Columbia Professor researching dating dynamics: "Guys were more likely than ladies to request dates out of their league"

Drenzard · 2015-09-05T13:28:00+00:00

I identify as a ForeverAlone Woman and I'm tired of the influx of FA guys who believe that all FA women just have unreasonable requirements and are holding out for the captain of the football team.

If you actually identify as an FA woman then you should be aware that your namesake subreddit actually had to ban all males from pursuing relationships with the women on that sub simply because they were flooded with so many requests, yet none of the women there were interested in pairing with low-status males. No such restriction exists in the FA sub for men.

Just how many FA men exactly have you contacted and asked to date? I'm sure the number is 0 because almost all FA men would be more than thrilled if any woman wanted to give them a chance.

TheGreasyPole · 2015-09-05T13:34:05+00:00

Of course many men will fuck anything, but we are speaking only about relationships.

Argument destroyed in the final sentence.

We never, ever, claim that "any woman can get a relationship any time she likes".... Only that she can have sex any time she likes.

So... FA men cant get sex or relationships.... And FA women can get sex, but not relationships and that is the fundamental asymmetry.

Because FA men are very concerned about the sex they experience this as an extremely debilitating problem only they suffer.

FA women are very concerned about the lack of relationships but they experience this as an extremely debilitating problem they also share with FA men.

It's just not symmetrical.

Like many sexual problems.

Women fail to see this however because they extremely commonly assume the men's objectives are the same as theirs, and therefore symmetrical, when they are not.

That's the problem you've got here.

And no matter how many times you tell a FA male "well, I got laid several times last year but am still unhappy because I didn't get a bf" he is never going to sympathise because he didn't get the relationship OR the sex.. And he really wanted that sex you got that he didn't.

Carkudo · 2015-09-05T21:13:19+00:00

It certainly seems that all women are already in pursuit of only the top men, so as 1/10 man I'm equally unlikely to date a 1/10 woman as I am a 10/10 woman. It follows, then, that pursuing a 10/10 woman is a better use of my time and effort.

dakru · 2015-09-05T13:18:07+00:00

In summary: People tend to pursue partners of similar physical attractiveness with men more likely to pursue those out of their league.

How do you think the fact that women are much less likely to pursue anyone in the first place fits in to this? Does the article mention that? I read it but I might have missed it.

I'm thinking of something like the OkCupid post on looks, which says, basically, "women rate men low but message them anyway". I think this is misleading because most women don't message at all (or at least they message significantly less than men), so the messaging patterns of the subset of women who message do not necessarily say anything about women as a group.

SirNemesis · 2015-09-05T18:22:37+00:00

Your summary of the article is somewhat misleading. The article merely said that guys were less likely to stick to their own league.

"Males are less affected by how attractive they themselves are than females," Lee said in a telephone interview. Guys were more likely than ladies to request dates out of their league.

5th_Law_of_Robotics · 2015-09-05T15:55:56+00:00

Aren't men more likely to pursue a partner period?

Drenzard · 2015-09-05T14:22:01+00:00

No shit.

1) Women don't request dates usually.

2) Women lead guys on and string them along, naturally guys will think that means they can get a date with them.

3) Guys are used to rejection and therefore will put themselves out there more.

I wanted to post this because I identify as a ForeverAlone Woman and I'm tired of the influx of FA guys who believe that all FA women just have unreasonable requirements and are holding out for the captain of the football team.

Are you fat?

Of course many men will fuck anything, but we are speaking only about relationships.

RP theory is that men are the gatekeepers of commitment, so yeah that one's gonna be tough for chicks. Usually the ones holding out turn 30 and buy a cat.

TrialsAndTribbles · 2015-09-05T18:39:34+00:00

As a female with a normal bmi all you have to do is make an okcupid or match.com account and sit there waiting for someone in your town to message you. Women have it so easy sometimes.

ThorLives · 2015-09-05T18:06:37+00:00

Can you provide a primary source for this study? I'd like to see it. I was able to find a video with Dan Ariely which talks a little bit about this, but he didn't talk about the male versus female differences in this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uOV3Yyv6VUc

I also couldn't help but think of a few potential problems with the study. First, when it comes to requesting dates, men are far more likely to request a date from a woman than vice-versa. I couldn't help but wonder if men are just distributing their "bets" (i.e. their date attempts) differently than women. Women might be afraid of rejection, so she "plays safe" by only requesting dates from guys "in her league", thereby minimizing her chances of rejection. This might not be the guy she really wants. He might be a "guy I sort-of like" rather than a "guy I really want". Her pattern might be different based on men asking her, though, because when a guy asks her, she's already gotten past the rejection issue because he's already saying that he likes her. A person's fear of rejection will affect who they go after. For example:

A girl "5" asks these men out on a date: a guy "5" and a guy "4" because she wants to maximize her chances of success and minimize her chances of rejection.

A guy "5" might ask a whole bunch of "6"s and "7"s out on a date. Each of them might have a 10% chance of success, but if he asks out 10 of them, then he has a decent chance of getting a date with at least one of them.

In fact, this pattern would probably me most pronounced with men who ask out a lot of women. If a guy has no fear of rejection at all, he might ask out a bunch of women who are all much better looking than he is, each with a 5% chance of success, and he occasionally gets lucky. It's worth noting that when it comes to asking out lots and lots of people - almost all of those people are going to be men. Meanwhile, the guys who are shy about asking out women are probably going to behave a lot conservatively - asking out women who are in their own league. (I used to be like this for a very long time - extremely nervous about asking out women and fearful of rejection. Not surprisingly, I really only asked out women that I was almost certain would say yes, which meant that I was always going for women at or below "my league".) If this is the case, it's not so much about males and females having unrealistic expectations, but it's about being shy and fearful of rejection versus being bold and unafraid of rejection. Men are more likely than women to be bold and ask out a ton of women. And bold people are more likely to attempt to date out of their league. Of course, if someone is bold and unphased by rejection, they are not likely to complain about getting shot down. So, it's possible that there's one group of men who are unafraid of asking out women who are "out of their league" and there's another group of men who are more cautious and fearful of rejection and when those guys get rejected (potentially by women who are "in their league") they complain about women and their hypergamy. This would be two different groups of men, though, and we might forget that fact and assume that the guys complaining about rejection from women are the same guys hitting on those women who are way out of their league.

Secondly, it's generally acknowledged that women's appearance matters more than men's appearance. If men's attractiveness depends less on physical traits and more on personality traits (many of those traits being a bit of a mystery to many guys - funny? confident? kind? honest? faithful? dependable? etc). Let's assume a fictional situation where a man's attractiveness is based 40% on looks and 60% on personality, and a woman's attractiveness is based 70% on looks and 30% on personality, then we would expect that men wouldn't necessarily need to date "in their league" when that league is based on "physical attractiveness". Essentially, "physical attractiveness league" and "actual league" are two different things - though there's obviously some correlation between the two. In other words: HotOrNot is determining people's league based on physical attractiveness. If a woman's total attractiveness is 70% based on looks, then you can determine her league pretty well based on pictures. If only 40% of a man's total attractiveness is based on looks, then determining his league is a little more difficult based on pictures - yes, there's a certain level of correlation between looks and league, but it's weaker than it is with women. This also puts men in a more uncertain position in figuring out their own league, and raises questions about the validity of the comparison. That's also why "Compared to females, males are more influenced by how physically attractive their potential dates are, but less affected by how attractive they themselves are, when deciding whom to date." is a complex statement - it can be interpreted as "guys are delusional and uncalibrated" or it could mean that men know that their attractiveness level is based less on looks and therefore they should use their own looks as a guide less often than women should. I'd also be curious how accurate guys are about their own appearance. Since guys get less feedback from women than women get from men, they have to rely on their own self-evaluation rather than external feedback, so it's possible that guys are also somewhat in the dark about their own attractiveness level.

Also, doesn't this also provide evidence for the concept of SMV? I know some people like to act as if SMV doesn't exist at all, and it's just some made-up fictional concept created by RedPillers. These are usually the same people who hate the whole "she's out of my league" talk, as if it's some fictional self-limiting belief that people have latched onto for no good reason. But, if a guy manages to convince himself that all the "she's out of my league" stuff is just some dumb self-limiting belief, he gets hit with the accusation that he's being irrational and unrealistic.

[deleted] · 2015-09-06T01:05:20+00:00

Plenty of attractive women can't hold down a guy... even if they go for men below their league. But you all, ''FA'' women get laid easily. You can even go for men who are above your league. Most men can't do that.

Lose weight, I guess? There are plenty of thirsty dudes out there. Maybe stop going for the Brad Pitt next door?

[deleted] · 2015-09-05T13:27:15+00:00

In summary: People tend to pursue partners of similar physical attractiveness with men more likely to pursue those out of their league.

How would somebody objectively know what "league" they're in?

Guys are more likely to request dates, period. Sure, a lot of guys will request dates from seemingly unattainable women since "the worst thing that can happen is that she'll say no" (a common aphorism).

ianturpiesmoustache · 2015-09-05T14:10:48+00:00

I do agree that men are more likely to punch above their weight when it comes to looks, but who wouldn't prefer to date their ideal rather than their equal? I'm attracted to guys who are smarter and funnier than me, and would probably make me look like a bridge troll if I was stood next to them for long enough (in my eyes, anyway). So, you know, let them try if they want. Good luck to them.

MrCheddarCheese · 2015-09-05T14:14:28+00:00

So again TRP is proven wrong. Women care about attractiveness more than any other criteria. Her own attractiveness dictates what level of attractiveness she'll accept in a partner, but it's still the salient factor.

Also, the study doesn't touch on how many men attempting to date above their league were successful. I mean, asking out a "hot" girl doesn't really tell us anything about dating dynamics (other than the fact that men who do this are hoping she'll say yes.)

whystoppnow · 2015-09-05T18:41:34+00:00

This is true because A) to not ask her out is to reject yourself and is unhealthy. B) Men play the numbers game. C) he's just as likely to be rejected by someone his league or lower.

[deleted] · 2015-09-05T21:58:38+00:00

Do what men do, if you feel that way marry a man from a different culture. I struggled with the opposite sex too so I got myself an asian man. There are a few who grew up in western countries and due to lack of options will settle (I am talking about east asian. Indian and pakistani men will almost always be very religious and their families won't approve of them marrying a white or black woman). Not saying they are unattractive at all, I personally really like them, but most other western women don't and even my husband, who was incel for years, agrees with me. Go for a short, fat, shy or really geeky one. All the conventionally handsome ones with height, social skills and classic good looks will be taken by asian women. They make excellent husbands. Many will feel bound by duty financially to support you and have kids with you and are more likely to be OK with you being a housewife. They also usually have high IQs. My IQ is a little on the low side, but I can be rest assured that my kids have a chance of being smart. There is a downside, most of them a very critical of their families and want them to do the best at everything. I admit, I'm far from this. I'm pretty lax. As long as everyone is alive and we have food on the table and a comfortable home to live in I don't really care. My Husband is extremely blunt with me and he constantly makes fun of my weight and has made other hurtful remarks about my body, so have some other asian partners I have had prior to him. I don't think their culture forbids them from letting women know when they are just fugly. Also, with chinese men, they often won't let you outside for weeks after you give birth to their baby. It's a cultural thing and you have to accept it. I suggest you look online. I met mine on POF. Specify your search results, there are loads of cute asian betas on there looking for a wife.

Title	Columbia Professor researching dating dynamics: "Guys were more likely than ladies to request dates out of their league"
Author	dyingofloneliness
Upvotes	28
Comments	159
Date	September 5, 2015 1:09 PM UTC (10 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/PurplePillDebate
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/PurplePillDebate/comments/3jqo3j/columbia_professor_researching_dating_dynamics/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/PurplePillDebate/columbia-professor-researching-dating-dynamics.279791 https://theredarchive.com/post/279791

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