might say that, but...

I do not think for a second that women are being dishonest when they say they like kindness. I don't even think they are deluding themselves (who doesn't like kindness?). It has been mentioned elsewhere that liking =/= attraction. I don't expect that /u/cookiebootz or /u/shoup88 would necessarily accept that as given, however obviously true I think it is, so it probably doesn't matter much. So, what do I mean?

The point is that women don't specify physical attractiveness as a necessary but not sufficient condition (I do understand the difference/distinction) because they don't consider non-physically attractive men as men. I do not specify that I require my choice in a mate to be human, as I consider that a given. Similarly, women do not list physical attractiveness as a bona fide requirement for attraction because they don't see unattractive men. It is enough to use the noun "men" alone to represent the pool of realistically possible mates, where what is meant is "men meeting some minimum level of physical attractiveness." Men don't think this way. Therefore, when we hear a litany of preferences (nice, intelligent, funny), we construe those - at some level - to be the "entrance requirements." In reality, they are the fine discriminators.

[–]shoup882 points 10 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]wattwatty1 point 10 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

I think that ugly men are still men. Just like I consider very old men, severely disabled, ED sufferers, etc to be men. But no, they are not my ideal mates.

It is very telling (i.e. I think it proves my point) that you immediately listed these asymptotic examples. You didn't say, e.g., "I consider the plain-looking gawky dude that is often at <name public place you frequent> to be a man." Instead, you went extreme. Nothing wrong with that, but it does say something.

When a man doesn't explicitly state that his preferred partner is under 65, are we to assume that you don't consider older women human? Or is it that age is not a factor for you?

I guarantee you that lots of men under 30 take a look at women 65 and older every single day and evaluate them for potential partner-hood. Sure, almost all 65-year-old women are quickly dismissed as not viable by almost all 25-year-old men, but they are women all the same. We always look and evaluate. So, age is a factor, but it is just another factor.

[–]shoup882 points 10 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]cookiebootz1 point 10 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]wattwatty1 point 10 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]cookiebootz1 point 10 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

You know that Sir Mixalot song that goes 'I like big butts (on women I already find attractive)'? What about the Queen one, 'Fat-bottomed girls (who meet a basic standard of attractiveness) make the rockin' world go round'? Beastie Boys: 'All I really want is girls (but not literally any female, only girls I think are attractive)'? No? Me neither, it's because that's not how those songs go.

And this article about common male fantasies, gathered from survey responses from 700+ men, see how some of the top results are 'Giving/receiving oral sex but only with an attractive partner,' 'Having sex with 2 women at once but only if they're both attractive', 'Having sex with someone who is not my partner but only if they are attractive'? No again? Because that's not what they say.

[Ctrl+f "hot tomboys" = 0 results] (http://www.askmen.com/answers/dating/31637.html)

[Ctrl+f "hot nurses" = 0 results] (http://www.truthaboutnursing.org/news/2006/aug/24_fantasy.html)

Ctrl+f "hot redheads" = 0 results

Ctrfl+f "hot" "pretty" "attractive" = 0 results

"R/askmen, do you like smart girls?"
-"Yes, I like smart girls."
-"Yeah, of course."
-"Smart is great."
-"Intelligence is a nice bonus, but kindness, tact, and sweetness matter most."
-"I like smart girls and I cannot lie..."
-"I prefer smart women."
-"YESSSSSS"
-"The only serious relationships where I've considered marriage were with intelligent and ambitious women."

R/askreddit, what are the most important traits you look for in a woman?
-"confidence and not looking towards others for validation and compliments"
-"Independence."
-"I love a woman who reads a lot."
-"Reasonableness: #1."
-"Their ability to care.. and I mean really care about other people and how other's feel."
-"A sense of humour and some pubic hair."
-"Smart, cultured, opinionated, someone who can make me smile genuinely."

There's basically no end to the stuff I could find that would not exist if you were right, and you've done nothing except repeat yourself to prove your point.

[–]wattwatty1 point 10 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

And this article about common male fantasies,

You might be best served to read the article and try to understand what is reported in the table. It is a table of the open-ended responses provided by the men in the study, but it is not a catalog of every one of those responses. Rather, it is a binned set of those responses, grouped under "titles" that describe the response. The complete catalog would require (assuming all the men provided at least one response (the journal article is behind a pay wall, so who knows)) at least 717 rows. You are invited to count the rows in the table. Not coincidentally: The 3 authors of the study are 1 PhD (obviously the PI; a Google Scholar search confirms) and 2 people listed with BSc as their qualification. It is apparent they are the grad students (perhaps at the time of the work, undergrads, having graduated later) who did the work. They did the data binning and analysis. They are women. In all, this part of your response is meant to be snarky, over-specific parsing. But, you fucked it up by not reading/understanding what you linked.

"R/askmen, do you like smart girls?"

That's a specific question. Specific, responsive answers were given. I do not think that is what we are talking about.

R/askreddit, what are the most important traits you look for in a woman?

Yeah, OK, I'd agree this question/thread is more to the point. You're right: Many of those responses seem to elide the "physical attractiveness" question. However, I am confident in saying that every single one of them is a bald-faced lie (assuming they were proffered by men). You can choose to believe otherwise if you wish, nevertheless, they are all lies if the adjective "most important" is taken at face value. If you want, you can construe my statement as sexist wrt men: I am saying they are flat-out lying, whereas women have perfectly good, structural perceptual reasons to claim things like this.

[–]cookiebootz1 point 10 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

This is a table of the open-ended responses provided by the men in the study, but it is not a catalog of every one of those responses.

Nope, that’s a table of the closed questions.

Here’s the paper. It says “In the final version, 55 closed questions were included in the questionnaire and participants were asked to rate them… (Table 2).”

But you don’t even need the paper to confirm that, since the article prefaces the table with: “First, participants read and rated 55 statements describing different sexual fantasies….Here are the 10 statements the highest percentage of men in the study said they fantasized about[.]”

(assuming all the men provided at least one response the journal article is behind a pay wall, so who knows)) at least 717 rows.

They didn’t. About 30% of them did. These responses were analyzed in a separate section.

Not coincidentally: The 3 authors of the study are 1 PhD (obviously the PI; a Google Scholar search confirms) and 2 people listed with BSc as their qualification. It is apparent they are the grad students (perhaps at the time of the work, undergrads, having graduated later) who did the work.

Is there a specific point you wanted to make with this information?

They did the data binning and analysis. They are women.

Nope. “A total of 372 persons...described their favorite sex fantasy. Analyses of these written descriptions followed the guidelines of Merriam [47]. The first step, category construction, was conducted by two raters (1 male and 1 female). “

Your critiques boil down to:

The table is a representation of binned open-ended responses
The qualitative analysis was done by women
2/3 of the names on the study are women, the PI is a PhD and the other 2 have BScs.

The first two are wrong and the third is of undefined relevance. None of them provide any indication that you might be right in claiming men consistently specify physical attractiveness as a requirement when talking about what traits they like in women.

That's a specific question. Specific, responsive answers were given. I do not think that is what we are talking about.

Earlier, someone asked “Does every statement about other attractive traits need to include this qualifier?” You said yes. Are you taking that back or can you explain why these statements about other attractive traits are exempt from needing to include a qualifier?

However, I am confident in saying that every single one of them is a bald-faced lie

You got a thread with hundreds of responses and all you can do is call them liars? I want to make sure I’m 100% clear that this is the strongest defense you have for your claim.

[–]bornreddMarried Red Pill Man0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

[–]cookiebootz2 points 10 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Because it isn't the kindness that's attractive.

According to...you? What's your expertise on what I think is attractive? If some women say "I think kindness is an attractive trait in a potential partner" and you have to say "No you don't, let me explain what you really think is attractive" in order to maintain your perception on this subject, you might want to reconsider your perception.

If he was a kind but financially poor ugly dude, it wouldn't be attractive.

If I were to rank a poor, ugly, kind person and a poor, ugly jerk on a scale of how attractive I found them, the nice guy would outcompete the jerk. Would I disregard everything else about him and sleep with him because of that? No, and that has not for one second been part of my point. A lot of yall are only making arguments that apply to idea that kindness alone can overcome all other factors and make someone attractive enough to have sex with, but none of us are actually saying that.

[–]bornredd1 point 10 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]cookiebootz1 point 10 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

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[–]fuckingbetayetrpIsTooHard0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago (7 children) | Copy Link

[–]shoup88Report me bitch1 point2 points3 points 10 years ago (6 children) | Copy Link

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[–]bornreddMarried Red Pill Man0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

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[–]EmilyCharland 2 points3 points4 points 10 years ago (10 children) | Copy Link

[–]disposable_pants1 point2 points3 points 10 years ago (9 children) | Copy Link

Being cocky isn't the opposite of nice, that's being mean.

Being cocky usually involves poking a bit of fun at people. Generally this is done in good humor, but it can definitely be perceived as mean. It's a fine line, and sometimes it thins all the way down to how well you know the person.

in general most girls won't have sex with you unless they like you a bit.

There are countless examples of men beating their wives/girlfriends and not only having them come back, but being able to attract more women. Look at how women were tweeting that they would like to have Chris Brown beat them after he beat the hell out of Rhianna. Nice isn't a requirement, and it doesn't build much (if any) sexual attraction.

What niceness does do is build comfort. Comfort is great for relationships (to a point), and that's by and large what women mean when they say niceness is attractive.

[–]demerera0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link

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[–]demerera1 point 10 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]disposable_pants1 point 10 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]demerera1 point 10 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]disposable_pants2 points 10 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

I'm talking about why women who know the man they're seeing has beat women before, yet still goes out with him. See "Radicalizing the Romanceless:"

I had a patient, let’s call him ‘Henry’ for reasons that are to become clear, who came to hospital after being picked up for police for beating up his fifth wife.

...

Or to spell it out very carefully, Henry clearly has no trouble attracting partners. He’s been married five times and had multiple extra-marital affairs and pre-marital partners, many of whom were well aware of his past domestic violence convictions and knew exactly what they were getting into. Meanwhile, here I was, twenty-five years old, never been on a date in my life, every time I ask someone out I get laughed at, I’m constantly teased and mocked for being a virgin and a nerd whom no one could ever love, starting to develop a serious neurosis about it... And here I was, tried my best never to be mean to anyone, pursued a productive career, worked hard to help all of my friends. I didn’t think I deserved to have the prettiest girl in school prostrate herself at my feet. But I did think I deserved to not be doing worse than Henry.

A woman who's going on a first date with Henry is not in an abusive relationship. She's making a decision that on paper seems absurd -- getting involved with a guy who beats women. Why?

[–]EmilyCharland 0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

Well, alright, but that's beside the point isn't it? Being cocky is usually attractive, but it's also usually not mean.

Having been on the receiving end of abuse, I should let you know that I didn't, and most of us don't, come back because him beating me up turned me on. Most of us just want to try to make it work and lack the will to leave. I was also an insecure teenager and didn't think I could get any better, and thought people would call me a slut etc. So I put up with it, but I didn't like it.

Same thing with Chris Brown. Those girls would put up with his BS behavior (hypothetically put up with it) cause they are obsessed with him, cause he's rich and famous.

I'm not saying niceness ranks very high on the list of things that will get you hookups, but it does help, and it is much better than being an asshole.

[–]disposable_pants1 point2 points3 points 10 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

I didn't, and most of us don't, come back because him beating me up turned me on.

I'm not suggesting that abused women go back to their partner because getting beaten turns them on. I'm suggesting that the type of abusive partner that women are going to stick around with to try and work things out is going to be someone they're highly sexually attracted to (for completely normal reasons). Note how you thought you "didn't think I could get any better." It's not so different from a man who will stick around a crazy woman who ruins his relationships with friends and family simply because she's hot.

Those girls would put up with his BS behavior (hypothetically put up with it) cause they are obsessed with him, cause he's rich and famous.

What about non-famous men who are known to beat their partners, yet are still able to get new dates? Why would a woman -- who's not already in an abusive relationship -- start dating a guy who's beat a partner in the past?

I'm not saying niceness ranks very high on the list of things that will get you hookups, but it does help, and it is much better than being an asshole.

I agree that it's better to be nice unless there's a reason not to. I'm just pointing out that if it's more than possible to get laid while being a total asshole, the effect of niceness is not large enough to seriously consider.

[–]EmilyCharland1 point 10 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

I'm suggesting that the type of abusive partner that women are going to stick around with to try and work things out is going to be someone they're highly sexually attracted to (for completely normal reasons).

Well duh, but I'm not sure what your point there is. When you have power over someone, no shit, you can do whatever you want to them. I agree with you, and I think applies for men and women. But that doesn't mean the actual beating was attractive, just that he was sexually attractive enough to make his other shortcomings irrelevant. Then again, I did eventually leave that guy cause I couldn't stand how toxic and mean he was.

What about non-famous men who are known to beat their partners, yet are still able to get new dates? Why would a woman -- who's not already in an abusive relationship -- start dating a guy who's beat a partner in the past?

I have not observed that happening.

the effect of niceness is not large enough to seriously consider.

Maybe not for a famous person like Chris Brown. But for an average joe, I think its a significant factor.

[–]MagicGainbowKeepin' it real, havin' a feel1 point2 points3 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]OncleJulian 0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

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[–]cookiebootz0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]EmilyCharland 0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

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[–]ppdthrowawaiRed Pill9 points10 points11 points 10 years ago (32 children) | Copy Link

The worst thing is when a guy is being nice to you JUST because he wants something. We aren't idiots, we know when that happens, and it's infuriating.

Not to pick on you specifically but this is commonly held BS logic that men AND women are guilty of. EVERYBODY is being nice to you because they want something. We are taught as children to be nice BECAUSE we will be rewarded. You don't get dessert unless you ask politely. It even extends into our adult interactions. In any good service position, you are nice because you are marketing a pleasant experience. On the other end, you are nice because you want good service. What about altruistic nice? People are nice because it releases feel good chemicals in your brain. There is no genuine nice.

The only thing that makes your example different is that its sex and men shouldn't want sex because thats bad. What you are REALLY mad about is that their intentions aren't clear. I say cut the bullshit, acknowledge that everybody likes and wants sex (hardly an unreasonable belief), and get on with our lives.

I bet your boyfriend knew he wanted to fuck you within seconds of meeting you. Go ahead and ask him. Would that change your opinion of him? Probably not because that wasn't a deal breaker and shouldn't be.

[–]shoup88Report me bitch5 points6 points7 points 10 years ago (28 children) | Copy Link

[–]ppdthrowawaiRed Pill3 points4 points5 points 10 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

Yeah I agree that is an important distinction but what you're describing is being a straight up liar vs honest people. Most of those types have alpha qualities, are liars, and experience success despite their shitty qualities.

What we usually end up discussing here is nice, ugly guys who are high in beta qualities vs attractive people. The whole point is that you're doing a disservice to nice, ugly guys by telling them being nice is attractive. Most of them are at a point where they tried that and it isn't working. Being attractive is attractive and typically their barrier to relationships, not how nice they are. The don't need to double down on their beta qualities that they already have in spades.

Both sides of "nice guy" debate truly don't understand each other. You have women saying, "why did he lie to me?" and an equal number of guys saying the same thing. Do you truly believe that all these guys are trying to trick these women? The men are mad because they've invested heavily into one potential mate only to learn their investment has amounted to nothing. Why would you invest ALL your time and energy into a casual fuck? It makes no sense. Its like if you saved up for 3 years to buy lottery tickets only to lose it in an instant. Naturally, that would probably piss you off a little. Not saying it was a good idea or it was right to do, but it's a pretty human reaction to a shitty situation for both parties.

[–]shoup88Report me bitch6 points7 points8 points 10 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

I'm not sure I understand what you mean by straight up liars vs honest people. Do you mean that you think most guys who treat everyone poorly experience success? I don't agree with that. Businessmen I've met in high-powered position are generally nice to the people around them. Swimming With Sharks is a trope, not something I've seen IRL.

I personally think that being physically attractive is an obvious prerequisite to being attractive overall, and that the debate is not nice and ugly vs mean and hot. Rather, it's nice and hot vs mean and hot. In that case, nice and hot wins.

I understand that in the "mainstream" world of advice, people might interpret "Nice people are attractive" to mean that being nice is the only thing you need. But don't people on PPD and red pill users know better?

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[–]MagicGainbow1 point 10 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

If I'm talking to a group of good looking guys, the nice quiet one is the one I'm into.

Being nice and quiet will get you know where in a bar/club scenario though.

I don't think I'm unique in this point - lots of girls associate loud and cocky with douchebag

So do guys, i'm talking about guys that are more banter/playfulness

You'll attract a certain type of girl that way for sure, but not everyone and not even the majority.

I wish people would stop saying this, i've attracted every type of girl with it, the tired cliche that trp/trp style behavior only attracts one type of woman is bullshit wishful thinking that just isn't true.

The fact is when it comes down to it looks come first and niceness does not build up sexual attraction, sure it is need for a ltr relationship but it does not work in bars compared to more aggressive strategies.

The only times i've seen it work it was clear the guy was sealing the deal due to looks and he could have acted far ruder and still achieved the same outcome.

The phrase goes nice guys finish last for a reason.

[–]shoup881 point 10 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]MagicGainbow1 point 10 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

I don't know how to reply when you tell me I'm not attracted to what I say I am. There's not really any meaningful discussion to be made when you say your personal experience is right and my personal experience is wrong.

I never said that, I would point out though that your experience is atypical, most women do not zero in on the quiet guy at a bar scene, the quiet guy gets ignored(unless he;s very good looking)

You also keep moving the goal posts.

I'm trying to clarify things as you seem to be taking the most literal interpretation of the word, i'm talking about a guy that's cocky/not nice/playful, basically a guy not taking things seriously, not worried that he'll fuck up/offend her

When you're arguing that playful banter is somehow the opposite of nice

It's the opposite of the 'nice' were are discussing, here's an example of what I mean;

Nice - ''Hi, can I buy you a drink? (proceeds to spend night being polite/non-push etc.)

Asshole/mean/playful/etc. - ''Saw you staring across the bar, i'm out of your league but if you buy me a drink i'll hang out for a bit''.

I'd done exactly as women suggested men should do and been nice, polite, non-pushy and it gets you nowhere, being aggressive in my wants and not taking her too seriously has gotten me actual successes as i'm sure it has other trpers.

Honestly there should be a sticky of topics that aren't going to be resolved, this is one of them, the very basis for many trpers is that they were honestly nice before and got shat on for it hence the anger.

[–]shoup882 points 10 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

It sounds like a big issue here is that words have different meanings to us, as silly as that sounds. You characterized playful banter as something a not nice person would do - I don't agree with that all. You can be playful without negging a person.

When I say loud and cocky sounds like a douchebag to me, that quote is exactly what I mean. If someone came up to me out the blue and said he was out of my league, that's basically an immediate turnoff.

Like I said, I'm sure there are women who respond to that, but I'm in no way a unique snowflake when I say douchebags are unattractive.

I think that you interpret "nice" to mean a pushover, grovelling, constant compliments. When I say "nice", I mean asking questions, smiling, making jokes that aren't at the woman's expense.

The word "nice" carries so much baggage, but I use it to mean smiling, happy, playful approach.

[–]MagicGainbow1 point 10 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

You can be playful without negging a person.

Wheres the fun in that?

If someone came up to me out the blue and said he was out of my league, that's basically an immediate turnoff.

Well we've already established your tastes are not the norm/clash with the bar scene, and I was trying to convey a joking tone(which is hard to do in text), and like most women i'd bet if the guy was good looking enough you'd let it slide.

Like I said, I'm sure there are women who respond to that, but I'm in no way a unique snowflake when I say douchebags are unattractive.

True, the fact is many guy have seen women express your same sentiments and yet actions-wise they still fuck them and the quiet one gets nothing.

I think that you interpret "nice" to mean a pushover, grovelling, constant compliments.

I don't, that's not nice that's just spineless.

When I say "nice", I mean asking questions, smiling, making jokes that aren't at the woman's expense.

It's what I mean too, that was my way of being and it never led anywhere, cancelled dates and ''ljbf's''.

The word "nice" carries so much baggage, but I use it to mean smiling, happy, playful approach.

I would say most people think this but some women have definitely tainted the whole association.

The problem is here all you've said most trpers have heard from other women who have not followed through on their actions, even if what you say is the truth (know way of truly knowing) it doesn't alter the reality that being aggressive and getting yourself noticed (even through means considered negative by some) works far better for attraction.

As I said before words are useless to terpers, any fool can say shit on reddit when they don't have to follow through/prove it.

[–]shoup882 points 10 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]MagicGainbow1 point 10 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

your perception is reality,

My perception is the reality for many men, i'm sure there are some that don't see things that way.

and mine is outside the norm.

That's because what you express as your preferences I, and others have not seen repeated enough to be worth imitating, in fact the opposite, the quiet nice guy does not work for many men, it can work if they are good looking but then quiet/nice isn't really a factor just a bonus for ltr's, as others have argued, being nice creates comfort which kills lust.

We're just going back and forth. Unfortunately this is what happens when an argument is based on personal experience. You say "This is what I know, so it must be universal" and then I say the same thing. Neither of us is going to convince the other.

I've said all that twice now in replies to you...but i'll say it one more time, all you have is words which i'm sure the majority of trpers have heard before...and subsequently seen that the speakers actions do not match up.

I'd add that I never said anything was universal, only that it was the experience of many men/or most trpers.

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being genuinely nice is attractive.

Can you completely define genuinely nice acts in a objective manner that doesn't overlap with other types of niceness, and leave no room for, "It's genuinely nice because I say it is"?

Getting caught isn't attractive.

Why does it work? Why do women so vehemently deny one thing, when it would be fair enough to just accept that some horrible women do it but they themselves don't. When instead they feel attacked when one of their group is accused? I will be the first to admit that yes, there are abusive and lawbreaking undesirable men out there, incels and losers, and it is SMART of women to act as if AMALT. I wouldn't blame them, because I know I'm not one of them. It's not even prevalent to me, and I don't even relate. But why do women deny ONE THING so much, if it doesn't apply to them? Maybe because...deep down..it's a LITTLE true.

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Its not just unattractive guys who use kindness to get laid. Average men do it. Hot men do it.For example, if I'm nice to women who aren't my type they become interested in me because I'm better-looking than them and better-looking and fitter than most men in the world, but the women who are in my league or above my own league don't really fall for just that lol, so the solution that I've found is to ignore all of the women who don't fall in my league because it gets tiresome seeing these chicks trying to get my attention just because I held the door for them. Nowadays I only hold the door for hot women and for men, and the same goes for any other pleasantries.

Concerning attractive women. I've found that being a shitlord with them is a lot more effective than being nice to them.

??? Hot girls be crazy

[–]EmilyCharland 0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago (18 children) | Copy Link

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[–]EmilyCharland1 point 10 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]OncleJulian2 points 10 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

That's because stuff happens to women. Women aren't looking for a boyfriend. Because men approach them. Women aren't looking for x guy on tinder. The x guy approached them first. Women aren't looking for casual sex. They just happen to have casual sex. Its a wonder how women manage to not end up pregnant at the age of 14 because if you listen to what women say, it seems they lack agency.

Most women have casual sex and then call it a fling. A summer affair. A relationship that lasted a few hours(LOL) and they make all sorts of excuses to justfiy their actions.

Asshole game works with asshole girls. Asshole girls are usually fucking hot... and being an asshole is hella fun. Win-win for both the girl and the guy. There are all sorts of girls and all sort of game to get them but I have a very deep fondness for goth chicks, emo chicks, rave chicks, sluts and cam girls and what not. Asshole game tends to work with them.

Hmm, so the navy SEAL guy fucked her as many times he wanted and then he dumped her. Yes, he dumped her by being abusive and now he's probably having fun with some other woman. Seems like he's the real winner.

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it's because I want to be nice. I try to help people (men and women) when I can.

Glad to hear it :)

some women beloved I was nice to them to fuck them, almost nothing piss me off more (I am a direct guy) and then manage to complain when I changed my behavior.

Were you being especially nice to them? Never pretend to be something you aren't, because that's what get's you sniffed out. Players always try to be nice to us so we can tell when someone is being inauthentic.

Secondly... If you are nice to a really good looking girl... it may not be enough to get her to find you attractive, due to the differences in your physical attractiveness to each other. That's just the way things are.

Well, if you are being nice, don't instantly ask me out as soon as you've done a favor for me. That will make me think you did the favor for all the wrong reasons.

[–]louplopNeeds your food0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

Were you being especially nice to them? Never pretend to be something you aren't, because that's what get's you sniffed out. Players always try to be nice to us so we can tell when someone is being inauthentic

Why would you suppose I pretend to be someone I am not ? I don't remember if I was specialy nice to them. I don't have a nice-o-meter. I react depending the person and/or the situation. If someone is nice to me I will be even nicer, in those cases I took it as an insult and act according to my caracter ... badly.

Secondly... If you are nice to a really good looking gir

My behavior is the same with good looking girl or not. I don't change depending on the girls look nor am impressed by beautiful women. I even tend to put less effort in strangers good looking women because I know someone else will help them. My time and my actions are more useful for people who really need them. Some women fall for me for reason I don't know and they sometimes happen to be good looking. good for me and I am confident enough to know they are better looking than I am but still happy to be with me.

Well, if you are being nice, don't instantly ask me out as soon as you've done a favor for me. That will make me think you did the favor for all the wrong reasons.

I answer to that after another answer for you. Know that if I had to ask you out. I would do it when I would feel it, it's not a fucking strategic plan, it should be at least a little bit natural. And if you would have doubt or whatever reason, you have a mouth to express what you think and why you think this way ;)

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Yeah, but here's the thing. There are very few women who are attractive and they're coveted by Alphas. If I don't approach and quickly try to escalate I'm probably going to be dragged along while she bangs other guys.

I can only figure out if she is into me if she responds positively to the escalation, and its not like I can go up to a woman and seal the deal the same night I meet her, lel. If she's attractive it takes me a week or two before she does anything sexual with me. While I wait I'm doing shit with other girls lol, so if a particular girl doesn't put out I don't get depressed.

And if I can't get the girls I want I go home and fap instead of settling like most other guys would do.

Oh, but those shitlords attract very attractive women and that's what I want. You see, I don't want a significant other. I don't want a best friend. I want to get fucked by hot women, and I'm not just talking about looks. There's a certain look and personality I go for, the trashier she is the better, like hot rich girls pretending to be poor, you know. There is not even a need to wine and dine me, I'm easy!

..but only for certain girls.

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[–]darkmoon091 point2 points3 points 10 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

I wouldn't say that women particularly like it when they get cheated on or when they "catch" their man flirting/checking out other women or reciprocating women's flirts and smiles, they want commitment after all, but make no mistake it does demonstrate value and women like knowing that their man is desired by other women because it reinforces the notion that their man is a catch, as someone who's known a few alphas in relationships one common thing that I notice is even when he's "caught" the women will throw a tantrum over it but soon enough all is forgiven..these women know that their alpha is a desirable alpha and so consequently, while they may not like it, they prepare themselves for any potential infidelity. In my observations women are willing to put up with a lot of crap from high-value men because high-value men are hard to come by. There's a saying that many women would prefer to be one of the king's many mistresses rather than the wife of the devoted peasant. I believe this is true.

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