Can /r/MensRights help me prove to a mostly female class, that the Wage Gap is a myth?

SigmundFloyd76 · 2015-04-28T23:12:49+00:00

Jones Paradox: When attempting to convince someone they are crazy or that they subscribe to a "crazy" ideology, YOU are the one who looks crazy!

Source: I made this up based on my experience in family court trying to defend against my clinically mentally ill ex-wife.

Good luck with that.

goodfoobar · 2015-04-28T22:41:20+00:00

You should have a look at /r/MRRef There is a lot of good material there. My understanding is there is not a pay gap but there is an earnings gap. The earning gap for those in there 20's is in favour of women and 40's is in favour of men. Don't know at what age the two meet. There are two jobs where pay gaps do exist and they are porn and fashion. Guess which gender gets paid more.

SlashSero · 2015-04-28T22:40:26+00:00

What kind of class is this? If the audience is not familiar with the scientific method ( or common sense for that regard ) you're going to have a hard time conveying proof and logic. People not familiar with the fundamentals of scientific proof will be more easily appealed by feelings and popular ideas. Facts and statistics do not matter if the audience feels that you are wrong while your opponent can pull facts out of their thin air that feel right for them. Not to mention people, even scientists and professors, are prone to defend their preordained notions and biases about subjects: this is the stubborn nature of mankind. This is why controversial ideas are often dismissed by society even when the proof is there. One of the hardest things in science is convincing the layman, you are not likely going to win such a debate.

If you still wish to try there is a way. To combat such a debate strategy that has a basis on feelings you have to take the defensive. You must not try to push your own arguments ( that will likely be rejected ), rather you must focus on disproving the arguments of your opponent. Study some common notions of why the wage gap exists and produce counter-arguments against those common notions. You must disarm your opponent so that they can not appeal to feelings, only then can you prove your debate opponent is wrong as their foothold crumbles after being proven wrong time after time. This is the kind of debate strategy that is also used against appeal to populism.

2015-04-28T23:35:10+00:00

Wage gap is women working less once they get the passive income of a man.

The man who works more gives half to his wife, so that cancels out any gap.

Juan_Golt · 2015-04-29T00:05:17+00:00

You aren't going to get anywhere trying to change people's beliefs. Even if they accept your evidence their criteria will just keep changing to fit. If you convince them that women work less hours and they will just make it about childcare. Convince them that women choose different jobs and they will make it about society valuing 'women's work' less. Convince them that women don't make the same sacrifices for higher wages and they will make it about socialization.

No matter how much you disprove they will simply find a way to rationalize their beliefs. It's like debating a young earth creationist 'The Devil put the dinosaur bones there.' etc...

If you are trying to change minds, don't attack directly ('The wage gap is a myth! STATS STATS BLAH!'). They will never respond with 'You're clearly right I am mistaken thank you' in response to that kind of assault. Instead it's better to get them thinking about their criteria. Ask questions along these lines.

Why is there a difference between what men and women earn? How much is due to discrimination in business? What percentage is the choices that women make individually?

The idea is to get them to come to a criteria on their own for judging this issue. You can't change someones mind until they have a means of measuring their beliefs.

guywithaccount · 2015-04-29T06:42:57+00:00

We can help you prove it, but we can't make them accept it.

lafielle · 2015-04-29T11:08:54+00:00

There are of course multiple factors at play to explain why the total income of all men divided by the number of working men is different from the income of all women divided by the number of working women.

The facts are that women do not work as many hours as men and aren't as willing to sacrifice their own personal safety and comfort for the benefit of their employers. That's not an empty claim:

In the Netherlands:

78% of full time employees are men (source)
Men work overtime more often (source) and for longer hours (source)
Men travel further and longer to get to their job (source)
Men report sick less often then women (and that does not include pregnancy which is a separate matter altogether) and they stay sick for shorter durations (source)
Men are significantly more likely to work jobs which are dangerous, and as a result men are more likely to be injured at work (source). Moreover, 98% of deaths in the Netherlands due to work-related accidents are men (source).

One might argue that women work harder at home and that may or may not be true (I don't have data on that), but whether it is true or not hardly matters as your boss is not going to pay you for doing your own laundry at home, for example.

She might try to dispute the above by saying that's all from the same source, and that's true. The Central Bureau for Statistics is the agency that calculates the budgets of the Dutch Government, that is by law required to check and verify all political party promises to see if they are financially sound and feasible and that makes predictions for future development used by the government to set policy.

However, all of the above is irrelevant:

"I have brought up source after source, and fact to her, but she refuses to change her mind, she constantly disputes anything I say, but cannon come up without sources or studies herself to support her claims, other than basic skewed averages of weekly, or yearly wages."

You are being set up for a trap: she is trying to get you to prove there is no wage gap.

But that's a reversal of the burden of proof. SHE has to prove that a wage gap exists. Her only evidence is different average wages, and the above argument refutes her claim that discrimination is the cause of this. It is now HER move to prove the wage gap exists. If she cannot provide evidence for the wage gap then she must yield that it does not exist.

Don't let her get away with asserting the wage gap and having you prove the contrary. Remind her ad nausium that she hasn't proven a wage gap exists yet.

Lead each answer with one or two facts. "According to the Central Bureau for Statistics, 78% of full time employees in the Netherlands are men, and only 22% are women. Full time employees will earn more money per hour than part time employees. The wage gap does not exist and you haven't proven otherwise."

Every time she says "wage gap" or "women earn less for the same work" or the likes, interrupt and talk over her loudly saying "which you cannot prove exists" and "which you cannot prove".

Eventually she'll choose the easier way out and switch to admitting women don't earn less for the same work, but instead she will lament that women make choices to earn less because societal pressure forces them to. That means its hammer time.

"So you agree with me that the wage gap is based entirely of voluntary choices women make" and "Thank you for once again admitting the wage gap does not exist, and is entirely a result of women's choices". Hammer in how she just yielded her key point to you and don't let it go.

scdi · 2015-04-29T01:04:17+00:00

prove

There is your first problem. Most people aren't logical about their beliefs, and this is extra true of feminist or those leaning towards such.

GenderNeutralLanguag · 2015-04-29T00:49:42+00:00

Don't make a positive claim. Don't argue that "There is no Wage Gap". Argue, "You have not made your case". Really, an Internet meme isn't proof.

She will cite the BLS data. The raw difference here is the 77cents that gets promoted.

You can then point out with HER source that this isn't a comparison "For the same work". Then with real basic math you can account for differences in hours worked and get a much lower wage gap. You won't get 0, but it will be MUCH lower than commonly cited.

SarcastiCock · 2015-04-28T22:35:10+00:00

https://web.archive.org/web/20140713172759/http://oratorasaurus.tumblr.com/post/47007463161/oratorasaurus-the-so-called-pay-gap

Wargame4life · 2015-04-29T00:23:17+00:00

Boom: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BDj_bN0L8XM

has sources too, just play this video to the morons

Jesus_marley · 2015-04-29T03:16:31+00:00

In my view the issue is one of conflating an earnings gap with a wage gap. There is no wage gap. By law for over 50 years, men and women get paid the exact same wage for the exact same work. The differences in earnings manifest when all other factors are taken into account. Also, most of these measurements are averages of men and women in fields of work rather than specific jobs within that field.

In short, there is an overwhelming amount of evidence that proves that the wage gap is a myth of epic proportions. That said, it is such a popular and easily believable lie that fits so nicely into the victim narrative of female oppression, trying to convince anybody of that fact is largely useless.

rottingchrist · 2015-04-29T03:20:17+00:00

Mostly female class... never going to happen.

Also, from my experience, trying to prove your points or attempting to convince doesn't work on an audience like that. Social shaming, ostracization, condescension, etc. does.

Think of the last time you tried something like what you are trying now. Was the response a patient and reasoned counter-argument or "omg! I can't even talk to you right now!" or "Sure sweetie, buh bye now and go have a date with your hand".

You'll just be wasting your time and energy.

confirmedpenguin · 2015-04-29T05:10:43+00:00

Try this simple thought experiment. If women were paid 77 cents to a man's dollar then why are companies still hiring men? If a male and a female candidates are equally qualified and have equal credentials, work experience, education, etc why don't employers just take a slice of the pie and hire only women and pay them 77% of a man's paycheck?

2015-04-29T21:23:03+00:00

Go to the source: Show her where the $.77 came from - the total aggregate lifetime earnings of all women in the workforce irrespective of career, hours worked, maternity time off, etc.

But sorry dude, you're talking to somoene who is emotionally invested in her victimhood. No facts will change that. You can only hope to change the minds of those watching the debate.

iainmf · 2015-04-28T23:42:51+00:00

You can't deny that, on average, women earn less than men. But that doesn't indicate discrimination, just that men and women have different jobs, work different hours etc.

If you insist that the gender wage gap is a result of discrimination against women, here are a few other claims that must be equally true. By the same logic, young men are discriminated against in favor of young women. Women in their 20s without children out-earn men by as much as $1.08 to every dollar, according to some estimates. It must also be true that white men are discriminated against in favor of Asian-American men, who earn over 5 percent more than white men.

Source

MRSPArchiver · 2015-04-28T22:31:57+00:00

Post text automatically copied here. (Why?) (Report a problem.)

zulu127 · 2015-04-28T23:03:54+00:00

Just ran across this new video on the subject. There is a bunch of sources listed in the comments.

Folsomdsf · 2015-04-29T02:15:28+00:00

No, but math and common sense can. Tell them that all men should be fired if women are willing to work for 77% of the same wage.

Musgabeen · 2015-04-29T03:13:03+00:00

This International Labour Office report on working time around the world (PDF)... has interesting data, like the proportion of workers doing long working hours, by gender, or the people who work less than 35 hours, and the final "The number of workers by hours of work" table. Also theres this nice documentary about the professional choices of men and women.

Francois_Rapiste · 2015-04-29T09:20:16+00:00

Maddox did an amazing video about it https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BDj_bN0L8XM

And it might be a good idea to use some of his same sources and debunk it in a similar way that he does.

throwaway4GG · 2015-04-29T10:07:15+00:00

Scott Adams, writer of the Dilbert cartoon strip and who previously worked in IT himself, recently investigated alleged wage-gap issues in depth. He wrote about his findings on his blog, and also provided extensive references. He did an excellent job describing some of the other factors that are often conflated with gender bias, and it would serve you well to be aware of some of these other factors if you are going to engage in a debate.

His blog post is here: LINK

ghebert001 · 2015-04-29T10:20:02+00:00

Watch Sargon Of Akkad's latest video Why people Haye Feminism Pt.3. (on mobile and getting ready for work...no time for a link).

DougDante · 2015-04-29T12:15:56+00:00

the wage gap is a myth

The wage gap is real. Say it. Believe it.

It is real due to a variety of factors, most of which have nothing directly to do with discrimination.

And young men make less than young women.

One reason is that fewer young men are in college than young women.

So any action to fix the wage gap should help those young men too.

See the FAQ.

2. What is the /r/MensRights perspective on the wage gap?

That includes protecting boys raped by teachers from the grossly discriminatory treatment they get:

Action Opportunity: End the Appearance of Discrimination Against Raped, Drugged, Bullied, and Defrauded Boys and Men at US Department of Education

How can you do well in school if you see everyone is protecting the teacher who raped you?

Or just say nothing.

Ask them if you could be punished for holding certain political views.

Ask them if they support intellectual diversity.

(By the way, it might be helpful to read the student handbook where it talks about the rights of students, and point out where they're violating it after you get them to admit to their biases)

Tell them you don't feel this is a safe environment to discuss the issue.

Do not try to win them over with arguments. If this is a hostile environment where being "wrong" in their eyes will get you punished or expelled, it will not work, and it's not worth the attempt.

By the way, what school is this?

bibeauty · 2015-04-29T14:18:41+00:00

I can only give you my experience. I am a women working as a delivery driver in the us. My male coworker worked at the exact same times I did last week and at the end of the week I made ~$200 more than him in tips

Demonspawn · 2015-04-29T14:24:46+00:00

Here's my simple refutation of the wage gap:

Ask them their source (usually it will be the BOL report). Then ask them how their source defines the statistic (average pay of full time working men vs average pay of full time working women). Then ask if the gender ratio of workers is consistent across all job fields (it is not).

You have just proved that the statistic cannot be used to support the idea of a wage gap. At best, it can be used to demonstrate an earnings gap, but an earnings gap says nothing about women being paid less than men.

Lonemango · 2015-04-29T15:44:35+00:00

Go to the source of those statistics. Show them that Asians make more than white people, then ask them if Asians are getting paid more for doing the same job. Compare white women to black men. Compare hispanic men to white women. Ask them if hispanic men are paid less than white women for doing the same.

caius_iulius_caesar · 2015-04-29T19:44:01+00:00

To persuade someone of anything, his mind must be open to bring changed.

That doesn't seem to be the case here.

2015-04-30T11:00:03+00:00

If you are trying to change people's minds on the wage gap, I wouldn't even talk about the wage gap.

Do a presentation on one of the following: the hours gap, the workplace fatality gap or the college degree gap.

Pick one and do it well.

aksuVOIMAMIES · 2015-05-01T00:10:14+00:00

Don't try to prove it is a myth, offer them a way to solve the problem: male tax. Every year government calculates what the current wage gap is and taxes men more and women less accordingly so that wages even out. This is an obvious solution to the problem.

Title	Can /r/MensRights help me prove to a mostly female class, that the Wage Gap is a myth?
Author	[deleted]
Upvotes	53
Comments	54
Date	April 28, 2015 10:31 PM UTC (11 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/347iav/can_rmensrights_help_me_prove_to_a_mostly_female/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/can-rmensrights-help-me-prove-to-a-mostly-female.981618 https://theredarchive.com/post/981618

Comments