Resent at being a woman trying to fit into a man's world.

rulenumber303 · 2014-04-26T23:19:23+00:00

Almost every human being ends up failing in some sense. It isn't as if all the dudes in STEM fields have the perfect careers they thought they were going to have. Most of them are doing boring old hack work. They didn't become Albert Einstein or Isaac Newton, they became Bob who works the centrifuge or Joe who measures the core samples.

I mean shit, why do anything at all, unless you're you're just going to be world-class. Let's all go find a tree to sit under and die of starvation.

Or you could just live your life doing what you are best at and anyone who has a problem with that can go fuck themselves... including occasionally having to tell yourself to go fuck yourself if you've started being overly critical. That works pretty well.

purplepill2 · 2014-04-26T23:17:00+00:00

No one is self sufficient... obviously. Men aren't either. "Men" did not design the world. People from before our time did. The men alive now just contribute to the furthering of it. They don't get to claim credit for the work of everyone who came before them based on the fact that they also have a penis. I don't get to claim credit for working with uranium because Marie Curie also had a vagina. Men don't get to take credit for the constitution because other penis-havers created it. Each man and woman is an individual who has to bring their own value to the table.

You are one person. You choose what you contribute to the world, and that's independent of what's between your legs. We have higher cognitive functions and the ability to be individuals and pursue our individual wants and needs. You're not the sum of your genitals.

As long as your pursuits do not harm others, YOU are the only one you have to answer to for what goals you should pursue to gain happiness, to be successful, to do whatever you want. YOU are the one that should shape your life, YOU are the one who should decide what you want, and YOU are the one who's responsible if you fail. Not your vagina. You will probably encounter people that will take your vag into account when evaluating your skills and worth, but you have the option to stay away from situations where that happens.

I don't know you. You might not be smart enough to succeed in physics. You might not be driven enough. Have a good enough work ethic. Have the money for school... Hell, you might not even end up enjoying it. But being a woman has nothing to do with any of that.

All that TRP and RPW crap saying AWALT is bullshit. It's people who are so self centered they can't possibly understand that others aren't like them, or aren't like what they'd expect. What authority does some RPW have to tell you what makes you happy? She doesn't know you at all.

wuboo · 2014-04-27T03:32:18+00:00

Interesting. Not sure why being a woman would stop you from doing physics. Do it because you want to. No one else can make that decision for you. Do you have a mentor or someone in the field to look up to? There are many women in physics who encourage other women to go into science. For example, Professor Burchat from Stanford does amazing work in astrophysics and particle physics, and has won an award for mentoring women in science https://physics.stanford.edu/people/faculty/patricia-burchat. Find someone who inspires you.

roe_ · 2014-04-27T16:24:05+00:00

If you were a man, do you really think it would be easier to do what you needed to to become an elite in any field and make a lasting contribution?

Don't get confused by the fact that most elites are male - they only account for a very tiny percentage of the population either way - the apex fallacy works both ways.

You know what elite men and elite women have in common? They were smart and they did the work.

newguyacct · 2014-04-27T01:02:28+00:00

For every success a man might have accomplished, there are many more failures by other men. Every fulfilled, happy, valued man who worked hard in life is met by an unfulfilled, unhappy, low-valued man who also worked hard. Risks don't always give a return.

Let's say you had an advantage at one thing, A, and a disadvantage at another thing, B. If you were to do A, on average, you would be happy. If you were to do B, on average, you would be unhappy. Now there's that small chance with B that you could be happy, but it's also unlikely. Would you still choose to do B over A? Maybe you only chose B because someone who had an advantage at B convinced you. Or maybe society thinks you should be doing B.

This is why comparative advantage should be encouraged. Instead of what is currently being done which is anyone can do anything 'equally' and if it doesn't seem like that is actually the case, we put more effort to make it so (artificially).

Recognizing your differences and playing to your strengths is a valid strategy.

[deleted] · 2014-04-27T03:44:26+00:00

Well... it's not like the typical male physicist is also qualified to design sewage systems and pave roads. Advanced scientific research, regardless of which gender does it, is only possible in a wealthy society.

There aren't a lot of Afghans and Somalis winning Nobel prizes. Conversely, Watson & Crick's work would not have been possible without the contributions of Rosalind Franklin. And the first computer programmer was a woman.

Edit to add: Last summer I did a desert survival course. We had women in the course and they did just as well as men. I sucked at it. True independence is incredibly difficult. Check out the TV show Naked & Afraid for some extreme examples.

dreckmal · 2014-04-27T13:27:33+00:00

Thing is, we all fail. That is the 'man's world.' Pushing through that fear, right there, is what I was taught being a man is. If that is really the case, you can do it too. 'Man' is the word that gets used. It doesn't make it gender exclusive.

The men in your field have those insecurities too. Make no mistake.

Ultimately, I think you should really consider whether you want a family or a career. You can have both, but having a fulfilling life in both areas will be rough. This is truly unfortunate, because as the woman, it is on you to put the resource into childbearing.

Becoming successful in a given career requires focus, determination, and time. You can supply those things, but can you if you have children?

This isn't to say it is impossible. Just not easy.

Do you want to have a family? How old are you, OOC?

MissPearl · 2014-04-27T13:40:48+00:00

Yeah, the sort of binary and black and white thinking about stuff about where your gender should sort you gets a bit tedious. Obviously nobody fits into neat little boxes. Furthermore, even if you want to devote your life to an immediate family group, kids and spouses don't really give a neatly spaced out piece of work you can devote yourself to- it tends to be a huge dump of time consuming difficulty that's too much for one person alone while the kids are small, tapering out as they get older, and not every adult is needy enough to give you someone you can marry to plan all your life activities around- it's all very good if the guy is delicate or in a literally high stress career (hostage negotiation?), but c'mon, to a certain point it's the daily grind we all have to deal with and if a regular job is beating the shit out of its employees, possibly the problem is that the work place expectations are insane, not that every worker needs a domestic and emotional support specialist living in their home.

Not to mention that the "roles for women" tends to be phrased in terms of playing out an idealized 1950s USA upper middle class LARP, replete with fancy aprons, only we pretend things like the overt subjugation of certain kinds of people (ahem, the darker skinned ones) wasn't happening. Oh, and all the women who ended up working because of their family's poverty, but those don't count apparently. And the fantasy doesn't deal with the fact that there hasn't been a massive technological and social change such that much of the structures that facilitated room for this division are gone- like there's the idea that if you suddenly took women out of the work force there'd be more money for men, but this neglects that a fair percent of them are already disproportionately occupying things like minimum wage (and won't give you full time to avoid paying benefits) gigs.

RPW tends to sell the idea of sacrificing for your family by making it look like you're going to get to do a little light housework and lots of hobby crafts and be beautiful and loved and cherished- and quite frankly, getting to live like a rich person. The problem is, sacrificing generally doesn't look like that. It means things, like taking a shitty job so that you can support someone through grad school or work around the childcare schedule you have. It means not getting to be beautiful (because beauty is expensive to maintain) because the baby doesn't give you time to shower, much less wear nice clothing or work out. It means doing things you don't like, occasionally for people who don't have the cognitive development or perception to feel grateful. And at that point, y'know, sacrifice starts looking like a gender neutral thing and being able to put my hair in vintage rolls, and make cakes and afford to sew as a hobby is more of something my job lets me do. I mean, maybe this is just my experience, but as much as RPW likes the femme-y stuff as much as I like it, the periods when my life most looked like what they support as a lifestyle (eg supporting my man in achieving his dreams or helping my family) were the periods when I had the least time and support to do that.

I'm also deeply suspicious of anyone who will at once sell that a job is nessary and important (eg babies, home tending), but won't actually pay for that shit or do it themselves. Time and time again, discussions on what housewives should do around domestic work and as a part of participating in public life keep flipping back to arguing that these women should be in volunteer roles and if you keep poking, these "volunteer" jobs are typically that pink collar stuff women are paid to do, that ostensibly often libertarian people now want them to do for free, for the good of society, like we were some sort of post currency communist collective. Only having done that from the selfless side of being supportive to family or to a man for the better part of a decade- fuck that noise. I know I like looking after things, but working really is inherently satisfying, and when it isn't they give me that thing called money which I can trade for both security and things that do satisfy me. I know this probably sounds terribly aggressive, but when something is phrased in terms of being paid with fulfillment or doing it for the good of society, it sounds eerily like someone offering to publish my writing "for exposure".

Which may also sound like I'm anti-domestic labour, but that's not the case- I just think that trying to play post war wealth boom white people suburbia is not an accurate reflection of the world we live in today. I think a lot of women are still perfectly happy with sex specific roles- but they get nursing degrees and the like now because even the people who want to "help others", mysteriously also seem to like money and prestige just like men.

And on the flip side, I feel it is horribly sexist to deny the positives of traditionally female spheres to men or demand that men become honorary women to do them. I know amazing male cooks who don't deserve to be kicked out of the kitchen, male nurses who are just as good as female nurses and dads who deserve some sort of medal.

I also think that even if gender gives us certain encoded traits, the diverse nature of the problems in any field mean that a mono-cultured selection pool is going to lead to very similar thinking, and also fails to acknowledge the skut work that also goes into problem solving. Even if women were all inherently nurturing and sacrificing team players, given the low paid, thankless nature of a lot of graduate studies and the sacrifices a lot of the math stuff asks for, you would think that these spaces would be perfect for the "traditional" ideal.

AdmiralVonJackass · 2014-04-27T16:20:43+00:00

If you want to play the games of men, you are going to have to suffer the bruises. You will be hated on and abused, your authority will be challenged, and thieves will grab at your power. Welcome brother.

anotherthrowaway2303 · 2014-04-27T00:47:17+00:00

Redpillers are rather frequently lamenting over how "feminism" is causing women to erroneously change their priorities and escape the fact that women have differing roles to fill.

I don't believe that's the case with many who have a distaste for feminism. I personally don't care for feminism myself. Although feminists claim they want "equality", they don't - in some cases, they want preferential treatment for women at the expense of men.

If they truly wanted equality, they would pay just as much attention to men's issues as they do women's issues. As it stands, however, feminists pay little more than lip service to men's issues at best, and at worst they fail to acknowledge that such issues even exist and/or propagate false arguments as to how men are "oppressing" women (like the wage gap myth, for example).

DevilishRogue · 2014-04-27T16:36:37+00:00

because I'm a woman, having these goals means I'll inevitably end up failing because I'm naturally not suited to them

Your hypothesis is wrong. Men don't do well in these roles because they are suited to them, they do well in these roles because it's the way they gain status. They have no innate advantages over you, the only difference between men and women when it comes to these pursuits is distribution along the bell curve. You don't have the same drive as men to do well (i.e. your status as a woman isn't dependent upon your professional success) but that is no impediment to your actual success. The film "Gattaca" is a good example of what I'm talking about if I'm communicating it poorly.

FortunateBum · 2014-04-27T21:29:52+00:00

You really care way too much about what other people think.

Do what you want to do. That simple.

PenguinLovr · 2014-04-28T07:11:24+00:00

Did you know Ada Lovelace invented the first programming language? When I think about my career, she is one of those prominent figures that sticks out to me. Says to me women are capable of success.

Another interesting thing is that there were women in the past who did phenomenal work in science but their husband's got the credit. Or so I believe. This is due to the fact that back then, people wouldn't take ideas from a woman seriously. But that by no means indicates that women played no role in shaping science, technology, engineering or math. Statistically, there are more genius men than there are genius women. In fact I once desired to be a genius. And now I realize I am not. But it's not because I am a woman. And I do feel that even though I am not a genius I can still affect the world in a positive way.

Today is a GREAT TIME to be a woman. Why would you resent the fact that you are a woman when you are not chained to a stove, and you have the decision to pursue the sciences and make a difference. There is no better time to be a woman if you aspire to be a physicist than right now!

Truth be told, if you are not meant to be a genius you are just human like the rest of us. Its not because you are a woman. It's because success is a rare thing and something were not all entitled too just because we can dream big and have insights on the universe. Unfortunately this is a cold hard truth. And believe me its not your gender holding you back. Sure you're more likely to be a genius if you're a man but the chances are rather slim

Be happy about your brains and your potential. It is not at all affected by the history of human kind. Any intellectual person knows some women are capable of amazing feats in the sciences. Just because most women aren't doesn't mean you aren't. Most men aren't either. Don't be too hard on yourself. But also don't blame your shortcomings on your gender. You have the freedom to do whatever you please with your life. If you were born a man you would still be you, with the same potential to make a difference. You decide your path in life.

Exner2 · 2014-04-27T01:09:19+00:00

I think the argument that men "created" the world we live in is a fallacy. It ignores the enormous contributions of women in virtually every professional field over the last 50+ years, and completely overlooks the vital role of women in raising and educating men (which of course long preceded the entry of women into other areas of the workforce).

Even if you don't agree with feminism or consider yourself to be a feminist, the ideals of feminism became a movement because multitudes of women felt stifled by the expectation that their existence would be defined by their husband and children. Women have had interests and passions outside of the domestic sphere since the dawn of time, but feminism helped to open the door to the possibility that women would be able to pursue their goals outside of the home.

To bring it back to you, this is all to say that you are not the first. While you may be entering into a male dominated field, this is unlikely to raise eyebrows in 2014, and I strongly doubt that you would inevitably fail in your chosen profession because you are "not naturally suited" to it because of your gender. But I understand that the struggle you are experiencing may be largely within yourself. The only advice I would give is to do what you believe will make YOU most happy. If that is choosing to dive fully into a traditional female role, great. If it's embracing a masculine identity, awesome. Or perhaps you may be able to find a middle ground. You will find the path that works for you, just try to listen to yourself first and foremost, and don't worry too much about what some others may think.

Human_v2 · 2014-04-27T02:46:27+00:00

I think it's unusual to see that kind of response although I admittedly don't browse the red pill women subreddit much at all. From what I've seen in the red pill main sub though, generally you can do what you want. If you want to aspire for greatness in your career, good for you. If you want to raise a family, good for you. The difference is feminism tells women they can only be independent career women and to suggest a woman managing the home etc. is pure misogyny.

I think the prevailing red pill opinion is that there is nothing wrong with pursuing a career but don't expect that to make you more attractive to men. What is attractive is what they mention in that thread, femininity etc.. However, I have a feeling (although only a feeling) that being a feminine woman and a successful scientist would probably be immensely attractive to others in your field, not necessarily beyond it.

Tl;dr career success isn't going to be attractive to men in and of itself but I don't see why being feminine and being a good physicist at work have to be mutually exclusive.

anotherthrowaway2303 · 2014-04-27T04:58:37+00:00

and that a woman's primary role that she feels most fulfilled in (according to this post, and to similar sentiments) is to support men in these ventures.

Here's where I disagree a bit.

The role most women feel fulfilled in within relationships is in a supporting role to men. Placing women who desire marriage in a leadership role usually makes them feel resentful or unattracted to their partner.

There's no issue with a woman shouldn't pursue professional success in a demanding career if that's what she desires most. However, if she also wants to marry she needs to be aware of the difficulties associated with it.

I almost feel embarrassed for even trying to go into a largely male dominated career because of the sense that I'm "attempting to be a man".

Well, what do you want? Why do you want to enter this career? What are you planning on doing with your degree? Is it something that will help you feel fulfilled in life? Is it your top priority, or is starting a family more important to you? There's nothing wrong with your choice if you are making a well-informed one and are being honest with yourself.

I'm just plagued by the feeling that because I'm a woman, having these goals means I'll inevitably end up failing because I'm naturally not suited to them.

Men and women develop all sorts of complexes like impostor syndrome while pursuing challenging careers. Your gender isn't going to hold you back, but a lack of initiative, resilience, assertiveness, and networking will. A failure of accountability in the form of dismissing failures as the inability of others to recognize your talents is also a common problem among those that are unable to advance professionally.

If you want to establish a career in physics, genuinely pursue it with passion and dedication.

[deleted] · 2014-04-27T16:29:42+00:00

Despite this, however, I am rather acutely aware of the fact that the world I live in has largely been created and molded by men. I am acutely aware of the fact that almost all of my interests have been pioneered and furthered by men, that the only reason I'm capable of considering a serious career is because men have played a dominant role in creating a world in which it is a possibility

You're over thinking it. Tiger Woods isn't Scottish and either side of his family would be barred from country clubs. He dominated at golf because he focused on the game.

Focus on the game.

Men enjoyed more opportunities than women, that put them in positions to create and innovate while women were barred from doing so. And it wasn't even all men. Keep your head down, work hard, you'll succeed. Even if the other men in your field don't like you, if you develop skills then you'll be valuable to them.

SirNemesis · 2014-04-27T23:51:22+00:00

There's a woman at /r/RedPillWomen who has a Physics degree (PHD, iirc) and is building a career in that.

So no, going into physics is not mutually exclusive with red pill ideology.

[deleted] · 2014-04-29T04:34:10+00:00

Why in the world can't you have a career in Physics, and also a family life, if that's what you want? Why is it one or the other? It's difficult at first when the kids are small, but if you have a husband who is willing to get down in the trenches with you, changing diapers, taking off when the kid is sick, folding laundry - then you can do it too.

Fortunately, surveys show that millenials are much more interested in family life than previous generations. So you've odds are in your favor that you absolutely will find a guy that will be as supportive of you as you are of him.

How do I know? Because "been there/done that". And so did the women I studied with. As have a lot of women, far more than RPW will ever let on. In fact, I don't think they've even taken a look at labor statistics. Employers have to provide female workers, who are nursing, with a clean private room to pump milk during the day. How times have changed!

RPW is toxic if you're debating this issue. Toxic. They'll drag you down with their own insecurities. Just because they can't have a career and family, or don't choose to, does not mean that you can't.

Again, not that there's anything wrong with being a SAHM. If you can afford to (that's another issue).

But I'll tell you right now. Kids aren't little forever. They grow up, go to school, and you find yourself with a lot of free time on your hands. You might consider trying to rehash your career. And it's hard. And HR doesn't take too kindly to moms trying to get back into it. I have some friends that are struggling with this, and find themselves taking jobs way beneath their skill sets.

THIS is why I do STEM outreach. So that girls and underrepresented minorities see that it's more than some nerd stereotype succeeding in these types of jobs. Male dominated, schmale dominated.

Men are not more naturally suited to physics than women. What a bunch of bunk. How many people took that AP Physics class with you in highschool? 5? out of a graduating class of 300? Were you the only girl? Ok. but the % of guys taking that class is what engineers would call NEGLIGIBLE. The vast majority of guys do not do well in physics.

Because it's hard.

It's not a "natural" skill for either gender, although RPs would love to think it is.

You're good at it, though. Seems like it's a natural skill for YOU.

Also- some professional advice, don't get sucked into doing a PhD. The industry is hiring postdocs in a lot of fields now. Industry! (that's a sign that the market has too many PhDs)

Nature ran a 7 piece article on the problems of getting a PhD a few years back. If you're interested I'll see if I can find it for you.

If you'd feel more comfortable doing a science/engineering field that has a negligible gender gap, there are some fields to choose from.

And start reading up on women that have STEM careers and kids. That's who you should be talking with if that is what you want. Not RPW. What will they help you with? Seems like they're relying on scare tactics to reduce the choices that feminists have worked so hard to provide for you.

Also, think of this. You want to have kids. You might have a daughter. How awesome will it be for her to have a great role model right in her own home? One who shows that you can absolutely have it all? Kids and career?

My girls know that I'm both a scientist and an engineer, and they brag about it. They think it's awesome.

[deleted] · 2014-04-29T08:06:25+00:00

I think your basic problem is the idea that you must have an identity.

Identity essentially means a validation of existence quia an individual. At this point it is very helpful to learn some Buddhism or Zen type of stuff that basically says nobody really exists as such.

I mean there is a difference between being a woman, even being a feminine woman and using it as an identity.

RlyORly · 2014-05-01T21:52:57+00:00

I would think of people as men and women only when you want to attract someone, or build relationships. In terms of mental capacity or intellect I don't think there's any big difference.

There was definitely inequality before in that women were not allowed to pursue higher education. So we cannot really know if the historical under-representation of women in science is due to this or 'not being suited'.

IMO - just don't think about gender wars when relating to the career. Do what you like, and rock at it.

[deleted] · 2014-04-27T04:18:02+00:00

I think it's a mistake to get hung up on who "built" the world rather than what power you have to control it. As a woman in the first world you have the same power as men regardless of who built what. So if you want to be a high powered career woman, if that's what you want of your life, there is absolutely no reason not to do it. The only people who might think you're "attempting to be a man" are red pillers and they're a minority even on Reddit. And besides, if you let the opinions of others hold you back, you're just allowing yourself to be weak. No one can hold you back more than yourself.

I can tell you, I grew up in a household where my mum was the one making all the money and doing most of the work, and that's why I am so certain both sides of this coin are misled. I look at the arguments put forth by both red pillers who claim women aren't as capable as men and feminists who claim women are still oppressed in our society and I ask myself - why then is my mum so successful? That is how I ultimately dismiss this stuff on a personal level. As far as I'm concerned it's all nonsense. I just love talking about hypothetical philosophical things.

This gender talk is merely a distraction from the real issue though. Question is, are you as a person powerful enough to follow this path for yourself? Being successful isn't easy no matter what genitals you have, it requires dedication and hard work. I feel a lot of people make excuses for themselves because they can't be assed to put that effort in. If you don't want want to be one of the many people who wishes they were successful without ever doing anything about it, you have to go out there and face the world to make it happen.

A tip from me - if you want to get anywhere in business, I recommend reading How To Win Friends and Influence People and the 48 Laws of Power. Those should teach you all you need to know to rise up in the corporate world.

[deleted] · 2014-04-27T02:55:47+00:00

[permanently deleted]

Title	Resent at being a woman trying to fit into a man's world.
Author	anotherthrowaway2303
Upvotes	9
Comments	56
Date	April 26, 2014 10:54 PM UTC (12 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/PurplePillDebate
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/PurplePillDebate/comments/242alt/resent_at_being_a_woman_trying_to_fit_into_a_mans/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/PurplePillDebate/resent-at-being-a-woman-trying-to-fit-into-a-mans.285823 https://theredarchive.com/post/285823

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