How is this sub different from r/MensRights or r/RedPill?

gratis_eekhoorn · 2023-10-19T10:47:00+00:00

We do not promote generalizing groups based on innate characterisrics here

Feminist groups are directly responsible for blocking attempts of advocating for men (i.e opposing gender neutral definitions of rape and DV, protesting against homeless shelters for men) and countless examples of hate by their prominent and influental figures

Obsession on the notion of masculinity has no benefits, men should be free to be themselves without the pressure of traditionalist roles nor shaming of whatever feminists consider "masculine" at that moment.

Johntoreno · 2023-10-19T08:32:29+00:00

I'm so sorry, we tend to forget that men aren't allowed to be bitter or angry! I was under the mistaken belief that men were allowed to express their emotions, but since you've reminded us that its deeply shameful, we will make sure to suppress all our anger. I'm sure, that's totally healthy and not at all dangerous.

and many of the talking points ('muh feminism') are indistinguishable from the right

Hitler created one of the first animal rights laws. Does that mean we shouldn't support animal welfare because Hitler supported it? I'm not bending over and accepting feminist hatred with all of its "Future is Female, masculinity is toxic", just because some ppl on the right oppose Feminism for their own reasons.

How do you expect men to be anything less than angry when we're collectively blamed for everything bad on earth by Feminists 24/7? Feminism isn't the root of Men's problems but its fucking insufferable with its misandry, its always a thorn in Men's way because of how they monopolize the gender discourse.

where people find and define their masculinity

Why would i want to do that? Masculinity is fine as it is, there's nothing wrong with Men aspiring to be being strong, muscular, brave, honorable, stoic, heroic, assertive etc There's nothing "toxic" about masculinity.

Is this basically red-pill that votes Bernie?

Why hold back on the baseless accusations? You missed a perfect opportunity to call us all Nazbol Incels! You know what? I'd much rather talk to redpillers because at least they don't start the conversation with "HEY YOU FUCKING PRIVILIGED CIS-HET MALE!"

No_Cardiologist_797 · 2023-10-19T14:12:47+00:00

OP's post history includes him blaming a man for being upset his partner slept with someone just before him and harassing people in the Palestine subreddit.

Just downvote and move on

ii-___-ii · 2023-10-19T08:59:14+00:00

Are you implying women don’t ever lie and men are never abused? Because that isn’t true. Not saying all women are terrible or all men have it bad, but it is common for problems men face to be dismissed by others, and this is a place to talk about it.

It’s a subreddit dedicated to problems facing a specific gender. Angry and bitter are common emotions when discussing problems. Different subreddits focus on different topics. It’s the same reason why r/eyebleach isn’t angry or bitter.

Masculinity can mean what you want it to mean to you. I’m not going to tell you you’re not a man for being who you are.

If you want to make a post about positive change, go ahead, and we’ll discuss that instead.

SvitlanaLeo · 2023-10-19T08:59:56+00:00

We don't support misogyny. Misogyny is hatred of women and we don't support it.

To criticize Simone de Beauvoir's followers, Laura Mulvey's followers, Naomi R. Wolf's followers, Michael Kimmel's followers, Allan G. Johnson's followers is important for men's liberation. Men's liberation is impossible without criticizing their conceptions. There are many reasons to criticize all of them harshly.

Should we ignore that Simone de Beauvoir, living in the era of pervasive using men as cannon fodder, wrote "A man would never set out to write a book on the peculiar situation of the human male", meaning that men is just viewed as default humans (not as humans that viewed as cannon fodder)?

Should we ignore that Laura Mulvey and her followers say that men have male gaze? Aren't we against gender stereotypes?

Should we ignore that Naomi R. Wolf and her followers believe that "since middle-class women have been sequestered from the world, isolated from one another, and their heritage submerged with each generation, they are more dependent than men are on the cultural models on offer, and more likely to be imprinted by them"? Didn't they understand that men are dependent on the cultural models on offer because masculinizing gender policing towards men and boys is extremely harsh?

Or maybe we should ignore that Michael Kimmel's followers believe that "the whole concept of men's rights is wrong"? So Michael Kimmel's followers believe that the right not to be conscripted is not a right. And the right not to face masculinizing gender policing is also not a right. Men don't need this rights, they just need to "stop being toxically masculine" without protection them from gender policing before. It would never work.

Or we should ignore that Allan G. Johnson narrowed the definition of the word sexism, saying that only male privilege is sexist? And that there are no misandry at all?

Mainstream feminists have long told men's rights activists that they simply don't know feminist theory. Well, now they will have to face those who support real men's liberation and at the same time know feminist theory and see its shortcomings.

Many of them like to generalize, use the word "men". And it's considered to be okay. But to generalize, using the word "feminists", even not the word "women", is considered awful misogyny. It's more than double standards because generalizing ideologists is less awful than generalizing people who have such signs as gender, skin color etc.

KatsutamiNanamoto · 2023-10-19T09:04:18+00:00

"to achieve meaningful and positive change" there should be a thoroughly organised men's rights movement, with at least as much resources as worldwide feminist organisations are provided with, and without those organisations monopolizing gender studies/discourse in academic research, as well as generally in RL/Internet; I'm not even mentioning the headstart feminism had with gaining influence, establishing theory, etc.

Well, also we'd need to take power over most (if not all) of the world's governments since they are the main beneficiaries of the discriminated state in which men are today (and were for centuries) and they won't let us go that easily...

astral-mamoth · 2023-10-19T10:31:37+00:00

A few days ago a a post about someone trying to frame Feminism and left wing ideas as inherently missandrist, while promoting the right wing got downvoted to oblivion, because we do not support hate. We are not red-pill.

I like this subreddit for one particular reason, it’s honest. There are many people here feeling bitter, that is true, I am sure there is even a few true Mysoginists in here and those guys can suck it.

But let me ask you: Why is it bad? In other feminist And progresive spaces we have to endure the utter contempt of our peers, no matter how much you acknowledged, shelter and clarify your statements. Any mention of a male problem will be swarmed with people trying to reframe the conversation back at women or just mocking you and endless whatsboutism about how women have it worse. There are dozens of subreddits where people circle jerk about how much they hate men, how dogshit men are but none of them are met with the hostility this subreddit is. Men are tired, they feel hurt what is the problem with having a place where people can talk about their grievances without being looked down upon? Without getting more hate?

People sometimes want to vent , sometimes they want to let off steam and sone times they want to take a jab at one of the shortcomings of feminism without having to preface each statement with “I acknowledge the issues women have”. Sometimes men want to be humans and open about how overwhelmed, angry and exhausted they are. Sometimes we want to say “This sucks” without having to preface it with 4 paragraphs of “Well of course I acknowledge men have many privileges over women, and that women haveto deal with a lot of bad shit, and that we should strive to help women with their issues and blah blah” just to still get shit thrown at us.

This place can reek of resentment and bitterness, but in all honesty is fully understandable. But angrily insulting women is not what we do we also work for things, we discuss real issues, False accusations , Court discrimination, forced conscription, circumcision, male deaths at work,parental rights, etc.

And in an all honesty, if thousands of people tell you time and time again. They have problems with dating and you just keep punching them, Belittling them and mocking them. Why are you surprised they create their own spaces and that those spaces are full of people that are hurt?

Why is female dating strategy and other female oriented subreddits full of people shitting on men excused by “They have trauma” but this isn’t?

Are people here not allowed to express their trauma? Their suffering?

I am very aware we might not be the ideal progressive male space, but trying to pretend we are the same as redpillers is genuinely unfounded, no one here is trying to radicalize anyone, no one here decries “biological truths” about men or women. Most of the harshest criticisms at feminism people here wield are always ideological. And we are never met on those grounds

It’s always the same vain accusation:

“Why are you angry at women?! You just hate women! You are incels ! This is not going to inspire positive change!!!”

You never listen to what we say, you never stop attacking us, every single change in human history has begun with people being angry and bitter over a problem in society.

Do you think the left hates capitalism due to a fundamental dialectical disagreement in the purely ideological realm? We hate it because it makes us miserable. Do you think monarchy was torn down because the peasantry held a deep theological debate over intrinsically inscrutable nature of the divine will? No, they were starving and wanted better life. Do you think people hate facism due to a scientific disagreement on the parameters that the Aryan race is defined? They hate fascim because fascists want to kill everyone.

The entire nature of how societies evolve and develop are based purely on making our life’s better, and guess what a lot of men being bitter is a perfect reasson for having a political movement.

And before Someone tries to twist my words, this isn’t a call to violence or hate. Societies change when they members detect a problem and if 30% of the male population struggles with dating we already have a big problem.

RonCopBadCop · 2023-10-19T11:44:57+00:00

What is it that someone, on the left, is allowed to say about the praxis used by modern day feminism without being told they're "angry and bitter?"

ArmchairDesease · 2023-10-19T14:57:28+00:00

Unfortunately there's a lot of anger and frustration around these topics. I still prefer it here than redpill or mensrights because, despite the emotional tones, the level of discussion is still somewhat better.

Also, the name itself makes it less likely to meet tradcons who just want to restore pure masculinity, which are quite common in those other subs.

tzaanthor · 2023-10-20T08:09:01+00:00

It's so angry and bitter,

Tone policing. You don't have a right to determine what emotions other people have. If you think this space is too angry or bitter pour on your own saccharine.

and many of the talking points ('muh feminism') are indistinguishable from the right...

Literally a fallacious argument. Just because they share views does not make this views wrong. Conversatives share a lot of views with feminists, like how women need to be protected from men, rapacious male behaviour is rampant, and that men are inherently violent, do you denounce feminism for sharing these?

triple_skyfall · 2023-10-19T14:36:36+00:00

Maybe take the time to actually read some of the posts on this sub?

Thal-creates · 2023-10-19T08:52:06+00:00

Not liking feminism doesnt make one right wing. It makes then literate.
The rest are lies. We constantly talk about posutuve change
Extending legal protections and aid prograns that are exclusively given to women to men is left wing. Expanding social security nets is pretty left wing statement.
There is a sub for women roleplaying as men pretending to care about men. Feminist subs promote it all the time. Just dont talk about actual systemic issues or you wilk get banned for not performing the "men are toxic how do we become better and not toxic" circlejerk

untamed-italian · 2023-10-20T14:16:30+00:00

OP is on r/neoliberal, so how the fuck is OP different from a right winger?

househubbyintraining · 2023-10-19T11:10:41+00:00

Wow, İ dont even disagree with you that manosperian ideologies (redpill, incel, mgtow) infect all and every non-feminist mens space. But İ don't even think you know what redpill is, because if you think men complaining about being abused by women is ontollogically evil, then we have brigger problem than some closeted redpillers roaming and posting on this sub.

secondarily, masculinity is not something to converse aboiy, from my understanding of masculinity, it is an institutionalized set of expectations for males and exclusively males. You are treating masculinity like an identity, feminity is an identity, masculinity is not. Some dudes just aestheticize masculinity.

also "positive change" is subjective, 90% of out and proud lefties "mlm-types" say positive change in the context men as a way of say we need to be making men no longer abusers. Abusers are gender neutral. They say positive change to "make men less violent" violence and criminality is gender neutral most women dont get convicted, infact 99% of women who rape don't get convicted. İs it right-leaning to ask for that to change and to say that society literally allows women to rape men and boys in contrast to men who can only rape freely if they know what they're doing.

I was hoping for an environment to share personal stories, where people find and define their masculinity and work with other groups to achieve meaningful and positive change.

this is like sandbox "frolicing puppies" leftism, nothing mature to offer but infantilism. Adult convos have to be had, women are evil, men are evil, lets say this better: people. are. evil. Women need to be held to legal scrutiny because they are NOT, women need to be held accountable because they are NOT, women need to be understood as violent... feminist have failed tremendously to the point of collective willful ignorance and straight up "that's not a feminist issue" when it comes to any of men's issues, and then will hyperemphasize women's issues to minimize men's issues. There is a reason we say 'muh feminism' because feminism is academically oppressing men like the terrified children they are.

tzaanthor · 2023-10-20T08:04:59+00:00

Is this basically red-pill that votes Bernie?

What does that even mean?

Mentomir · 2023-10-20T12:01:14+00:00

What change exactly would you like to see in this subreddit?

Would you like for us to pander to women a bit more? Not criticize modern feminism and internalize male problems more? Or what, exactly?

Low_Rich_5436 · 2023-10-21T06:25:51+00:00

Yep

Except not everyone in the world is american. And feminism does not own the left. And "masculinity" does not need to be found: by definition, being leftists means looking for extrinsic causes for social issues, not "bootstrap" them.

See this place as: leftists who are also critical of feminism because they are leftists.

anomnib · 2023-10-19T11:19:20+00:00

We can definitely use better moderation. The random disorganized rants should probably be segregated to a daily or weekly “unfiltered rants” thread.

Gnome_Child_Deluxe · 2023-10-19T08:52:35+00:00

I have no idea bro it's super hit or miss. I got downvoted into oblivion for calling out an obvious incel rant last night. I don't feel like it used to be this way. Maybe it's an influx of new people because some other subreddit got banned or something.

tzaanthor · 2023-10-20T18:46:14+00:00

We're not here for that red pill thing then.

Title	How is this sub different from r/MensRights or r/RedPill?
Author	Fabulous_Sherbet_431
Upvotes	0
Comments	147
Date	October 18, 2023 10:29 PM UTC (2 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates/comments/17b3bh0/how_is_this_sub_different_from_rmensrights_or/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates/how-is-this-sub-different-from-rmensrights-or.1235652 https://theredarchive.com/post/1235652

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