Why can't I be a feminist for men's rights?

EricAllonde · 2017-08-30T02:43:22+00:00

Why can't I be a feminist for men's rights?

The short answer is that feminism is actively working against men's rights. It's working to make men's lives worse, not better.

Now, you may be unaware of this fact. You may not personally want to do harm to men in that way. However, the ideology of feminism is doing it in your name and while claiming to have your support (through your self-identification as a feminist) for what it's doing.

It was realising this fact that made Cassie Jaye renounce the label of "feminist". As she said, "It wasn't learning about men's rights that made me decide to leave feminism. It was learning about feminism that made me decide to leave feminism".

Here's a summary I wrote up yesterday:

https://www.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/6wgv3n/toxic_masculinity_and_privilege/dm8pgkp/

My apologies for the slightly harsh tone of the comments, they were directed at a rather stubborn male feminist idiot.

So if you still want to continue being a feminist, why don't you tell us all what you're going to do to stop your sister feminists from actively working against men's rights?

a-man-from-earth · 2017-08-30T02:32:55+00:00

If you are a feminist like Christina Hoff Sommers, then you can be for men's rights. But you'll find, as Cassie Jaye, the filmmaker of The Red Pill, did, that you'll be attacked or shunned by most of modern feminism.

The problem with modern feminism is that they cannot accept any criticism on their dogmas, which are based on their mythology which is actually sexist in nature. Terms like patriarchy and toxic masculinity make it almost impossible to find common ground between feminism and men's rights.

Lupinfujiko · 2017-08-30T01:40:08+00:00

Wage Gap
(White) Male Privilege

These are at direct odds between the two camps.

levelate · 2017-08-30T01:28:49+00:00

if you are a feminist that is for 'sanity, reason and compassion' then more power to you.

but yours is not mainstream feminism, actual 'effects in the world' feminism'.

when mainstream feminists/feminism show sanity, reason or compassion, then i am here listening.

fengpi · 2017-08-30T02:06:19+00:00

Sane feminism is a proper application of Enlightenment ideas and is totally compatible with what most of the MRM is into. And its most reasonable demands were largely implemented already, but I can see obvious areas yet to be addressed.

The dominant paradigm of feminism, which superseded the sane kind, requires you believe in a series of unquestionable but scientifically and logically-untenable articles of faith, any one of which would be a deal-breaker for a person who does not already agree with its presuppositions. Or, at the very least, its articles of faith stretch credulity a great deal.

You sound like a sane feminist to me. It's unfortunate that the label has been given a bad name by the nutcases who currently traffic in misinformation, hectoring and tendentious grievance-based analyses. It largely seems to be a lot of college-educated white girls who want to cash-in on whatever benefit there is from being a victim and interpersonal power-plays like whacking men over the head with a sanctimonious "SEXISM" club.

RapeMatters · 2017-08-30T03:03:48+00:00

Here's the thing:

Call yourself whatever you want. Most of us live in free (mostly) countries. You can call yourself both if you want to. However, you can't be upset when you're associated with the people that you freely identify with.

So when I say that feminist academics have been protecting female rapists and domestic abusers, and I provide evidence of such attempts (which can be provided upon request), you can't be upset if you're associated with that. You chose to be called a feminist.

When feminists fight to prevent rape laws from being gender neutral in India and Israel in order to protect women from ever being charged with rape, you can't be upset if you are associated with that. You chose to be.

Call yourself what you want, but own it. It's one of the reasons why Cassie Jaye chose not to be a feminist. She also chose not to be an MRA.

All I ask is that if you choose to identify as a feminist - which is your choice - every time a feminist stands up to protect female rapists by alleging all/almost all rapists are male, stand up and call them out on it that you are a feminist and they are sexist scum. Every time a feminist stands up to say "women only commit domestic violence in self defense", stand up and call them out on it that you are a feminist and they are sexist scum.

Don't lend your voice to sexists. Oppose them, even if they are in your camp.

Also, I would give the same advice to MRAs.

EDIT: Also, as an aside, I used to be a feminist. It was attempting to bring the issue of female-on-male rape to the limelight that got me viciously attacked by the feminists I used to call "friends". Interesting story, and I can dig it up if you like. It's here on reddit somewhere.

Demonspawn · 2017-08-30T04:26:02+00:00

Why can't I be a feminist for men's rights?

Because there's only 2 types of feminists:

The man-haters.
Those who claim "not all feminists" when people point to the man-haters, but do nothing to confront the man-haters.
Those who actually confronted the man-hater feminists and got shit on so much by #1 and #2 that they no longer call themselves feminists.

If you continue to argue for men's rights as a feminist, you will quickly find yourself a member of the 3rd group.

steasybreakeasy · 2017-08-30T01:47:13+00:00

Perhaps the term, "Humanist" would be better.

fatdog1111 · 2017-08-30T02:53:55+00:00

No one is stopping you.

But you have to be aware that feminism is also contributed to the struggles men face related to restrictive gender roles.

Duluth Model of Domestic Violence. Conveived by a feminist. Still referenced and utilized by police departments in certain states. Yeah, she came out against it but this was DECADES after the damage had been done.

Mary Koss, feminist researcher, erasing male rape victims from statistics. She declared that nobody should label what happened to them "Rape". Imagine how many lives would've been saved had this not happened? How many of those desperate men could have had the supports at a pivitol moment in their mental state?

N.O.W advocating against the creation of Shared Parenting in law, claiming it would open the door for abusive fathers to remain in their children's lives.

Related to The Red Pill, you should also be agahst at the treatment Cassie Jaye received from Australian Media and Australian Feminists. She's a feminist who is also aware of how the movement turned its back on her the minute she decided to give MRAs a fair shake.

Those are some examples and there are plenty more documented and collated.

This is what I would call a journey you need to take as you support Men's Rights.

A lot of MRAs here were feminists too who swore off the label after similar levels of mistreatment dolled out to the likes of Cassie and others who go to bat for men.

I also want you to consider this: We are now in the midst of a massive boom in "Grrl Power". Tons of companies and media pushing "Female Empowerment" by treating them like they're the better sex while depicting men as shallow, violent, angry, one-dimensional louts. And boys as dumb. Quite sexist don't you think?

iainmf · 2017-08-30T05:57:23+00:00

Here is a good overview of some of the objections to feminism.

A non-Feminist FAQ

HeForeverBleeds · 2017-08-30T02:44:43+00:00

Feminism by definition is the advocacy of women and girls, so technically you can be a feminist as well as an MRA, because you can advocate for both women and girls and men and boys

Personally, my main issue with feminists is their tendency to subscribe to ideas like "male privilege" and "women are the oppressed / victims; men are the oppressors / abusers" and "sexual violence is a tool used by men to keep women in fear (implied: female-perpetrated sexual violence against males isn't a cultural issue)", etc. that by default marginalize the issues faced by men and boys

Because if one believes males are the privileged class, one must conclude that males either face no discrimination due to their gender or only an insignificant amount. Hence why it's so common for feminists to say talking about men's rights "derails" from the real problem and that men's rights are not comparable to women's and women's are way worse, etc.

But like I said, this is a tendency I see with feminists, so it doesn't mean every self-proclaimed feminist thinks like this

cld8 · 2017-08-30T03:00:55+00:00

It depends what you mean by feminist. Many self-identified feminists truly believe in equality, and these people (such as yourself) should agree with everything the men's rights movement stands for.

However, feminist advocacy organizations in many countries have become increasingly radical over the last couple of decades. At this point, many of them are female supremacist organizations, and all but admit it. However, since they are still using the feminist label, they are able to get support from people who believe in equality.

abend954 · 2017-08-30T04:48:49+00:00

I believe that would make you an egalitarian.

TechnoSam_Belpois · 2017-08-30T04:54:23+00:00

This question comes up a lot, and the short answer is that it doesn't matter what you call yourself.

The biggest reason to not call yourself one is so you don't have to deal with the baggage. The most broad example I can think of is that most feminists believe women are generally disadvantaged in life while men are generally advantaged. What people like yourself have realized is that it's a bit more complicated than that.

So if you tell people you're a feminist, they'll get the wrong idea about what you stand for. Depending on the context, it might not matter. Casual conversation with co-workers for example. But I can still see situations like:

Co-worker: what do you think we should do to fix the wage gap?

You: Well actually, the data shows that it's mostly down to individual choices, so I don't think a lot needs to be done.

Co-worker: but I thought you were a feminist?

Then you have to qualify. Eventually you have to qualify everything, because the contents of the movie run completely counter to mainstream feminism. So in my book, it's better to not apply a label at all and deal with your stances individually.

I don't call myself an MRA even though I'm sympathetic to the movement and largely agree with most of what's said here. It's just not worth the baggage, I'd rather explain my opinions from the ground up, supplying my sources, methodology, and worldview biases along the way. This way I am very clear about what I believe in and it forces people to have an intelligent conversation with me if they want to know what I'm about.

contractor808 · 2017-08-30T03:51:45+00:00

You could I suppose. It matters more what "feminist" actually entails in terms of belief system rather than adopting the label. If you agreed with the positions of the men's rights advocates, then that would put you at odds with what "establishment feminism" in academia, politics, and media believe and advocate. I think the majority of the loudest and most influential feminists, and their supporters, would have a bigger problem with you calling yourself a feminist that many MRAs would. Cassie Jaye got a lot of funding for the movie from MRAs while she still presented herself as a feminist.

I think a better question is "Who in the men's rights movement used to be feminists and why did they stop calling themselves one?"

Juan_Golt · 2017-08-30T05:12:17+00:00

You can be whatever you like, by all means attempt to reclaim feminism.

In practice, everyone agrees that they want equality, but no one agrees on what defines equality, and which policies will achieve that goal.

TimHZRD · 2017-08-30T11:44:56+00:00

Feminism used to be for everyone. However, a majority of the people calling themselves feminists have anti-male and pro-female ideals. "Feminism" based subreddits actively ban people who don't agree with them and automatically put blame on males when it comes to issues.
You can be an activist for everyone, just know what ideals you risk others may think you represent in feminism.

NerdyWeightLifter · 2017-08-30T13:06:24+00:00

IMHO, you are describing the position of a great number of women. I don't know anybody that actually thinks men and women should not be treated equally, especially not here.

The snag comes when it gets into politics. Facts and evidence go out the window. Everyone has empathy for female suffering. It's innate. At an interpersonal level, this is mostly all fine and dandy, but at a political level, it's widely abused. Many organizations are funded based on playing this game. Over time, the claims being made to maintain this become ever more crazy. Many are now banging so hard past any even any semblance of credibility, and yet they have to maintain the anger of as many people as they can to maintain their power, influence and money.

They're criminalising bullshit like "manspreading", pretending that no man can ever be the victim of domestic violence, subverting basic premises of justice like burden of proof, family courts just screw men by the thousands. The largest single cause or death in 18-49yo males is now suicide.

This has to stop. It's culturally pathological. It will destroy our culture if we let it continue.

2017-08-30T18:58:54+00:00

Because a feminist supporting men's issues is an egalitarianism or a humanist. Feminism is about the promotion of women's issues (the statement that it's "just about equality" is an example of the Motte and Bailey fallacy). There's nothing wrong with promoting women's issues as long as you also allow men to promote their issues. However when you're doing both you're just promoting human rights and it is illogical to gender the term.

hottake_toothache · 2017-08-30T19:44:14+00:00

"Patriarchy" is the devil to feminism. Their perspective is that men are the problem and women are the priority.

Pretending to address men's issues from that perspective is nothing but narcissistic gaslighting.

rodrigogirao · 2017-08-30T21:43:49+00:00

Why can't I be a klansman for black rights?

IHeartDay9 · 2017-08-30T22:23:27+00:00

Feminism and men's rights are two sides of the same coin. Trying to dismantle the system of gender based prejudice and assumptions that hurt both men and women, though in different ways. We should be natural allies instead of enemies.

Mr_MRAnarchist · 2017-08-30T13:06:04+00:00

Being a feminist for men's rights is like being a chemotherapy drug for cancer. Feminism is actively trying to destroy men and masculinity in the western world.

2017-08-30T07:43:49+00:00

I recently watched The Red Pill.

didn't hear a single thing in that movie I disagreed with. Not one single thing.

Then you're not a feminist.

Title	Why can't I be a feminist for men's rights?
Author	fatdog1111
Upvotes	12
Comments	47
Date	August 30, 2017 1:21 AM UTC (8 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/6wvu2z/why_cant_i_be_a_feminist_for_mens_rights/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/why-cant-i-be-a-feminist-for-mens-rights.915104 https://theredarchive.com/post/915104

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