Women’s rights and men’s rights are not fundamentally opposed

EmirikolWoker · 2021-07-08T08:34:13+00:00

Feminism is not synonymous with women's rights advocacy. The latter is an action, the former is an ideology whose foundational principals (class warfare between men and women with men winning, shorthanded as "Patriarchy") are inherrently anti-male when you examine what needs to be true for them to accurately describe reality. Feminists can claim that it's "just about equality", but it's equality based on bigotted assumptions, presuming psychopathy on the part of men as a class.

Egalitarian values, and mens rights advocacy in particular, is innately antifeminist.

For the love of god, stop trying to make this all about being contrary to feminists

The feminist Duluth model is why it's so hard for male victims of female abusers to get access to resources. Feminist researcher Mary Koss is the reason why rape can only be perpetrated by a cisgendered male. Feminist activist Caroline Norton and the tender years doctrine is the reason for the disparity in child custody.

Can you suggest a way to advocate for equality without suggesting that feminists got it wrong somewhere?

not_quite_so_random · 2021-07-08T08:21:23+00:00

Firstly, feminism doesn't have a monopoly on women's rights and thus using the two terms interchangeably is either misguided or disingenuous.

Secondly, the fact that you seem to put the responsibility to unite both women's and men's rights on the rather small and niche men's rights movement, rather than on women's rights movements and feminism, which command billions of dollars to me speaks volumes on your intentions.

Thirdly, a good chunk of the inequalities faced by men today are created specifically by feminism.

irrelevantmoniker · 2021-07-08T09:11:54+00:00

"Women’s rights and men’s rights are not fundamentally opposed"

Tell that to feminists.

It's feminists who historically exiled prominent egalitarians who wanted to discuss male issues and thus created the mens rights movement through their refusal to make common cause on these issues.

It's feminists who lobbied for policy, public perception and widely accepted academic truths to be slanted in a way that was antithetical to the furtherance of mens rights.

It's feminists who censor and shout down mens rights advocacy.

If you believe that mens rights and women's rights are not fundamentally opposed then tell that to the feminists.

Except you can't, because they'll censor and ban you.

MRAs are not the ones with the problem here.

mikesteane · 2021-07-08T07:26:21+00:00

The same systems that fuck over women

And they would be what exactly?

asura227 · 2021-07-08T07:19:32+00:00

Its kinda hard to work with people when they wont correct those of their own group who call for your death. Or at least disassociate from or censure those who openly express those views. Please don't tell me they can't they did it with the T.E.R.F.s. Even if we were to work with them, we would still have to openly discuss the inequalities they created, as well as those they tacitly accepted.. Considering the current state of reddit, feminists are not open to any collaboration outside our complete subservience. Needless to say, that is a non-starter.

Iceman_Hottie · 2021-07-08T09:42:01+00:00

The overwhelming majority of the issues MRM deals with is caused by feminists. You are working on the assumption that what feminists claim is true, whereas if you look "under the hood" you will see that it's anything but true.

Try looking up Cassie Jaye's interviews about her "the Red Pill" documentary, and how she was disillusioned, and then hated by feminists for speaking about her conclusions.

DelightfulFronds · 2021-07-08T09:47:50+00:00

Feminism is largely a motte-and-bailey argument. "It just means equality". No, it doesn't.

Feminism is an -ism. It's not a synonym with equality. It's an ideology that describes the problems and outlines a solution and is fundamentally opposed to the concept of mens rights.

Womens rights, outside of feminism, largely isn't a thing. The entire womens rights movement has been subsumed by feminism.

This whole argument is a dead end and has been done to death.

Reddit1984Censorship · 2021-07-08T10:24:15+00:00

Feminism actively works againts mens rights.

Mysterious-Dirt-6506 · 2021-07-08T07:48:27+00:00

I sure do wish men would defend male spaces.

iainmf · 2021-07-08T10:37:16+00:00

I'm perfectly happy to work with feminists as long as they are happy to work with me and don't insist I become a feminist, and don't insist on a 'ladies first' approach to gender equality.

For example, when it comes to partner violence, feminists insist we have to start from their world view. See Losing the “Gender” in Gender-Based Violence where the author's argue that we must accept 'historical and political ' realities when interpreting partner violence. That is, we have to start with feminist beliefs and ignore evidence to the contrary.

HPUnicorn · 2021-07-08T10:48:47+00:00

In the west (where I live) , Can you name a single right that women are missing that men enjoy.

shit-zen-giggles · 2021-07-08T10:46:32+00:00

The following is a very informed and highly reusable comment by Karen Straughan in response to a feminist who thinks the many blatant sexists among feminists aren't real feminists:

So what you're saying is that you, a commenter using a username on an internet forum are the true feminist, and the feminists actually responsible for changing the laws, writing the academic theory, teaching the courses, influencing the public policies, and the massive, well-funded feminist organizations with thousands and thousands of members all of whom call themselves feminists... they are not "real feminists".

That's not just "no true Scotsman". That's delusional self deception.

Listen, if you want to call yourself a feminist, I don't care. I've been investigating feminism for more than 9 years now, and people like you used to piss me off, because to my mind all you were doing was providing cover and ballast for the powerful political and academic feminists you claim are just jerks. And believe me, they ARE jerks. If you knew half of what I know about the things they've done under the banner of feminism, maybe you'd stop calling yourself one.

But I want you to know. You don't matter. You're not the director of the Feminist Majority Foundation and editor of Ms. Magazine, Katherine Spillar, who said of domestic violence: "Well, that's just a clean-up word for wife-beating," and went on to add that regarding male victims of dating violence, "we know it's not girls beating up boys, it's boys beating up girls."

You're not Jan Reimer, former mayor of Edmonton and long-time head of Alberta's Network of Women's Shelters, who just a few years ago refused to appear on a TV program discussing male victims of domestic violence, because for her to even show up and discuss it would lend legitimacy to the idea that they exist.

You're not Mary P Koss, who describes male victims of female rapists in her academic papers as being not rape victims because they were "ambivalent about their sexual desires" (if you don't know what that means, it's that they actually wanted it), and then went on to define them out of the definition of rape in the CDC's research because it's inappropriate to consider what happened to them rape.

You're not the National Organization for Women, and its associated legal foundations, who lobbied to replace the gender neutral federal Family Violence Prevention and Services Act of 1984 with the obscenely gendered Violence Against Women Act of 1994. The passing of that law cut male victims out of support services and legal assistance in more than 60 passages, just because they were male.

You're not the Florida chapter of the NOW, who successfully lobbied to have Governor Rick Scott veto not one, but two alimony reform bills in the last ten years, bills that had passed both houses with overwhelming bipartisan support, and were supported by more than 70% of the electorate.

You're not the feminist group in Maryland who convinced every female member of the House on both sides of the aisle to walk off the floor when a shared parenting bill came up for a vote, meaning the quorum could not be met and the bill died then and there.

You're not the feminists in Canada agitating to remove sexual assault from the normal criminal courts, into quasi-criminal courts of equity where the burden of proof would be lowered, the defendant could be compelled to testify, discovery would go both ways, and defendants would not be entitled to a public defender.

You're not Professor Elizabeth Sheehy, who wrote a book advocating that women not only have the right to murder their husbands without fear of prosecution if they make a claim of abuse, but that they have the moral responsibility to murder their husbands.

You're not the feminist legal scholars and advocates who successfully changed rape laws such that a woman's history of making multiple false allegations of rape can be excluded from evidence at trial because it's "part of her sexual history."

You're not the feminists who splattered the media with the false claim that putting your penis in a passed-out woman's mouth is "not a crime" in Oklahoma, because the prosecutor was incompetent and charged the defendant under an inappropriate statute (forcible sodomy) and the higher court refused to expand the definition of that statute beyond its intended scope when there was already a perfectly good one (sexual battery) already there. You're not the idiot feminists lying to the public and potentially putting women in Oklahoma at risk by telling potential offenders there's a "legal" way to rape them.

And you're none of the hundreds or thousands of feminist scholars, writers, thinkers, researchers, teachers and philosophers who constructed and propagate the body of bunkum theories upon which all of these atrocities are based.

You're the true feminist. Some random person on the internet.

see also: A list about feminism misandry

Punder_man · 2021-07-08T13:35:22+00:00

I disagree with everything the OP said..
Take circumcision as an example.. this is an issue affecting men which could EASILY be resolved if feminists didn't push back so hard on it..
At the moment doing ANYTHING to a girl / woman's genitals without conclusive medical reasoning is considered "Female Genital Mutilation (FGM) and is widely banned (as it should be) as MRA's many of us just want the SAME protection given to the genitals of women to be given to boys / men..

But anytime the topic comes up you get feminists shouting us down going on and on about how FMG is MUCH WORSE and how DARE we try to say circumcision is anywhere NEAR the same...

Or another classic example.. Family Court / Criminal Court Bias.. women have a clear and distinct bias in their favor when it comes to divorce / family courts.. the courts are more willing to grant the mother full time custody of the kids for example..
Or when a man and woman divorce in the majority of cases.. the MAN is the one whom loses out because he usually ends up having to pay child support, Alimony and on top of that has no legal right to visit / spend time with his kids.

On the criminal court side of things, women are 50% less likely to be convicted of a crime than a man is and even WHEN they are convicted of a crime they get prison sentences that are on 60% shorter than what a man would get for the same crime (Not to mention they are more likely to be eligible for parole than a man would be..

I've heard many a feminist try to defend this as "Because of the Patriarchy" but aside from that weak excuse they don't seem very interested in fighting against the "Patriarchy" here.. maybe it's because they BENEFIT from the situation?

You can claim over and over again that "Feminism is about equality" until you're blue in the face or the heat death of the universe occurs.. but it doesn't make it true..
Too many of us have seen the "Real" side of feminism and the saying "Actions speak louder than words" applies to feminism..
Any time men organize a discussion around issues facing men.. who show's up and protests? Feminists.
Who pulls fire alarms or sends bomb / death threats to the venues to get the event canceled? Feminists..

Which movement has members who think that #KillAllMen is acceptable because its "Just a joke" but would lose their shit if MRA's started #KillAllWomen.. that's right.. FEMINISTS..

But last I checked MRA's don't:

Protest Feminist conferences / events
Send bomb / death threats to venues to get events cancelled
Think that it would be in anyway acceptable to use #KillAllWomen in any sort of joke or as a way to express frustration towards misandry..
Aren't looking to REMOVE rights, protections or privileges from women but are instead only asking to be afforded the same rights, protections and privileges afforded to women.. you know ACTUAL equality shit...

LastRounder · 2021-07-08T10:13:14+00:00

Yes they are not opposed. Though feminists and mra are. Because feminists are feminists.

Vidar34 · 2021-07-08T12:26:10+00:00

While women's rights and men's rights are not mutually exclusive, the feminist movements are most definitely fundamentally opposed to men's rights.

PM_ME_NICE_STUFF1 · 2021-07-08T09:59:07+00:00

I agree with the premise, womens rights and mens rights aren't fundamentally opposed. But the way the current dialogue is going is very discriminating for one side and I can't and won't support that. We should treat people not like members of their group but as individuals. But then we won't get that sweet 50:50 split...

reddut_gang · 2021-07-08T18:51:29+00:00

Lol, no. Your movement has already been alienating half the population since it existed. Prominent figures in your movement hold misandrist views, the majority of the movement ignores or downplays inequality men face, and harasses anyone who tries to acknowledge the inequalities men face. We shouldn't be opposed, but we are, because feminism isn't doing it's job. Feminism thinks that allowing dudes to wear skirts = solving all inequalities that men face. It's ridiculous how little they care, and for every step forward they take, they take two steps backwards with their abhorrent misandry. Y'all would rather spend your efforts trying to come up with a bullshit reason why "kill all men" isn't sexist than to actually help advocate for real, legit, equality. Of course I care about men's rights. I will advocate for equality while taking a shit on a movement that hates us, because why not.

Angryasfk · 2021-07-08T21:04:19+00:00

Either you’re a feminist, or have fallen for the feminist trap.

All this “structures” and other BS!

Firstly the divorce court/custody stuff is fully supported by feminism! They lobby hard to keep things the way they are! The Metoo movement and the guilt by accusation is, likewise promoted by feminism! The double standards on men only clubs and women only clubs, and women only “safe spaces” on campus is, once again, due to feminism! Poor behaviour by female teachers (oft repeated here) is either derived from their feminism or tolerated due to feminist influences. Feminism was instrumental in making the educational system cater to female students and opposes any serious look at whether this is discriminating against boys.

A great many feminists openly hate men and wish us ill. But even for those who don’t openly do this, their focus is entirely upon women. Fair enough. But they insist on monopolising the discussion of the what could be called “gendered issues”. To the extent they’re even willing to admit there are men’s rights issues, and a great many prominent feminists deny even that, it has to be what they, the feminists, decide our issues are! How would women like it if some ill informed man said that he alone knew what women’s problems really where, and the women were too ignorant to really know? That’s what it is with feminism. They focus on women and what they perceive as women’s oppression, and only consider men in terms of how they impact women. That’s the truth of even “liberal feminism”. You can’t work with that.

I’m male, I don’t pretend to know all about the issues women face. I do ask the women in my life about their experience from time to time. But feminists who do seek to look at things from a male perspective without prejudice are all to often vilified by the movement.

Either feminism has to change (including recognising the often negative impacts on men of at least some of the things they pursue), or you can just forget this “working together” idea.

ImportantResults · 2021-07-08T18:13:24+00:00

Rights for human beings are not opposed to rights for human beings, the thing is that feminism is a multi-million dollar business that is against anything that might threaten their millionaire salaries.

Attending issues that men suffer would totally draw the power and money they are used to get, specially since men problems are much more than women's problems.

A way to protect their business is to teach the idea that men deserve less but it's told decorated as a social justice thing so people will actually deny men equal rights under the impression that they are in the morally correct.

DavidByron2 · 2021-07-08T19:34:44+00:00

Feminism is a hate movement.

They no more represent equality or women's rights than Nazis represent equality for white Germans.

or just care about being contrarian to the feminist movement

Because combating hate is.... bad?

Our system is fundamentally flawed and if we worked together with the feminists

How would that work out?

feminist: let's kill all the men
men: can we compromise and only kill half the men?
feminist: no that's too many, how about 90% ?

2021-07-08T21:03:32+00:00

Feminism has directly legislated against men's rights (such as making dv/rape laws gender neutral, stopping a 50/50 parenting bill, title 9 abuse stripping male students of due process).

Fundamentally they don't have to be opposed, but the feminist side of things does great harm to men when it denies it strips them off rights, denies them a platform to speak of their own issues. It causes harm to both sides when it teaches that men as a class are oppressors and tells young girls that half the world is out to get them.

MRAs aren't doing this to be contrariety, they're doing this because they need to be heard. But when you got another crowd telling over you every time you open your mouth, telling you your problems and there's are all your fault...

Well exercise a little empathy here. Would you pledge loyalty to that group if they were treating you that way?

Mysterious-Dirt-6506 · 2021-07-08T07:17:40+00:00

[permanently deleted]

TigPlaze · 2021-07-09T21:32:16+00:00

Men's and women's rights don't have to be fundamentally opposed, but I find it completely impossible to work with feminists. They've simply become to hostile and hateful. They constantly use man-bashing hate speech like "kill all men," "manspaining," "mail tears," and "manspreading." Any bit of hate speech like that is a non-starter for me. I won't even speak with a person who talks to me like that. That would be like someone saying, "Hey, nigger, let's talk about civil rights for black people."

dingoperson2 · 2021-07-09T22:00:55+00:00

Women’s rights and men’s rights are not fundamentally opposed

True

men’s right and the feminist movements are fundamentally opposed. They are not.

False

You're conflating women's rights to equality with "feminist movements". These are not the same.

gunmetal_silver · 2021-07-10T00:00:21+00:00

I understand where you are coming from, but more than half of the loudest feminists will agree with what you said and then never compromise with those of us that would sit at that negotiation table. We're not fundamentally opposed to women being equal under the law to men. You seem to think we are. We're not. That is exactly what we want.

We are fundamentally opposed to feminists. That is a term that doesn't mean what it used to. It used to mean someone who lobbied for women's suffrage and protested unfair hiring and payment of women. Nowadays, it's a contraction of 'feminine supremacist.'

kneeman1 · 2021-07-10T03:33:50+00:00

Yes exactly. Talking about the system realizing that the societal pressures put on BOTH men and women are hurting both sides. The concept of toxic masculinity is fascinating to look at because many standards or statistics that are brought up by men are reinforced by the concept of extreme masculinity that men are upheld to. In much the same way that traditionalism for women harms them. Everything that I see in the world and want to change, ei: societal perceptions of women (I am one) can be connected back to this view of masculinity that harms women by demonizing femininity and feminism, while also harming the men that are put in this system. And yes, media tends to focus on feminism because of those prevalent social issues, as well as the historical pattern of women being seen as the lesser sex. Look up vintage ads, or look at the cult of domesticity in the 1820s, look at the traditionalism of the 50s and women have been seen as lower than men. That is why there is so much popularity surrounding it, because men have been the dominating sex for most of human history.

TLDR: I agree with this person, the system and the concept of hyper masculinity that is thrust upon men harms both men and women.

MemeMasterBill · 2021-07-08T09:46:35+00:00

Exactly! The patriarchy isn’t exactly a concept that empowers men, but it’s more the concept that enforces gender norms. And as you know, both sides are fighting against gender norms. The patriarchy is the side that believes in both anti male and anti female systems.

Edit: Apologies, I was sort of taught by my parents that the patriarchy didn’t qualify towards males. I am now calling it the Genderarchy.

thesnowstorm17 · 2021-07-08T10:31:18+00:00

I made a post like this before, it's the only post I made so you can see it in my profile.

The response I got was... mixed. There were many people who agreed, many who disagreed, many who were violently anti-feminist, many who disliked feminism but kept an open mind...

I don't think getting feminists and MRAs to stop hating each other in their entirety is possible at the moment, but posts like this at least makes things better.

Kudos to you for making this post. I hope more people join us (feminists too, hopefully) and we can hope to bridge the gap between these two equalist groups in the future. We have the same goal, after all.

Title	Women’s rights and men’s rights are not fundamentally opposed
Author	Machida15
Upvotes	13
Comments	92
Date	July 8, 2021 7:11 AM UTC (5 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/og24ot/womens_rights_and_mens_rights_are_not/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/womens-rights-and-mens-rights-are-not.824654 https://theredarchive.com/post/824654

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