Menslib on false rape accusations

Lethn · 2018-09-22T21:47:32+00:00

It's definitely worth looking into their 'arguments' ( And I use the term loosely, it's more like emotional blackmail ) to disprove them but the reality is it shouldn't matter to them so much that the numbers are low if they are gender equality activists like they claim to be.

Who cares if it's 5% or even 1%? If you care about gender equality it shouldn't matter, the fact they're so desperate to dismiss men getting falsely accused on these flimsy grounds should show to most people they have an ulterior motive.

blueblackyellowred · 2018-09-22T23:32:30+00:00

Post from /u/serial_crusher on /r/MensLibWatch debunked this argument perfectly:

The big bait and switch here is always that only 2-10% of accusations are PROVEN to be false (as in, the case went to trial and the accuser was found guilty)

Applying that same logic to data from RAINN, only 0.7% of rape allegations are PROVEN to be true (as in, the case went to trial and the accuser was found guilty)

https://www.rainn.org/statistics/criminal-justice-system

Of course, the other 90% of accusations must be true, and a system that railroads 99% of women who report rape couldnt possibly also railroad more than 2-10% of men accused of rape. Nope, clearly our culture and the justice system are above reproach on these matters. Well, except when they aren’t.

So they're lying through their teeth.

The most interesting question is why they think the 2-10 percent myth is such a compelling argument: as /u/Lethn points out, it wouldn't matter if inly 0.000001 percent of allegations were false. The cornerstone of a just legal system is presumption of innocence and due process rights. Fucking faceplam.

1 in 6 of women report they have been sexually assaulted.

Wait, I thought it was one in four? They come up with a new fucking statistic every five minutes. If we're going to include atrocities like a "dirty joke" an "unwanted kiss" then the only surprising thing is that 100 percent of women don't report being "sexually assaulted." Incidentally, about the same number of men report being subjected to the same behaviors by women. But I guess "Mens Lib" isn't interested in actually helping men.

That sub is the most toxic place on Reddit. Imagine hating yourself that much...

vincentbriatore · 2018-09-23T01:56:36+00:00

I honestly think over 50% of accusations are false!! Hell 90% involve alcohol so that should tell you something.

In many states in the USA a rape conviction is 25 to life, yet you can beat a man up half to death & get probation... why??

Because rape is a horrible crime??? I hate to sound like a radical but I’ve asked many women if they had to choose between being severely beaten or raped with no “injuries” what would they “prefer”, and I’ve yet to meet a woman who’d pick to be beaten. Maybe that makes me sound like an asshole but the reality is most women have no problem selling sex if they are in a tough spot. Women are overly emotional and ALWAYS seem to overestimate the severity of the things that affect them. Rape is wrong obviously, but rape is also the crime with the most wrongfull convictions but no one seems to give a shit. Which is mind boggling!!

Everyone deserves to be safe!! But Pissed off chicks use the legal system as a tool to carry out their own personal revenge more often than we care to admit.

Rapists should go to prison, but so should people who wrongfully accuse someone.

Justathrowawayoh · 2018-09-23T00:55:02+00:00

I may have a heart attack if I ever see these people honestly and genuinely discuss false allegations. It's dishonest, disengenuous garbage on multiple levels. The bait and switch, the mischaracterizations, the logical errors, and more.

azazelcrowley · 2018-09-24T15:23:22+00:00

Menslib takes a mens issue and immediately sets about downplaying it and rationalizing it for the sake of feminist dogma, they don't start from a position of caring about men and their interests and it's routinely proven.

azazelcrowley · 2018-09-25T14:23:41+00:00

Point 1: (Rape apologetics)

Did you notice they used stats on male rape victims that exclude female perpetrators and then whined we don't talk about male rape victims enough?

Point 2: (Lying about their critics)

In his conclusion, he just throws out the lie that we want women back in the kitchens and that's why we behave this way about false rape accusations, showing he has no comprehension of our position on couch princesses and doesn't understand what or how we think, or more likely, doesn't care and isn't interested in honest engagement with us or our ideas rather than vilifying those who go against his holy scriptures. The position on couch princesses is not only explicit on that issue, but can be easily inferred from our complaints about alimony and women having better work-life balance than men due to discrimination against men, so they're having to actively ignore evidence in front of them that exists in reality for our position and motivations and instead refer back to their scriptures on how anyone who questions them is possessed by demons. I don't think they're sincere in that, they're just a bunch of duplicitous liars seeking to smear us rather than engage with our criticism of them, because so long as they stubbornly refuse to engage in good faith they can rely on their control over institutions and influence over society to have a conversation with imaginary critics instead of real ones.

Point 3: (The post itself)

He also makes no reference to due process rights and protections for the accused which lend heavy credence to our concern and the court rulings that due process has been violated by campus kangaroo courts, and make the MensLib position that it isn't a legit issue a laughable one given that courts have ruled it's violating people's human rights. (MensLib - Human rights violations aren't a cause for concern when feminism demands it.) He also illegitimately separates minority concern from male concern saying the former is legit and the latter isn't, and ignores that a talking point of ours is that the campus kangaroo courts disproportionately target men, but especially minority men.

We should make a list of these kind of Menslib fuck ups to show to people who keep recommending that sub as better than this one for discussing mens issues. It isn't. What it is is a sub that bases men's recognition and discussion of their issues around hypersensitive or gynocentrist womens comfort with what's being discussed, because as we all know, any discussion on gender equality that makes women uncomfortable is definitively not legitimate.

The only ghost of a legitimate point made in his post is that we have more topic posts on false accusations than male rape victims, but he then lays that at our door rather than bother to follow the thought through to the logical conclusion that there's simply more articles on accusations of rape against men (Including false ones), than male rape victims, and we collect them here as unlike their sub, we're actually very active and can manage to discuss the majority of articles related to our topic, and manage to have more than one conversation a week. 40,000 feminists from the entirety of reddit interested enough in at least trying to rationalize away mens issues to sub, and fuck all contributors. They care about men too, ofcourse, those 40,000.

So he's blaming us for the media's lack of recognition of male rape victims because his dogmatic adherence to a hate movement and his kneejerk duplicity toward us make him incapable of thinking coherently about us or our positions.

It was all in all a shit post full of errors and duplicity.

Point 4 (Moderation.)

A good quote from their moderator there deleting a pro-MRA post that demonstrates the pathology that feminism causes in its believers:

No, it is a virulent toxin that has so thoroughly poisoned the well of discourse that it has become difficult for men to integrate into feminism proper. The MRM has done more to stifle progress towards gender equality for men than any other social movement in modern history.

When you break this down, it's him screaming "Their ideas are harmful and they're the reason it's difficult for men to integrate into feminism."

He's blaming us for feminism failing to integrate men. The pathology that feminism causes in its adherents is a total and complete lack of ability to view the movement as responsible for any of the negatives it has caused, here we can see how this feminist is blaming the MRM for their own movement not being welcoming to men. He projects his own movements failure onto us, saying it's our fault, and then uses that failure to say we're responsible for lack of progress on men's issues.

Implicitly there this moderator has admitted that the reason there's a lack of progress on men's issues is that feminism hasn't integrated them successfully. Rather than evaluate this fairly and objectively, he freaks out and projects that onto us, a marginalized movement that doesn't exactly have control over schools, media backing, and so on. This is totally and completely unhinged, but it is the only option available to him that doesn't involve recognizing feminism has failed because it is sexist, not because of outside factors. (Holding feminism to modern standards, it is feminists duty to make their movement inclusive. They have routinely and persistently failed to adjust to be inclusive and appealing to men.)

Feminisms failure to integrate men isn't due to us. It's due to the flaws inherent in feminism. The feminist pathology caused this mod to be incapable of considering that option because feminism is a form of essentialism like american exceptionalism where people's thought process is that America are definitively the good guys no matter how they act or what they do and have perpetual claim to that moral legitimacy. Feminism is an equality movement by definition, even when it causes widespread sexism and abuse or isn't integrating both sexes equally into its movement and agenda, and America are on the side of freedom even when they torture people and engage in warrantless surveillance. This is the kind of pathology that feminism, or indeed dogmatism of any kind, causes.

The mod comprehends that feminism has failed to integrate men, that this has meant progress on men's issues has stalled, but cannot bring themselves to reach the only reasonable conclusion about that. Feminism has failed to integrate men for the same reason a white supremacist culture would fail to integrate minorities. The MRM is a response to that failure. He reacts like someone who blames inner city riots for racism.

Implied in his slander of us as our ideas being harmful or dangerous is that our opposition to feminism is harmful/dangerous, but even within his own statement you can see why that isn't the case and he alludes to the problems involved. if feminism has failed to integrate men because it is sexist, then our opposition is legitimate. His characterization of us as dangerous and illegitimate is reliant on his projecting the failures of feminism onto us in a fit of circular and panicked illogic.

Even if we accept his core assertion the MRM is toxic and anti-woman and so on and grant his premise, he is essentially some asshole screaming about how it's the terrorists fault everyone hates muslims and refusing to hold himself or his society accountable for their mindsets and behaviors or how it might have fostered the situation.

He is, in short, exactly what you would expect from a MensLib moderator, and it speaks volumes about their pathetic damage control attempt.

5th_Law_of_Robotics · 2018-09-23T13:38:40+00:00

I've yet to find a legitimate men's issues they will discuss. They dismiss this and lack of male reproductive Rights, longer sentences, the workplace fatality gap etc. Boys only do worse in education or kill themselves more because men are naturally toxic. Etc.

The only men's issues they've attempted to discuss are things like "why can't boys wear makeup in school".

Menslib is a way to siphon off men who might be interested in men's issues away from the bulk of feminism in to a corner where they can safely discuss nothing of importance without interrupting the real discussion.

It would be like in the 1800s creating a women's auxillary for any woman who had dangerous notions about deserving rights so instead you get them to work together to share recipes and such to keep them from causing too much trouble.

girlwriteswhat · 2018-09-25T16:04:02+00:00

Rape is much more common than murder as well, so we shouldn't be concerned about the murder rate or murder victims, because they're comparatively rare, yo. /s

The idea that false accusations are a static percentage of reports is a bit silly, too.

The rate of rape varies, depending on time period, demographics and other factors. The rate of reporting also varies, depending on perceived effectiveness of police, demographics and other factors.

And I would contend that the absolute rate of false reporting (the number of false reports per capita) is also going to be variable. (Pretty sure there was a higher absolute rate of false accusations of witchcraft in Salem in 1692 than there was in 1691, even if the false report rate when expressed as a percentage of all reports held steady at 100% over both years.)

So we have three variables here: the rate of rape, the rate of reporting rape and the rate of false reporting of rape. So let's say we look at a period of 1 year, and a population of 10,000 people.

100 rapes (1% of people), a report rate of 30%, and 10 false reports (0.001% of people) = 1/4 of rape reports are false.

100 rapes (1% of people), a report rate of 60%, and 10 false reports (0.001% of people) = 1/7 of rape reports are false.

200 rapes (2% of people), a report rate of 30%, and 10 false reports (0.001% of people) = 1/7 of rape reports are false.

200 rapes (2% of people), a report rate of 60%, and 10 false reports (0.001% of people) = 1/13 of rape reports are false.

There's a huge difference between 1 in 13 and 1 in 4, and yet these hypothetical figures are all based on the exact same prevalence number for false reporting--1 in 1000 people made a false report to police--where only the rate of rape and the rate of reporting are changed.

But absolute rates of crime are almost never completely static, and I would suggest that false reports may be particularly variable. Think of the Satanic Panic, where America basically went from zero reports of ritualized Satanic sexual abuse of children in day care centers to a huge number of such reports, all of which, as far as I can tell, were baseless and the sole result of a highly publicized nationwide moral panic.

Also, think about rape shield protections--anonymity for accusers in particular--and the absolute lack of political will to punish false accusers. This crime is essentially cost-free even when you get caught. You suffer no legal repercussions because prosecuting false accusers almost never happens, and no social repercussions because your name is withheld from media.

100 rapes (1% of people), a report rate of 30%, and 5 false reports (0.0005% of people) = 1/7 of rape reports are false.

200 rapes (2% of people), a report rate of 30%, and 5 false reports (0.0005% of people) = 1/13 of rape reports are false.

100 rapes (1% of people), a report rate of 60%, and 15 false reports (0.0015% of people) = 1/5 of rape reports are false.

200 rapes (2% of people), a report rate of 60%, and 15 false reports (0.0015% of people) = 1/9 of rape reports are false.

Now let's look at what SOME feminists say about the report rate for rape--"only 1 in 10 victims report to police":

200 rapes (2% of people), a report rate of 10%, and 5 false reports (0.0005% of people) = 1/5 of rape reports are false.

200 rapes (2% of people), a report rate of 10%, and 10 false reports (0.001% of people) = 1/3 of rape reports are false.

200 rapes (2% of people), a report rate of 10%, and 15 false reports (0.0015% of people) = 3/7 of rape reports are false.

100 rapes (1% of people), a report rate of 10%, and 5 false reports (0.0005% of people) = 1/3 of rape reports are false.

100 rapes (1% of people), a report rate of 10%, and 10 false reports (0.001% of people) = 1/2 of rape reports are false.

100 rapes (1% of people), a report rate of 10%, and 15 false reports (0.0015% of people) = 3/5 of rape reports are false.

The idea that you can fix an absolute number on something that is itself variable, and which is also expressed as a function of two other variables, is ridiculous.

TheMythof_Feminism · 2018-09-25T02:40:12+00:00

An SJW/feminist subreddit discussing false rape accusations? this should be good....

Sorry but if you seriously just count every unproven case as true, then you are full of shit.

Damn it, you beat me to the punch, do I even need to be here?

The above quoted is pretty much exactly the core issue; The SJWs/feminists fail to understand that by virtue of our most important human right of all, the ethical and legal tenet known as Presumption of innocence , we always err on the side of the accusations being false, not on the accusations being true, get the fuck out of here with that "Guilty until proven innocent" bullshit [I mean them , not OP].

So let's address one of the SJW/feminist points directly;

I know that 2-10% is alot and enough to give anyone pause considering how epidemic sexual assault is.

"Sexual assault" is a vague notion. Specifically let's talk about rape; Rape is the least common violent crime committed of all by several orders of magnitude. In fact, even if we factor in "sexual assault" just as a broad statement, it still doesn't approach the other crimes.

Here are the 2014 compilation of statistics from the Department of Justice/Bureau of Justice from 2005 to 2014, revised in 2015

A brief summary with a rough set of the numbers from that crime chart:

Rape/sexual assault: 200,000 - 300,000

Burglary: 700,000 - 750,000

Assault: [Aggravated assault and simple assault] 4,400,000 - 5,900,000

As you can see, rape/sexual assault , even together, are very much the least committed crimes by a huge amount.

The notion that there is some sort of "epidemic" of rape/sexual assault is completely laughable. Those guys are a bunch of propagandist simps and nothing more.

RobDog101 · 2018-09-25T17:14:19+00:00

It's funny how they'll look at the low percentage of accusations proven false and use that as the percentage that are actually false, but look at the comparably low percentage of accusations proven true and say this shows the system is biased towards the accused. Feminism has always been built on contradictory, ad hoc bullshit like that.

i_reckon_not · 2018-09-25T04:01:53+00:00

Just because a rape accusation wasn't made to the police, does not make it automatically true!

This really is important. I am personally acquainted with someone who has made several accusations of this nature against young men, one of whom is a friend of mine. She has never actually made a police report. Despite all the ready made, off the shelf excuses ("no perfect victims") for this that she trots out when asked, I am confident that the reason is simply because her stories change all the time and don't add up and she'd risk fines for wasting police time. That is to say, they are bullshit. And her goal of having the guy made a pariah among shared social circles can be achieved just as well or better without police involvement. This one in particular, when she first aired the grievance in a group chat and gave dates and times for the alleged incident to our group of friends, I knew for a fact it was rubbish because I was online, on voice chat, in game with the dude at the exact time she said he'd assaulted her and was for several hours before and after. So unless he was playing World of Warcraft from his shitty Nokia featurephone from a deserted carpark in the middle of nowhere at midnight while raping this girl, it didn't happen. Of course, she subsequently changed the story - first to a time he was physically in the presence of another friend and then finally to a third date/time where nobody could verify his whereabouts. Apparently she was just so 'traumatised' that her sense of time and place was completely distorted.

But people still believed it or at the very least, were too frightened to say anything because they'd risk sharing his fate. She got what she wanted - most of this guy's friends abandoned him (including me for a number of years, I am profoundly ashamed to say) and he became persona-non-grata and known as a "rapist" for years afterward, which affected his personal and professional life because of the city's rumour mill. All without the accuser ever getting within sniffing distance of a police station.

I certainly understand the focus on the legal system because of it's concrete, measurable consequences and statistics. Understand and support that approach most of the time, as men and men's advocates simply don't have the luxury of being taken seriously by default the way that women advocates do. But I also think it's important that we don't get tunnel vision on this issue and that a false accusation even when the legal system is not involved whatsoever can have huge consequences because of the culture that is promoted around this issue.

Lupinfujiko · 2018-09-25T06:53:45+00:00

I feel like we were talking about this yesterday.

The first question is, what exactly is the definition of a "false accusation"?

Is it when the accuser outright lies? Or is it if there was no conviction?

That would obviously change the outcome by quite a bit.

What would be the opposite of a false accusation? Would it be a "positive accusation"?

Would a "positive accusation" mean a conviction?

Would then not the opposite of that mean a "false accusation"?

There is another feminist statistic:

Out of every 1,000 sexual assaults, 997 assailants walk free.

These two statistics cannot work together.

A. If 2-8% of accusations are false, that would mean 20-80 out of a thousand "assailants" would "walk free".

B. If this were true, that would mean there are only 3 out of 1,000 "positive accusations".

That would therefore mean that 997 out of 1,000 accusations would be false.

The entire thing hinges on our definitions of "false" and "positive" accusations.

These statistics are dressed up statistics. They are meant to intimidate us and silence us. They are used as a battering ram. They are meant to shame us into acceptance and ultimately subservience.

They are a weapon.

Keep using your mind and don't let it get the best of you.

runninginacyclone · 2018-09-25T09:15:28+00:00

2-10%. Lets take the median: 4%. 4% false accusations is incredibly high. That means there are tens of thousands of falsely accused men. That would not be insignificant - thats would be an epidemic IF IT WERE THAT LOW.

A rape accusation is a life sentence. Imagine if 4% of passenger airlines crashed. Or if 4% of brake cables failed on cars. 4% is alarming. 10% is very alarming. But it could be even higher.

Meyright · 2018-09-25T13:16:36+00:00

Three independant german police stations reporting ridiculously high number of false rape allegations reported to the police:

Experts estimate that between 30 and 50 percent of police known cases of sexual assault and rape could be fictitious.

https://www.stuttgarter-zeitung.de/inhalt.vergewaltigung-oder-nicht-unschuldig-auf-der-anklagebank.2493a3cf-12db-4b64-afb8-5d7c3992699d.html

The police officers responsible for sexual offences estimate the average proportion of false suspicions (§§ 145 d, 164 StGB) and the pretence of a crime1 in all offences reported under § 177 StGB - sexual coercion; rape - at 33.4 per cent. According to their assessment, almost two-thirds (63.6%) of the proceedings processed by themselves and discontinued by the public prosecutor's office for various reasons according to § 170 II of the Code of Criminal Procedure are "more likely" or "highly likely" to be pretences or false suspicions.

https://www.polizei.bayern.de/content/4/3/7/vergewaltigung_und_sexuelle_n_tigung_in_bayern_bpfi.pdf

Since 2007, Criminal Superintendent Britta Rabe has been dealing with sexual offences in Rostock and the district, together with three colleagues. However, investigators are increasingly dealing with false cases: Eight out of ten sexual offences are faked.

http://www.ostsee-zeitung.de/Mecklenburg/Rostock/Acht-von-zehn-Vergewaltigungen-sind-vorgetaeuscht

Menslib is a feminist trojan horse. You can have a look at the posts trying to discuss feminism. It's simply heresy to shine ANY bad light onto feminism. If you're merely suggesting that feminism is somehow at fault somewhere, your post gets deleted. r/menslib is not a place for discussion at all. It is an echo chamber like every other feminist safe space

orangeLILpumpkin · 2018-09-23T02:23:31+00:00

This is a stupid debate because there is simply no way to know the percentage of rape accusations that are false. Even if everyone agreed on the definition of consent, there are typically only 2 people who actually know what happened. And if those 2 don't agree, it is virtually impossible to determine whether that even goes into the "rape" category or the "false accusation" category.

BlueOrange22 · 2018-09-25T17:09:53+00:00

Menslibs is a feminist subreddit and the opposite of helping men. It's nothing more than a tool for SJW propaganda.

Mens-Advocate · 2018-09-25T21:57:43+00:00

My analysis of the infamous FBI 8% unfounded claim:
https://www.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/4w1z94/information_about_fbi_8_unfounded_accusation/

The 2% lie is a woozle originating with Susan Brownmiller, who just made up the number or took it from the percentage of other types of crimes deemed false. Decades later, Brownmiller finally gave an ostensible source; a judge friend told her the 2% figure.

kartu3 · 2018-09-25T06:59:23+00:00

Must share link, showing where the "2%" lie comes from.

The Truth behind Legal Dominance Feminism's Two Percent False Rape Claim Figure (2000, Edward Greer, Loyola Marymount University)

Three Pinoccios "awarded" to the viral graphic on rape statistic by Washington Post FactChecker:

The truth about a viral graphic on rape statistic

transoceanicdeath · 2018-09-25T07:12:45+00:00

This 2-10% number is only the minimum possible number of false reports because an unknown number of cases not proven may also be false!

But you don't know if they are counting those as true or just throwing them out. The guidelines aren't saying to automatically count them as true. They are saying to not automatically count them as false just because they meet one of those descriptions. Most likely they are just taking the total number that were definitely false and comparing it to the total number that definitely weren't and leaving the unknown's out. Or, that's where they're getting the range from. 2% if all the unknowns are legit. 10% if all the unknowns are false. But, there's really not enough information to tell what's going on.

konous · 2018-09-25T07:51:28+00:00

Even as an avowed WRA the amount of obsequious bullshit that comes out of MensLib is ridiculous.

GuyWithTheStalker · 2018-09-25T09:13:08+00:00

Jesus Christ, dude... What difference does it make?

Do the right thing no matter what.

boringcarpets · 2018-09-25T17:29:30+00:00

Menslib is feminist nonsense, best to give them a stiff ignoring

pjay321 · 2018-09-25T19:08:48+00:00

https://www.ncjrs.gov/txtfiles/dnaevid.txt

"Every year since 1989, in about 25 percent of the sexual assault cases referred to the FBI where results could be obtained (primarily by State and local law enforcement), the primary suspect has been excluded by forensic DNA testing. Specifically, FBI officials report that out of roughly 10,000 sexual assault cases since 1989, about 2,000 tests have been inconclusive (usually insufficient high molecular weight DNA to do testing), about 2,000 tests have excluded the primary suspect, and about 6,000 have "matched" or included the primary suspect.1 The fact that these percentages have remained constant for 7 years, and that the National Institute of Justice's informal survey of private laboratories reveals a strikingly similar 26-percent exclusion rate, strongly suggests that postarrest and postconviction DNA exonerations are tied to some strong, underlying systemic problems that generate erroneous accusations and convictions."

Title	Menslib on false rape accusations
Author	AloysiusC
Upvotes	72
Comments	38
Date	September 22, 2018 9:24 PM UTC (7 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/9i37mf/menslib_on_false_rape_accusations/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/menslib-on-false-rape-accusations.893558 https://theredarchive.com/post/893558

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