My son is due October 6th, and my wife has brought up circumcision. I can't seem to change her mind on it.

2017-07-25T04:56:35+00:00

Make it very clear that it's not her choice. Do not sign any forms and while your son is in the hospital,

DO NOT LET HIM OUT OF YOUR SIGHT

Hospitals are shady asswipes. They can't cut him if you don't let them, but if you let him out of your sight it can and will happen without your consent.

bufedad · 2017-07-24T20:50:47+00:00

My main argument is that it's is a 100% unnecessary procedure, which she counters with it reduces chances of HPV, HIV, UTI's and other health issues in males.

Those are myths.

They do help with UTI's, but I think it's about 3000 circumcisions to prevent a single UTI (which is treatable with antibiotics).

Edited to add: Why are you trying to convince her? You should not cut off part of your child's body unless you both agree. She should be trying to convince you. Tell her it's not happening.

duckordian · 2017-07-25T05:15:12+00:00

Tell her if she circumcises herself, then she can circumcise the son.

Pro-tip: If she agrees, she's fucking insane and leave her.

ShinobiSmithy191 · 2017-07-25T03:08:23+00:00

"No penis, no opinion"

Seriously though, the fact that one party is adamant on it and one is not 100% convinced on it, it should fall to "not going to happen" especially since it's literally a body altering modification on a fucking child, people get enraged when toddlers are given ear studs but not when they take blades to a boy's dick?

Put your foot down, say you object to it and you refuse to allow any unnecessary procedure to be performed

JayJayEcks · 2017-07-24T21:59:28+00:00

Male circumcision is not the equivalent of getting your ears pierced.

It should be a choice for a man-child to get this procedure. Not his father, not his mother... the individual who will bear the brunt of this for the rest of his life.

Can she not understand this concept?

His choice. Not hers.

A simple mistiming of the cut itself by a middling surgeon could destroy this boy, who shall become a man's ability to derive any sort of pleasure from the act of procreation or even masturbation. To be surrounded, the world over by people who can derive joy from the thing you cannot because someone who is not you made the decision before you could speak?

Or how about just the inability to urinate?

Or something in-between?

And we wonder why male suicide is at an all time high. This a subject few men would dare speak of, if they did receive a bad cut.

jamminnummeruno · 2017-07-24T23:47:07+00:00

No one is Europe does it and there are lower rates of diseases. I know a guy who got cut in adulthood due to an issue with his foreskin. He says sex sucks now that he has no foreskin. Says it's like wearing a condom.

girlwriteswhat · 2017-07-24T23:40:54+00:00

Ask her if she thinks her son will be having sex before he's old enough to decide for himself if he wants to be circumcised.

The UTI argument is from bogus research, even granting that it takes hundreds of circumcisions to prevent one UTI, and that UTIs are easily treatable with antibiotics (or even cranberry juice, frankly--I successfully treated my son's UTI and prevented recurrence with what he used to call "magic juice").

The initial US studies on UTIs were performed when infant circumcision was routine. A significant portion of the control group were babies who, for health reasons, were not circumcised--babies with birth defects, preemies, etc. These babies would be expected to have higher rates of a variety of infections. Healthy, full term babies who were not circumcised were rare, and none of the circumcised group would have had health problems predisposing them to infections.

This ridiculously biased study was no better than studies in the 1890s through the 1940s purporting that it cured/prevented epilepsy, clubfoot, spinal paralysis, blindness, etc.

On top of that, common hygiene advice from US health services actually causes infection in intact babies. It's very common for nurses and other staff to advice retracting the foreskin at every diaper change, but this actually causes pain, injury, and vectors of infection.

You could, perhaps, tell her that diaper changing will be easier if she does leaves him intact.

In babies, the foreskin is fused to the glans with the same kind of tissue that attaches your fingernails to their nail beds. Before a circumcision, they're separated using a flat instrument--no cutting has even been done, and the baby is already screaming its lungs out because you're ripping apart highly enervated tissue.

The result of this is not just the incision itself, but that the entire glans is basically an open sore, sitting in a diaper soaked in urine and feces. It would be like having your fingernail ripped off, and then sticking it in an unflushed toilet. In order to avoid infection, you have to really pay attention, and you have to practice intense hygiene until everything's healed.

On the other hand, an intact penis, you wipe with a baby wipe the way you'd wipe your kid's fingers. That's it. The foreskin itself prevents any fecal matter from getting into the urethra. It's fused to the glans, so there's nothing getting UNDER it and caught in non-existent folds. And even if a tiny bit gets into the very small opening, it's flushed out with sterile urine regularly.

Generally, the foreskin doesn't even start to detach until after the kid's out of diapers, so essentially, you're good until he's able to pull his own foreskin back in the bath and wag it around to get it clean all by himself.

Why the hell would she want the extra work?

Circumcision has also been demonstrated to interfere with establishing breastfeeding, and interrupt attachment between mother and child.

BlindGardener · 2017-07-25T06:10:28+00:00

Make it clear to the doctors that there will be no circumcision. They can't do it without both of your signatures. Tell the doctors bluntly, and give them a legal document saying so. Make it clear that your wife and you are divided on it, and as such, the surgery should not proceed.

jeff_the_nurse · 2017-07-25T01:20:31+00:00

Ask her why, if it's no big deal, why isn't she cut, too?

Ask her why, if it's a harmless procedure, why do boys need restraints?

Ask her if she's willing to remove all of his teeth eventually, since it means he won't get cavities?

Point out that he has a greater chance (1 in 11,100) of dying during his circumcision than he does of ever actually needing to be circumcised (1 in 16,667 men require a therapeutic circumcision later in life).

Last, but not least, I've got four words: his body, his choice.

mwobuddy · 2017-07-24T21:36:41+00:00

Ask her if you guys will circumcise your daughter when she gets born.

she will just say "well you're cut, do you have problems when it comes to feeling during sex?" which of course I don't, but I don't know any different either.

You don't feel at full intensity. She is fine with removing sexual pleasure from her son. That's something for her to chew on. Does she hate males that much>

The-os2 · 2017-07-25T08:19:24+00:00

Lots of people here trying to use rational arguments. She will not listen to that. I'd say man up and demand she will not do it. Go to the doctors office and let it be known that you do not consent to the circumsision. Be pro-active, rationality towards her wont help.

2017-07-24T23:40:53+00:00

Have her watch this: https://youtu.be/GjUCR44qZLE

2017-07-24T20:41:59+00:00

Have a look at the myths and the facts here: http://pathwaystofamilywellness.org/Informed-Choice/circumcision-medically-unnecessary/Fact-vs.-Fiction.html

93re2 · 2017-07-25T01:37:04+00:00

she counters with it reduces chances of HPV

A vaccine exists for HPV, and some studies have actually shown an INCREASED prevalence of HPV in circumcised men.

HIV

The studies purporting to show that MGM was an efficacious way of preventing HIV suffered from massive methodological flaws and are additionally inapplicable to a Western context.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22320006

It's interesting to note that in a study that showed that in Tanzania, circumcised WOMEN were far less likely to have HIV then intact women, the authors rejected the possibility of a causal relationship, and stated that there must be some unknown confounding variable involved.

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/265824402_Female_Circumcision_and_HIV_Infection_in_Tanzania_for_Better_or_for_Worse

UTI's

Studies purporting to show a reduced prevalence of UTIs in circumcised male babies also, again, suffered from serious methodological flaws such as a lack of controlling for major confounding variables, including prematurity and forced retraction.

http://www.cirp.org/library/disease/UTI/

It is worth noting additionally that UTIs are rare in male babies, especially those who have not been subjected to the abuse of forced retraction. They are far more common in girls--in which case, they are treated with antibiotics, not amputation.

Oklawolf · 2017-07-25T01:42:59+00:00

I can say one thing beyond any doubt - my circ did nothing whatsoever to stop UTIs. I got them anyway, plus a ton of resentment and anger that a part of my body was cut off with no anesthetic for no good reason. That "no good reason" being the UTI excuse itself.

His body, his choice. The debate should stop right there.

2017-07-25T02:33:14+00:00

If she feels it is so normal, make her watch a procedure.

Mitchell78 · 2017-07-25T07:41:40+00:00

Put your fucking foot down that it won't happen!

2017-07-25T09:09:11+00:00

Your son isn't your wife's property.

It should be his decision, not hers.

If she can't listen to reason or she thinks she's the only one in charge, then I'm sorry to say your marriage is already full of problems.

There is a lot of proof out there, just give her everything you have, thousands of papers on how MGM is bad. How FMG is already illegal.

It's already bad enough that you even need to convince somebody not to mutilate children at birth.

MRA-automatron-2kb · 2017-07-25T15:53:14+00:00

It's important that you win this battle.

This will not only help your son but it will break the circumcision cycle for generations of boys in his future lineage.

Good luck and well done !

dirtyMAF · 2017-07-25T01:25:25+00:00

Tell her that you know intact men that are very happy to have been left that way. I'm one. You are a major decider in this and since you don't want it done it can't happen. Plenty of people on here have given excellent reasons for not circumcising. She needs to hear those in a calm manner. After that if she were still insistent, if I were in that situation that would be someone I would not want to be with anymore and would find a legal course to prevent the circumcision followed by divorce.

codaclouds · 2017-07-25T07:14:14+00:00

Tell her there are guys out there who have literally disowned their own parents over being cut.

RedPillAlphaBigCock · 2017-07-25T08:09:10+00:00

Really really simply: We will let him choose when he is 18. [DONE]

It would be wrong of us to tattoo or pearse him without his consent

2017-07-25T09:45:11+00:00

she will just say "well you're cut, do you have problems when it comes to feeling during sex?" which of course I don't

I've read articles from guys who weren't cut that became cut.

there's a difference.

DarkLorde117 · 2017-07-25T10:03:30+00:00

Show her this video.

Also make it very clear that it is her job to convince you to let her mutilate your child's genitals. This is not up for debate. You are not convincing her not to. You are telling her that she does not have the right to make such an impactful choice for your child and that this is a choice that can only be made by the child, knowing all of the risks, because he is the only one who has any investment in this decision and making it for him before he can even talk is nothing short of a violation of his basic human rights which you, as his father, will not tolerate.

You may well need to start a fight over this. Do not hesitate.

Factushima · 2017-07-25T11:06:04+00:00

It's not her dick! If they want it cut then that is their choice not hers. HPV, HIV and UTI's are of no consequence because the guy can make a decision about how he wants his penis before he should be sexual active.

Several of the studies claiming health benefits came from Africa and the results cannot be replicated.

Also, the foreskin has a function. It's not useless.

In any event, it's not her call. None of her business in fact.

Shadowless323 · 2017-07-24T21:16:06+00:00

What are her reasons for wanting it done?

Be honest with her, how do you think this will hurt your relationship knowing she is willing to have a potentially lethal operation/major complications that will affect him for the rest of his life. How will it hurt your relationship knowing she "overruled" your opinion in the matter to give your son a choice in the matter later in life instead of taking away his choice?

Also please watch video's of it being done with her, that alone may convince her not to.

Mode1961 · 2017-07-25T10:16:40+00:00

My argument would be simple 'If we had a girl and I wanted to snip of part of her clit or labia, what would you say to me"

structo2 · 2017-07-25T11:25:22+00:00

Her entire argument is based on ignorance and prejudice. She mentioned the ring procedure, its called plastibell and it does involve cutting, contrary to popular belief. Its very painful because it slowly cuts off the blood flow to the foreskin and begins to decay until it falls off. It has many of the same complications as the other procedures do, it could be argued that its even worse with its results. I suggest you show her the elephant in the hospital on youtube and a website called yourwholebaby.com for research and studies from the worlds most prestigious university's and national and international organizations.

Factushima · 2017-07-25T12:17:54+00:00

There is a vaccine for HPV that they should get, moot point.

The HIV risk is infinitesimal. Absurd argument.

UTI's are readily treatable and certainly no excuse for cutting off a part of a baby.

This woman has no soul.

disposableaccount900 · 2017-07-25T12:51:11+00:00

"well you're cut, do you have problems when it comes to feeling during sex?"

Let me whip out my "talking about my dick" throwaway, then, and bring some in-between experience to the table! I was circumcised as an infant but whoever did it didn't do a complete job. So I have a small amount of the hyper-sensitive tissue left because they didn't get it all. Let me tell you, the intactivists don't lie: it's extremely sensitive and feels amazing. I can't imagine what having the full thing would be like, and it's kinda bittersweet having a constant reminder of what I'm missing out on.

Even outside of the sexual mechanics of the thing, being circumcised brings other problem. Cycling and running can be extremely painful, what with friction between the head and underwear. Even just sitting here flaccid, the pressure of the fabric against the head is always there, always feeling a bit uncomfortable. Not only that, but as a botch-job, I get pubes tangled in the remnants of the foreskin and pulled. Yeowch.

Sex ed class was extremely confusing because nobody ever mentions that mistakes sometimes get made. I was one of them, but I could have had it a lot worse. There are stories of too much tissue bring removed, and then the poor boy has pubes coming out of his shaft because that's how everything healed. There are stories of men having incredibly painful erections because there's not enough tissue. And then there is the especially tragic story of David Reimer, who had his penis destroyed by a botched circumcision, was raised as a girl and wound up killing himself.

I don't hold a grudge against my parents, but if I ever have a son there is no way I'm letting anyone take a knife to his penis unless there's a damn good medical reason. I sincerely hope you can talk some sense into your wife.

Lumberingfeather · 2017-07-25T13:34:32+00:00

Just tell her NO.

Baltiless · 2017-07-25T14:41:08+00:00

The evidence about the laughable benefits of circumcision is out there. Trying to convince your wife rationally is certainly the best course of action. If she won't budge you need to put your foot down and refuse to consent to the procedure. Also make it clear to the doctors and the hospital that you do not consent to it.

I knew someone who was in a similar situation (embarrassingly in this case it was the wife who was anti-circumcision and the husband who was pro.) She gave him all the rational evidence in the world about why circumcision is stupid and he would not change his mind. In the end she simply put her foot down and said she would not agree to the procedure and it didn't matter how he felt. Baby did not get circumcised. Husband was annoyed for a while but he got over it, just like your wife will.

Edit: Show her this thread about a guy who's impotent because of a botched circumcision. Complications like that are rare, but why take even a small chance for a procedure that has no real benefits?

MRA-automatron-2kb · 2017-07-25T15:36:38+00:00

Maybe this chart can help...

.

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-6nJIVSYwqdA/UTK2EmHTzSI/AAAAAAAAA48/I2pqFwklStY/s1600/Sorrells-Chart.jpg

redmagistrate50 · 2017-07-25T15:38:33+00:00

She says it reduces chances of getting diseases? Even if all the theories about that were proven tomorrow they still wouldn't stack up to the disease mitigation of a condom.

Show her a video of when everything goes right, and the baby, soon to be your child still screams in pain. They still cry and bleed for days.

And ask her if she'd be fine with cutting off your potential daughter's clitoris. Throw it out there, if it sounds horrible that's because it is.

As to her asking you if you ever lack for sensation ask her how would you're supposed to know, that's like asking someone born with no hands if they feel the lack of sensation from nor having fingertips. She can find out for herself though, she's no doubt intact, ask her to compare the sensation between her clitoris and her outer thigh. I'm being hyperbolic but it's all to make a point.

If this is important to you don't stop fighting. It's a bit of barbarism left over from the bronze age, and it needs to be stopped.

goodfoobar · 2017-07-25T16:46:37+00:00

"well you're cut, do you have problems when it comes to feeling during sex?" which of course I don't, but I don't know any different either.

Gently brush the back of you hand. You are stimulating pain nerve endings that remain in cut penises. Gently brush the palm of your hand. You are stimulating tickle nerve endings that exist in the foreskin in high concentrations. This should give you a partial example of what your missing sensation wise.

Edit: Thread covering this topic. https://www.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/6itbi0/circumcision_sensation/

Secksiignurd · 2017-07-25T16:50:08+00:00

This is a body integrity issue. This is you're son's body integrity issue. If she was really egalitarian, she'd leave that choice to him.

JestyerAverageJoe · 2017-07-25T18:19:07+00:00

Make your wife watch a video of a circumcision in action. The Red Pill documentary includes such a scene. Force her to observe it.

Ask her, "Your body, your choice? But why is his body also your choice?"

Ask her, if you were having a daughter, if she would consent to having your newborn daughter's labia clipped -- you know, purely for health reasons, and if you do it when she's young she won't remember the loss in sensation! If not, why not?

Ask her if she'd be willing to allow a surgeon to remove her clitoral hood without anesthetic. How about that hypothetical daughter's, again? She's less likely to get a UTI if you do it! Totally justification, right?

Your wife does not have the right to mutilate your newborn son's body.

rg57 · 2017-07-25T06:12:14+00:00

it reduces chances of HPV, HIV, UTI's and other health issues in males

The difference is minimal, and is reduced to zero when proper hygiene and safer sex practices are used. Why does your wife think your baby is going to be having sex? He can make this decision for himself when the times comes, if he really wants to.

Bottom line, it's his choice. Tell her that even if you're OK with it, and even if your other son is OK with it, it's not really ANY of your choice. It's your new son's choice, and his alone.

I want to say that you should tell her you'll do to her whatever she does to your boy, but that would get you sent to prison, so... not a good idea.

Why is she so intent on cutting him? It's creepy.

nugymmer · 2017-07-25T09:44:21+00:00

Best way I've been able to handle this, is to bring up abortion. If she is pro-choice on that issue, then ask her how she would feel if someone denied her an abortion based on the "scientific" evidence that "proves" that it is tantamount to murder.

She might be one of those idiots who think that a child is their property. In that case, I'd suggest breaking up with her because you don't ever want to marry a woman who cannot even respect her son's genitals.

2017-07-25T12:38:25+00:00

This isn't a logic issue. Women don't think that way. You won't be able to reason her over to your side. It is an emotional issue. Your wife does not respect you.

I'd suggest you read up on dread game.

2017-07-25T13:08:04+00:00

I have seen somebody else posted another video already, but make her watch this, prefferably with sound. If she can sit through it and still be adamantly pro circumcision you should consider not letting the baby out of your sight while in the hospital and not making another one with her.

Or you can try to be sneaky and tell her that it's fine if she does it to your son but that you will want your daughter to be circumcised too if you ever have one. Maybe switching sides will change her mind.

DakotaEE · 2017-07-25T13:14:16+00:00

She's not going to listen to arguments, you're just going to have to put your foot down and say "No."

goalposthead · 2017-07-25T14:08:06+00:00

Would you cut off a girls labia to prevent a yeast infection?

NoFuryLikeKristine · 2017-07-25T16:05:30+00:00

Infant boys experience a lot of trauma during circumcision. I think people who downplay its seriousness are just ignorant of how traumatizing the process is, and they don't want to know. Just because you don't remember trauma as an infant doesn't mean it magically goes away. It would be much less damaging if we did it to toddlers, but still traumatizing to them.

It literally changes your brain, so it affects you more the younger you are. It's like saying it's not child abuse if you rape an infant because they're not going to remember it. Or it's ok to rape a woman because she's in a coma and will not consciously know it happened. Or it's like how victims of pedophilia remember the abuse as a positive thing because they were groomed to accept it. It's commonly believed that pedophilia (and actual rape) is wrong, disturbing, and disgusting, whether or not the child enjoyed it, yet people think that intense physical pain towards infants is perfectly fine (and people who call it child abuse are extremists)? Just because it's so common?

I wonder if the reason why so many men have less empathy for other men (or maybe people in general) is because of trauma like this? http://healthland.time.com/2013/01/22/how-disasters-and-trauma-can-affect-childrens-empathy/ This article discusses a study that shows that trauma affecting children at an age when their brains are less developed leads to more selfish behaviors, compared to older children who were able to cope with the trauma better. So trauma affecting an infant probably makes a major difference.

WildHuntsman · 2017-07-25T21:01:22+00:00

Talk about how these supposed health benefits can be easily surpassed by proper sex education. Also, show her footage of a new-natal circumcision if she hasn't already seen one. That may change her mind.

jamminnummeruno · 2017-07-24T23:50:11+00:00

I'm convinced that circumcision causes epigenetic trauma. I have a theory that countries that practise male circumcision have higher incidences of violence and crime.

BaconCatBug · 2017-07-25T05:56:35+00:00

Your wife is a monster and you are a moron for getting married and having kids.

rodrigogirao · 2017-07-25T00:05:07+00:00

Be firm. "Give up or I will dump you." And if she won't, actually do.

MagicTampon · 2017-07-25T06:58:58+00:00

It's preferable to allow the child the opportunity to decide for himself once he's old enough (16, 17 +).

HPV / penile cancer should not be a concern so long as you have him vaccinated against HPV while he is young.

HIV - so far as I am aware, the studies show only benefits in 3rd world countries, though you'd have to check to be sure.

It's really more or less irrelevant however, since the real way to prevent HIV is to use a condom.

Mentioned_Videos · 2017-07-25T10:03:47+00:00

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[NSFW] Infant circumcision procedures	+12 - Have her watch this:
Circumcision	+4 - Watch this video: Using a condom reduces the risk of STDs way more than circumcision, and the main reason why circumcision is used to prevent these diseases is because ther are places like sub saharan africa where contraception isn't available. He...
Circumcision Video with Commentary	+1 - Show her this video. Also make it very clear that it is her job to convince you to let her mutilate your child's genitals. This is not up for debate. You are not convincing her not to. You are telling her that she does not have the right to make suc...

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intactisnormal · 2017-07-25T17:52:38+00:00

For the hard stats and numbers on the so-called benefits you should read the Canadian Paediatrics Paper. Everything's on table 1 if you want to skip there, but you should read the whole thing. It's very informative and not too long.

http://www.cps.ca/documents/position/circumcision

tibbymat · 2017-07-25T04:29:25+00:00

Tell her ask a doctor if it is necessary. You will win with the doctors answer.

Title	My son is due October 6th, and my wife has brought up circumcision. I can't seem to change her mind on it.
Author	[deleted]
Upvotes	74
Comments	90
Date	July 24, 2017 8:39 PM UTC (8 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/6pb7v5/my_son_is_due_october_6th_and_my_wife_has_brought/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/my-son-is-due-october-6th-and-my-wife-has-brought.917267 https://theredarchive.com/post/917267

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