EDIT: RIP MY INBOX! Clarification at the bottom.
You often read posts by women lamenting their experiences of sexism in the workplace, be it missed advancement opportunities or the constant feeling of being scrutinized, of having to do better than is expected of their male peers to qualify. And then you get guys doubting that it's true and it pisses me off because I know exactly what it's like.
I'm a young male psychologist. Almost all my collegues both in this workplace and my previous two, and in the field in general, are women, most of them middle aged. I've never had a male boss.
And it is SO clear that anything to do with emotions or relationships or healthcare has become (or maybe always was?) a female-dominated field.
Up until very recently I was the lowest-paid psychologist in our office. Less qualified women with less experience and fewer years of employment in the field were being paid higher than me.
I constantly have to defend my methods and my choices. It is totally normal that patients sometimes want to switch therapists, hey, I even encourage it. Whatever's best for them. I have patients switch away from me at roughly the same rate as my coworkers. But for some reason, I'm the only person that gets called up to the boss to explain myself when this happens. Even though one of my coworkers (kudos to her for standing up for me!) explained to our boss (who has no mental health background) that patients switching is totally normal, I STILL get it thrown in my face in every yearly performance review.
It is never accepted as fact that I know how to do my job, I constantly have to prove myself. My female coworkers can work half as hard and receive twice the recognition, even the new hires it is just assumed from day one that they know what they are doing.
And idea presented at a meeting is scrutinized from every angle when I say it, accepted at face value when a woman says it.
If we are having a therapists' conference to discuss clients we need help with, and I give a response, the other therapists just keep asking the group until one of the women agrees with what I said or gives the same advice worded differently.
But fuck all of them, I will be free soon. If everything works out I will be going to a trade school this fall, this field I'm in just isn't worth it. After that I can just show up as an HVAC tech at any customer's house and nobody will ever question my competence based solely on my sex ever again.
Clarifications
First up, thanks for all the support guys, you've been great. I should add that I wrote this earlier in the day when I had just had a major "fuck this" moment after a female customer (rep of a large employer that pays for their staff to see us, sort of how workplace insurance works in the US) had called specifically to question my credentials and competence, based on one single patient having complained, something I can guarantee never has happened to any of my female coworkers, and never will. And I had to sit there and politely swallow her baseless criticism and smooth things over for the sake of customer relations. Never experienced anything like that and I hope I never will again either. I'll respond to some of the common answers ideas here:
Open my own practice: as it were, this is a historically bad time for that. My country has universal healthcare, and many new corporate actors have entered that market so that large companies with hundreds of therapists can now make contracts with the government and accept patients who pay nothing out of pocket. Private practices cannot get such contracts for legal reasons I won't bore you with here. The number of private practices is declining as they go out of business since hell, why pay when you can get it for free just by waiting a month or three? I'm simplyfying here but that's the gist of it.
To those saying "change jobs": I have, this pattern has been consisten in all three clinics I've worked in. Three is not a huge number, but I'd rather not wager my wellbeing on it just being poor luck so far.
To those saying my coworkers are not (only) sexist, but it is a question of workplace bullying or gaslighting: I really don't think so. For all their faults and how they treat me, they are ordinary, normal and actually mostly nice people. This is not some conspiracy against me. They are just blind to their biases and don't realize how shitty their behavior is. I also know from experience that when you call women out on their sexist bullshit, they react just about as well as men who are called out on their sexist bullshit, which is to say, generally not well at all.
Is the whole HVAC thing a joke? No, it honestly isn't. I've been considering changing careers for several years, and the things mentioned in this post are only part of the reason. And I do still believe I have a valuable contribution to make to the clinical field, and I do like working with patients, and my hope is to somehow do both therapy and HVAC part time, I'll figure something out. I like working with my hands and solving technical problems, I'll be fine. And even though it will certainly be a loss in financial terms, it appears that psychologists and HVAC techs are closer to each other here than they are in the USA.
[–]MostLikelyPoopingRN 253 points254 points255 points (33 children) | Copy Link
I also work in a woman-dominated field and it’s making me lose hope. Sexism is both official, like hiring strategies that explicitly aim at hiring more women despite them already making up 65-70% of the workforce (this is across the biggest organizations in the field), as well as unofficial like unchecked sexual harassment by women in more senior positions. Most days I’ve lost almost all passion and motivation for the line of work, but I’ve invested so much to try to get into this field and have no other passions, I don’t know what to do.
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[–]Deadlift420 42 points43 points44 points (3 children) | Copy Link
But at a small employer, if it does end up being an issue it will be far more pronounced. Grass is always greener.
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[–]Sophisticated_Sloth 10 points11 points12 points (1 child) | Copy Link
What he’s saying is that it’s significantly easier to escape sexism in a building of 500 people at a large company, than in small office of 10.
[–]MostLikelyPoopingRN 4 points5 points6 points (0 children) | Copy Link
Thanks, yeah I’m trying, though times are tough.
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[–]eldgee 1 point2 points3 points (0 children) | Copy Link
If that's a direct quote, it probably means that women are paid on average between 99 and 100% of what men are paid on average, i.e. almost the same as men (but still slightly less).
[–][deleted] 6 points7 points8 points (0 children) | Copy Link
Is there at least a single job, women are not taking over or at least female-dominated jobs men are taking over, why are men allowing women to take over, is the overrepresentation of women in universities causing a masculinization among the less educated and the middle educated, what are men doing if they no longer work or go to university, do you trust labour force surveys.
So many questions and no one has the answers.
[–]melk8 5 points6 points7 points (3 children) | Copy Link
What field is it? So I know to avoid it in the future
[–]MostLikelyPoopingRN 13 points14 points15 points (2 children) | Copy Link
International affairs (basically international security and development).
[–]melk8 9 points10 points11 points (1 child) | Copy Link
Huh, that doesn’t sound like it would be a woman-dominated job but who am I to know.
[–]MostLikelyPoopingRN 5 points6 points7 points (0 children) | Copy Link
I know, I had no idea until I got to grad school. It’s really the last 10-15 years there’s been a big change.
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[–]MostLikelyPoopingRN 2 points3 points4 points (1 child) | Copy Link
I’ve not heard of CRNA, Is that nursing? That would be a very gratifying line of work to go into (good pay sounds great too), though I’m not in the US and I’m not sure how mandrakes it would take to switch to that.
[–]AreYou4RealM8 14 points15 points16 points (6 children) | Copy Link
Thats brutal. It must be exhausting to work in conditions like that. Women have been complaining for years about conditions like this in the majority of male dominated workplaces but I never believed them. I guess being a minority and working for the opposite sex does suck and maybe I should be more understanding.
[–]MostLikelyPoopingRN 21 points22 points23 points (5 children) | Copy Link
Thanks. I think it’s important to be understanding when anyone talks about sexism they face (I’m sure most of us here do). Honestly though, I think discrimination against men has been systematized whereas women face it primarily at an individual level by ignorant people. I’m very skeptical if a woman says she’s discriminated against in a systematized way. I know I have a bias, but I can’t imagine any organization in the last 30+ years actively seeking to recruit more men, let alone when they already make up the majority of the workforce.
[–][deleted] 16 points17 points18 points (3 children) | Copy Link
The canadian government has a program to prevent men from getting a job in the construction sector.
[–][deleted] 11 points12 points13 points (2 children) | Copy Link
Yeah, it fucking sucks. I'm a Canadian and my father is a construction worker, a superintendent to be precise and I understand the business well enough.
Honestly if they prevent men from getting jobs there then the industry is going to a halt and is going to get cut in half. On average, if you're lucky, you're going to get 1 woman for every 10 men in the industry in the field. There's simply not enough women going into the field for this kind of "woke" shit to be sustainable.
[–][deleted] 0 points1 point2 points (1 child) | Copy Link
Is not just about interest, is also about being qualified.
[–][deleted] 5 points6 points7 points (0 children) | Copy Link
I mean, yeah. On my father's 5 man crew he only got a woman once through YEARS in the industry. Half of women that can even be labeled as "working in the construction industry" are working in their offices and not even in the field.
[–]Doc-Engineer 0 points1 point2 points (0 children) | Copy Link
My wife's mom had to sue her company after working there for like a decade once she found out she was being paid significantly less than some of her own male staff members. This was in the shipping industry, definitely still a male dominated field. After she began the lawsuit it came out that most of the women there (giant defense contractor) had also been underpaid for years and they ended up joining the lawsuit. Was a huge deal and ended up putting them out of business in the long run.
So on the one hand, it's hard to say that's systemic discrimination because the company was definitely penalized for their sexism. On the other hand, they got away with underpaying the women for the entirety of their business dealings until someone in a high-up management position with access to privileged information caught on to the bullshit. Otherwise they'd still be doing it now.
This was also in the SE United States, which may as well be an entirely different (and possibly third world at times) country.
TLDR: still goes both ways, but one way is imminently more recognizable by the public and is actually punished
[+]janearcade -14 points-13 points-12 points (9 children) | Copy Link
I'm genuinely curious, why would you go into a woman-dominated field if you don't like working in a woman-dominated field?
[–]MostLikelyPoopingRN 18 points19 points20 points (8 children) | Copy Link
Yeah fair question. I had no idea it was a woman-dominated field until I got to grad school. It’s shifted in the last 10-15 years so it’s not what comes to mind for most people in that regard. Plus I never would’ve imagined discriminatory polices like that would be allowed in any industry in the 21st century.
[–]janearcade 4 points5 points6 points (7 children) | Copy Link
If it comes as a comfort, I have worked in both female and male dominated fields and the sexism was/is present in both. Sadly.
[–][deleted] 11 points12 points13 points (5 children) | Copy Link
Yeah against men in both
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[–][deleted] 8 points9 points10 points (3 children) | Copy Link
Yeah but what kind of discrimination ?.
Discrimination against women in hiring no longer exist.
If it did, why is every single job being taken over by women.
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[–][deleted] 4 points5 points6 points (1 child) | Copy Link
Why are you strawmanning me ?
[–]janearcade -1 points0 points1 point (0 children) | Copy Link
This is untrue.
[–]MostLikelyPoopingRN 1 point2 points3 points (0 children) | Copy Link
Mind sharing a couple examples? And unfortunately that isn’t a comfort haha. Sad indeed.
[–]flipitsmike 87 points88 points89 points (1 child) | Copy Link
I used to work in a woman-dominated field pre-rona. I was sexually assaulted and forced to take therapy sessions while layed off, ultimately firing me for following through with what they wanted.
[–]lastdazeofgravity 34 points35 points36 points (0 children) | Copy Link
sounds about right for a woman. they need to check their ego
[–]user_miki 128 points129 points130 points (6 children) | Copy Link
The difference is that men are stopped to go in women dominated fields while women are encouraged to go in men dominated field.Moreover those men dominated fields are told to accommodate women forcefully,a mandate, which will raise more resentment and increase misogyny.
[+]ObviousObservationz -60 points-59 points-58 points (5 children) | Copy Link
Wait, Mandates to stop sexual harassment in the workplace, make pay equal, and raise the quality of life for women in male dominated fields will only make misogyny worse? Those are the things OP is combining about. Do you think government mandates to help him get harassed less and paid the same would be bad? How?
[–][deleted] 51 points52 points53 points (1 child) | Copy Link
No that’s not exactly what he’s saying, what he means is it’s a double standard. They don’t make women-dominated places accommodate men, but they force the men-dominated places to accommodate women. Which creates some bitterness
[–]Yithar 7 points8 points9 points (0 children) | Copy Link
Yeah, it definitely creates some bitterness if I'm seeing a double standard and some preferential treatment. I won't cause a stir as long as I'm treated fairly.
[–]user_miki 33 points34 points35 points (0 children) | Copy Link
Imagine you are male in women dominated field and told that by your female bosses that they will promote and employ only women while you do all the hard work and lifting because women cannot be bothered with heavy stuff and that is a man job anyway .And women work better with women and men should not complain.
Now imagine you are a male in male dominated field and worked hard for 10 years in some company waiting for a promised promotion and salary increase while covering a senior position, and told at some point by your bosses that they want to employ more women and a woman will be promoted in your place that just arrived in the company 6 months ago ( she still wondering around), moreover your bosses want you to mentor her and teach her all you know in order to take your place in the future.
Do you think this push will decrease misogyny or will increase it?
[–]woke_is_a_plague 11 points12 points13 points (1 child) | Copy Link
This is just a feminazi troll account...the entire comment history is the same garbage
[–][deleted] 40 points41 points42 points (2 children) | Copy Link
This is weird for a Spaniard like me. In Spain, every psychologist is an Argentinian dude.
[–]joseluisalberto 11 points12 points13 points (1 child) | Copy Link
Bro, we love to study psychology here for some reason lol
[–]SleepyNightingale 2 points3 points4 points (0 children) | Copy Link
Just like the German did, it's father Nitetsche's birth child after all ;)
He planted a new German psyche, maybe it's Argentina's tuuuuuu.... wait a minute!
[–]Dheeraj_libra 41 points42 points43 points (1 child) | Copy Link
I can relate to this so much. I'm currently in my final year and sat through placements. 30% of companies came in the name of Equal employment opportunity provider and shamelessly took only girl candidates for their diversity bullshit when there were my own friends with better qualifications and track record.
Honestly people are abusing the women empowerment scheme as a scam for better publicity and government corporate relations.
[–]_tofs_ 12 points13 points14 points (0 children) | Copy Link
They aren't abusing it, it is working as intended.
[–]viper12a1a 32 points33 points34 points (0 children) | Copy Link
Bro, every single post in r/twoxchromosomes is peak "definitely happened". It's like they all ONLY know guys who talk exactly how feminists say that men talk.
*at modern workplace* Man: "what's that? a WOMAN? ON THE COMPUTER!? A woman's place is in the kItChEn!!"
Woman from 2xC: "so i like...totally reported him to HR because i'm a strong woman and i'm not gonna take shit from MEN"
Like....only a feminist would buy that this story EEEVVER happened after 1986
[–]OctaviaPinfold 26 points27 points28 points (0 children) | Copy Link
You know there is a problem when even psychologists complain. You'd expect that field to be different.
[–][deleted] 24 points25 points26 points (0 children) | Copy Link
I hated the sexism I saw in the care/support/mental health industry. Hugely female dominated workplace but desperate for males given the physical demands of the job in dealing with violent behaviour.
Men are treated like perverts. I (as a woman) showered and dressed men and women of all ages all the time - male staff, on the other hand, could not even respond to an emergency situation if it involved a young girl in some state of undress. The times they HAD to come help us, they were risking their jobs and their reputation - for trying to help they would be cross examined as some suspected perv.
In my experience, some of the best support workers were men. They were relied upon to deal with the strongest and most aggressive SUs, but when it came down to it they ultimately weren't trusted by their own company by virtue of their gender. They would get a lot more issues from the public too when restraining someone or dealing with aggression. FYI, if you see two females hauling a screaming person into a car they are just as likely to be kidnapping them as men.
I just couldn't imagine being such an amazing, caring and professional carer as some of these guys were, to be told "well you ultimately can't be trusted around these women and children because you might sexually assault them." It disgusts me. Not only for the male staff but for the vulnerable people exposed to female sexual predators because of this idea that most women are harmless and most men are predatory. SOME BS.
[–]BaconEater669 33 points34 points35 points (0 children) | Copy Link
All the comments are just "its just a toxic workplace find a different job" and "women experience this every day suck it up"
[–]pacsatonifil 12 points13 points14 points (0 children) | Copy Link
Most of my bosses have been chill. Though my current one is a woman and she just is so weird. She is fake polite and bad at management. It’s just a bad experience. I need to find another job soon.
[–]nanan00 11 points12 points13 points (0 children) | Copy Link
So my corporation laid off 90 some individual's a week before Thanksgiving. Last week in our monthly meeting the HR lady said quite proudly how they were able to hire over 30 new employees of diversity.
[–]InformalCriticism 10 points11 points12 points (1 child) | Copy Link
I think this absolutely qualifies as sexism, and it's the most insidious kind.
They're holding you to a higher standard, not necessarily trying to keep you down, but expecting more from you than your colleagues.
During those reviews, in my older saltier years, you really do have to push back on your bosses to make sure they're being straight with you.
In the situations you described, it sounds like you'd come off as passive and taking criticism in stride (whether productive or not), where what they expect of you is to "be a man".
The "manly" thing to do in this situation is not to accept the criticism, but to challenge its validity. Explaining to your employer that "this is normal" is not quite enough. You need to question their entire management style in order to come off as competent; you have to ask challenging questions like, "just so we're clear, is our goal to retain as many clients/patients as possible, or to make sure they are getting the care they need?" Make them sweat their own shitty management style and think twice before pulling you in for a bad review, lest they be outed for their own incompetence.
I imagine you will be happier in a vocation that doesn't cater to sexist expectations, but merit alone, so I don't recommend you stick it out. Being in a minority male profession would likely be a private hell for me, too.
So, best of luck finding a more rewarding vocation. But, if you ever find yourself in similar situations, try to remember that women typically don't go out of their way to treat men and women equally; they will favor own-group preferences, and roast you if you let them.
[–]Surrender01 4 points5 points6 points (0 children) | Copy Link
I have to give this comment a shout out. As a psychologist the OP probably knows that more disagreeable people excel in the workplace because they will negotiate for their own interests harder and won't put up with unfair treatment.
You have to meet their emotional bullshit with logic. This is exactly the question you need to ask them. Having a clear, quantifiable performance metric is a sign of a mature business, but you were never given a clear performance metric - they just found something on the spot to criticize you for. Reviewing your performance on some arbitrary metrics they make up on the spot is shitty management and you have to call it out as such.
Don't be afraid to make them bitter by pushing back like this. They've earned it. It may suck in the short term but the more you practice this kind of disagreeable behavior, the more it pays off in the long term.
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[–]Airforce987 3 points4 points5 points (1 child) | Copy Link
in terms of psychologists though, its not an unreasonable question. In the US, private solo practices are far more common than group practices, be it private or public.
[–]miroku000 0 points1 point2 points (0 children) | Copy Link
In his country though, it is untenable because of the economics of the situation.
[–]timleykis101 13 points14 points15 points (0 children) | Copy Link
I suppose it's not worth complaining?
Get hard numbers about the amount of patients that switch and then bring it up at the next 1-2-1. Tell your boss that as the only male there, that you feel discriminated against.
When she argues with emotion, meet her there with buzz words like " I feel that.." and make sure you pepper words like "toxic environment" and "bully" etc etc. Hell even say that you get WOsplained at in meetings.
You could even record the meetings on your phone discreetly and bring it up in front of all in the next meeting.
Use every underhand dirty trick that they do.
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[–][deleted] 4 points5 points6 points (0 children) | Copy Link
I'm a girl and I request a male therapist/counsellor every time for the same reason. I've never met a female therapist that didn't try to "mother" me whilst dismissing what I'm actually saying, just like my real mother! lol
[–]dragonjock27 20 points21 points22 points (0 children) | Copy Link
Slightly off topic, but if the whole "wage gap" myth is actually true, then men are the real victims in their fields as a result of the pandemic. After all, men are losing $1 for every 79 cents the women lose
[–]Bluebird_North 3 points4 points5 points (0 children) | Copy Link
Was a high school teacher 30 years ago. It was pretty anti-male. The female teachers were all being “attacked.” Left in a few years.
Problem was: I was very good at it and really enjoyed the students.
[–]man2112 4 points5 points6 points (1 child) | Copy Link
Man, I wish I had a male therapist. As a guy, when I was struggling with mental health issues, I found it difficult to connect with my female therapist, but there were no male therapist options to switch to.
[–]flipitsmike 1 point2 points3 points (0 children) | Copy Link
Super thankful I have a male therapist. I agree with your statement 100%.
[–]laptopdragon 2 points3 points4 points (0 children) | Copy Link
OP while only you can determine what path you take I would like to thank you for at least trying in that field.
Requesting you write a book or story on how you were treated, if only to allow further examination of the current problems often overlooked by wahmyn and their holier than thou attitudes.
[–]Nerfixion 2 points3 points4 points (0 children) | Copy Link
I'm not suprised that his field is mostly women, with more women going to uni over men and for some reason everyone one thinks psych being to go to in uni, it's an over saturated market.
Tbh its kinda terrifying that this is how they act being closed doors, last thing I want is a judgy person listening to my problems.
[–][deleted] 1 point2 points3 points (0 children) | Copy Link
They will invalidate his experience, does anybody still believes in labour force surveys ?.
[–]effervescent_idiot 1 point2 points3 points (0 children) | Copy Link
Steamfitter here. You'll be surprised how much your previous field will help you in your new. Still boils down to managing people and their problems.
[–]This_Ad_1296 1 point2 points3 points (0 children) | Copy Link
third comment down people are saying misandry is equally or more prevalent in society, and that no one care about it.
This is knowledge getting out, very epic
[–]Pillery 1 point2 points3 points (0 children) | Copy Link
I am in closely related field and I have seen many of the same issues. I challenge them when I can, but you have to be very careful. I have encountered women who think men don't have the same emotions or just *can't* express emotion. It's troubling. I try to counter that by giving counter-examples, pointing out that giving up on clients is bad, pointing out that clients wont grow if we don't believe they can (self-fulfilling prophecy), and anything else that doesn't seem like too much of a direct attack, because people react badly to that.
You do you, but keep in mind you can just go into private practice eventually.
[–]TheLonelySyed27 4 points5 points6 points (0 children) | Copy Link
I was reading my syllabus for my comp sci class, and the people writing it wrote that the successful student will learn blah blah blah. She will also learn blah blah blah. No mention of a he.
Not a big deal, but I feel like they should've used they instead of just she.
It implies the people writing the syllabus (most likely the TAs), don't think that the male students will be successful, and it kinda stings reading that from the very people who're supposed to be helping you.
[–][deleted] 1 point2 points3 points (0 children) | Copy Link
In have a policy of never working for women. They're generally lazy and bitchy. Young women make especially bad leaders.
[–]CDEDC 0 points1 point2 points (0 children) | Copy Link
It's the same reason I left my job and started a small business & some of my friends can't find a job in their fields even though they are more talented and more experienced than the females getting hired. Whenever I start this conversation I get shut down quickly by females; they quickly mention a female they know who doesn't have a job as if this proves me wrong.
[–]thehunter_25 0 points1 point2 points (0 children) | Copy Link
I love how the first thread is a debate of economics lol
[–]tonymaric 0 points1 point2 points (0 children) | Copy Link
I am a man who has experienced sexism from women, and even sexual harassment at a job and in public.
[–]ymjourney -1 points0 points1 point (0 children) | Copy Link
What field are you in?
[+]ObviousObservationz -62 points-61 points-60 points (22 children) | Copy Link
So to clarify, because upper management is dominated by women,
This man feels they are paid less, have to explain their quality of work more, their ideas are questioned more, and they feel that the workplace is hostile to them.
I would say it checks out though because its all the same things women complain about when men are the majority in management.
This would suggest a healthy balance of gender within a field and especially within management is the ideal to avoid situations like these.
Edit: Downvotes? Do we not want gender equality in fields so that men and women dont have situations like this happinging to them? Isn't that what we all want? Equality?
[–]Oncefa2 63 points64 points65 points (7 children) | Copy Link
Women have a documented, proven bias in favor of other women though.
Men on that other hand have been shown to be almost completely gender egalitarian, and if anything are slightly biased in favor of women, not other men.
That's why we talk about the patriarchy being mass projection by feminists. Men at the top don't do anything for men as a gender but you better believe that women, and especially feminist inclined women, would favor other women.
[–]MopBucketMcJangles 0 points1 point2 points (6 children) | Copy Link
Really? I'm interested in the studies you're referencing. Do you happen to have a link to your info?
[–]Oncefa2 10 points11 points12 points (2 children) | Copy Link
Sure. There are actually quite a few. You can look up the empathy gap and the women are wonderful effect for more.
Here's a good one though:
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/15491274/
[–]Yithar 1 point2 points3 points (1 child) | Copy Link
Huh, I never realized this.
But I wouldn't be able to screen for a virgin boss.
[–]Bad_Routes 1 point2 points3 points (2 children) | Copy Link
I hope you're reading that source and not asking for one as a way to tell them to fuck off
[–]MopBucketMcJangles 0 points1 point2 points (1 child) | Copy Link
Why would you automatically assume a request for evidence is the same as telling someone to fuck off?
[–]Bad_Routes 1 point2 points3 points (0 children) | Copy Link
Because a lot of times people will ask for sources, but then when provided with some they stop replying altogether or they continue arguing without even acknowledging the source that was sent to them. Idk if you do that but it happens a lot
[–]whatafoolishsquid 31 points32 points33 points (5 children) | Copy Link
I think you're being downvoted because the principle behind what you're saying goes against another stance MRAs tend to take, which is that men and women usually choose different jobs. You didn't promote this explicitly, but for example, I wouldn't want the government to try and force psychology or STEM fields to have equal men and women employees. I would rather minorities in their fields just be treated with respect.
[+]ObviousObservationz -27 points-26 points-25 points (4 children) | Copy Link
Agreed. But countless testimonies from men and women say thats not happening. So the official MRA reaction to discrimination against men in the workplace is 'lets just hope it gets better' and thats why I'm being downvoted?
Getting more men in these fields should be encouraged so there is a more even gender distribution and more equitable treatment of men. Shouldnt that be the goals of MRAs? Or just focusing on curbing sexism against men as long as it doesn't highlight and prove sexism against women might exist?
[–]NoMoreMisterMaybe 23 points24 points25 points (0 children) | Copy Link
That's not the goal of MRA. The goal of MRA is to make men (and in a lofty sense, all people), feel comfortable where they are. That doesn't imply pushing men into fields that have a male minority, nor does fixing that minority imply they will be listened to. Same goes for women.
This take on the entire thing is incredibly superficial despite the reality being much simpler: people at the top often lack the empathy and social skills required to relate and listen to wildly diverse subordinates, regardless of sex, gender, ethnicity or what-you-may-have. There are only a few cases where homogeneity in sex or ethnicity is enough for people to feel related to one another, and even that may not be a guarantee, nor does it necessarily need to be provided by the work environment.
[–]whatafoolishsquid 9 points10 points11 points (1 child) | Copy Link
Personally, my response would be, we should do what we can do address discrimination within the field, but to a certain extent, you chose to be a minority and that will always come with challenges. I used to work in primary education, and I definitely believe we should encourage more men to get into the field, as well as things like psychology and, god forbid, gender studies, but I would draw the line at creating quotas or similar regulations to artificially equalize the genders.
[+]ObviousObservationz -21 points-20 points-19 points (0 children) | Copy Link
From an MRA perspective, I can see where you are coming from. So few jobs are female dominated at a management level that of you go into it its your choice.
From a femenist perspective, lots of jobs have only male bosses as males are more likely to push for promotions, work longer hours, and need less flexible schedules. So they deserve said promotions, no argument there. But there are hundreds of thousands of business small and large where the decision makers are dominated by men. Would you tell women to just stick to nursing and teaching? Or to ask what the gender layout is in an interview? Men can avoid the handful of landmines out there but you must see how that would be harder for women.
[–]woke_is_a_plague 7 points8 points9 points (0 children) | Copy Link
This is just a feminazi troll account...the entire comment history is the same garbage
[–]NoMoreMisterMaybe 6 points7 points8 points (1 child) | Copy Link
Unfortunately, the suggestion may be far from the truth. This implies two things:
The former is far more intricate and hits on the problems with how mass media likes to define diversity, what actual diversity is and the "diversity sweet spot". A white woman and a black man with the exact same ideals and birth place working together, are not actually that diverse (let alone diversity in the qualities that matter for the "diversity promotes innovation" narrative).
The latter is something every man with a wildly differing opinion from a male-dominated management layer can already attest to. It's all smoke and mirrors unless your opinion highly aligns with management already. Stubborn people are stubborn, regardless of sex.
[–]ManofGod1000 10 points11 points12 points (0 children) | Copy Link
He does not "feel" anything, unlike you who clearly operate on "feelings". He stated simple facts and your point is not going to change it because as Coach Greg Adams says: Facts do not care about your feelings.
[–]PhilsophyOfBacon 4 points5 points6 points (0 children) | Copy Link
Two wrongs don't make a right.
[–]woke_is_a_plague 3 points4 points5 points (0 children) | Copy Link
This is just a feminazi troll account...the entire comment history is the same garbage
[–]tenchineuro 9 points10 points11 points (0 children) | Copy Link
And what is a "healthy balance"? Is it the same 50% or greater female that feminism demands?
MRA's don't want what feminists call 'Equality', we want an end to discriminatory practices against men and for men to have the same remedies for discrimination that women have.
[–]JoeSmith1907 -4 points-3 points-2 points (0 children) | Copy Link
i don't think you should be downvoted. You're trying to add to the discussion.
[+]joparedes13 -8 points-7 points-6 points (0 children) | Copy Link
Upvoted. Healthy discussion.
[+][deleted] (4 children) | Copy Link
[permanently deleted]
[–]Terror-Error 25 points26 points27 points
(0 children) | Copy Link
Please leave this sub.
[–]RunInRunOn 12 points13 points14 points (0 children) | Copy Link
In about 6 years, you're going to look back on this and facepalm
[–]melk8 10 points11 points12 points (0 children) | Copy Link
You sound like that edgy kid in school who thinks tarot cards are messages from god himself.
[–]Terror-Error 11 points12 points13 points (0 children) | Copy Link
I mean seriously? Gtfo