Feminism in a nutshell

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Play the game. List all the rights women have that men don't. In another column list the ones men have that women don't. Each right is a point. Add them up and compare to see who goes on to win the grand prize!

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while i believe people who label as feminist and support feminism are feminists- whether they're "good" or "bad"; someone who's political affiliation i don't know saying something shitty/uneducated about men or mras are yes a misandrist but not a confirmed feminist.

I'm not gonna throw around labels at someone without proof. Or we're no better than feminists that call any and all misogynists mras. This just isn't a good practice. Assholes don't have to be feminist-affiliated for us to call them out on their bullshit. The above attitude is actually in reality not owned by just feminists, even if it's more common in feminist spaces.

It's important to acknowledge and discuss that there are non-feminists that are anti-mra and misandrists as well. Painting it all as feminism-induced-only isn't helpful in doing that.

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This low effort post does nothing for anyone.

edit: the moderation policy if anyone bothered to read it: No advice animals or other low-effort image or text posts.

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The problem is that these "nitwits" are supported and revered by the "moderate, equality for all people regardless of gender" feminists, rather than being rejected by them. The "nitwits" are the feminist thought-leaders, their spokeswomen and their representatives, and they face almost zero opposition within their ranks. Moreover, the crazy expressed by the extremists is exactly in line with core feminist ideology.

Valorie Solanas wrote the Society for Cutting Up Men manifesto, which called for killing all men. In 1968 she put her belief into action and tried to kill Andy Warhol by shooting him in the chest. While in prison Robin Morgan (1941- ), editor of Ms. Magazine, author of Sisterhood is Powerful in 1970, and Sisterhood is Global in 1984, demonstrated for her release. Ti-Grace Atkinson (1938 - ), then president of the New York Chapter of the National Organization of Women (the US' largest feminist group) called Solanas the first true champion of women's rights.

Sally Miller Gearhart, PhD. (1931- ), founder of the world's first gender studies program at San Francisco State University in 1973, teaching until 1992. Author of The Womanization of Rhetoric in 1979. In 1982 in her manifesto The Future—if there is one—is female called for the reduction of the male population to 10%. She continued to teach for another 10 years after this. Mary Daly, PhD. (1928-2010), tenured professor at Boston College from 1968 to 1999. Author of Gyn/Ecology: The metaethics of radical feminism in 1990 (2638 citations), in an interview, No Man's Land, affirmed her support for Gearhart's position.

*(Above two references with thanks to /u/anonlymouse, for more details and links, see his post here: http://www.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/2nivt4/prominent_feminists_who_have_called_for_culling/)

These idea's follow directly, as a natural consequence from the core feminist theory. Let's cite some others:

Andrea Dworkin wrote "Under patriarchy, every woman's son is her potential betrayer and also the inevitable rapist or exploiter of another woman."

Robin Morgan, mentioned above as the editor of Miss Magazine wrote "I feel that 'man-hating' is an honorable and viable political act, that the oppressed have a right to class-hatred against the class that is oppressing them."

Susan Brownmiller, co-founder of Women against Pornography wrote "[Rape] is nothing more or less than a conscious process of intimidation by which all men keep all women in a state of fear."

Notice how closely these quotes align with and rely on the idea's of patriarchy, toxic masculinity and rape culture - these hateful statements are not a perversion of idea's by a couple of extremists, they are a direct and natural consequence of the most basic feminist theory and I would argue the only possible final conclusion that could be drawn from it.

These women literally wrote the book on feminism. They developed its core theory, and took its to its natural conclusion. And their work is what modern "nutshells" like Anita Sarkeesian, Rebecca Watson and Suey Parks base their vitriol upon.

I am certain most people who call themselves feminists are not intent on murdering men, on declaring them collectively to be inevitable rapists or to declare man-hating as something honourable. But claiming that feminism in a nutshell is equality for all people regardless of gender is like claiming that the NSDAP is about being proud of being a German: I'm sure many Germans who at the time joined the NSDAP were just trying to be proud of their country and didn't intend any harm to anyone, but that doesn't absolve them of the responsibility that they should have been aware just what the people they were supporting stood for, and what the natural consequence would be.

[–]r3becca -2 points-1 points0 points 11 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

Cherry picking some American feminist dinosaurs isn't particularly productive or honest. Heck, at least one of them is a TERF.

"and they face almost zero opposition within their ranks."

You did actually read the links you sent me right?

"Other critics, especially women who identify as feminists but sharply differ with Dworkin's style or positions, have offered nuanced views, suggesting that Dworkin called attention to real and important problems, but that her legacy as a whole had been destructive to the women's movement.[125] Her work and activism on pornography – especially in the form of the Antipornography Civil Rights Ordinance – drew heavy criticism from groups such as the Feminist Anti-Censorship Task Force (FACT) and even some fellow anti-pornography feminists, who criticized the Dworkin-McKinnon legal approach as undermining civil rights."

[–]lafielle 0 points1 point2 points 11 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

Interesting how you are going "those aren't -real- feminists" instead of saying "those people are awful and I denounce them and their ideology".

Also interesting the criticism you cite, because yes I read it:

"Dworking called attention to real and important problems"

Exactly what real and important problems? All men being inevitable rapists and exploiters? Her "feminist critics" don't seem to have a problem with her hatred of men -at all-, but rather they have a problem with her saying women shouldn't be allowed to work in the pornography industry!

When I say almost zero opposition, I don't mean that feminists never disagree on how to accomplish their goals, and it is just silly for you to presume that I did. What I am referring to is their core hatred against men, and in this area there is almost no opposition whatsoever. Don't call me as cherry picking and then try to get out of Dworkins hatred on a technicality. You know very well that when I call attention to proposals for the extermination of the entire male population, I am not asking you whether or not feminists agree on how to deal with pornography.

Now the FactualFeminist actually does it right, denouncing the core idea's of rape culture and patriarchy that lead to the "final solutions" proposed by Solanas and Gearhart and supported by figures like Morgan, Daly and Atkinson. Ironically the FactualFeminist has been declared by feminists to not be a feminist: they hang up notes saying that she doesn't speak for feminism. See how easy that is? See how readily feminists denounce her? Why haven't feminists done this when these "feminist dinosaurs" and their more recent ilk claim to speak out on behalf of feminism?

Beyond the Factual Feminist, can you name me some feminists who said something along the lines of "The patriarchy does not exist, and it is time we as feminists stop spreading this lie" or some feminists who said "There exists no rape culture in any western society and we should stop pretending as if there is"?

[–]r3becca 0 points1 point2 points 11 years ago* (1 child) | Copy Link

If you're going to make up quotes about what I have said, at least make them entertaining. Feminism is a big umbrella term and it's not my job to police it's border.

I have no obligation to denounce anyone.

To be honest, i arrived in this subreddit after mashing reddit's RANDOM button a bunch. Near the top of the page I saw "Feminism in a nutshell" and had to comment on the absurdity of it. It's not like this post upvoted itself, it is representative of the /r/mensrights community to an extent.

This place seems to have and encourage a culture of outrage at outdated, fringe and largely irrelevant figureheads. This fixation looks a lot like a persecution complex which is by no means unique to /r/mensrights, reddit or the internet at large.

If your goal is progress then perhaps it would be more productive to critique current feminist study syllabus and government policy implementations rather than random unsourced pictures on the internet.

[–]lafielle 0 points1 point2 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Feminism is not a big umbrella term -at all-!. Feminism has a very specific and clear meaning, a core ideology which is written down for all to read and it has central idea's such as patriarchy, toxic masculinity and rape-culture that lie at the heart of the movement.

I already showed you old leaders, so lets name some new ones. Anita Sarkeesian relies heavily on the idea's of patriarchy, toxic masculinity and rape culture in her works and explicitly mentions those by name. She relies on the theory that those founding mothers started. This isn't a fringe luny, she was invited to the Colbert Report to speak on behalf of feminism, and was named one of the top 100 most influential people. She received countless prizes by feminist groups and received financial support from thousands of feminists through kickstarter.

And she tells the same lies about how patriarchy oppresses women, how masculinity in gaming is toxic and how there exists a rape culture in which men keep women in a constant state of fear. Her idea's are DIRECTLY drawn from the works of Dworkin, Solanas and Gearhart.

To name some other currently prominent feminists, Rebecca Watson, Zoey Quinn and Suey Parks, all of them follow the same core ideology and they mention those theories by name.

You declare the founding mothers of feminism to be "fringe", "outdated" and "largely irrelevant", but that simply isn't supported by the facts. As I mentioned, Daly and her works have been cited more than 2000 times. She is one of the rockstars of feminist theory. And she reaffirmed their support for the mass extermination of men. They are the editors of feminist magazines. They are the leaders of feminist organizations. They are the professors of feminist theory, doctors in gender studies. They LITERALLY wrote the book on feminism. You cannot simply dismiss them as being fringe because you happen to dislike what they have to say!

You say its not your job to police the borders of feminism, and I would agree. But that doesn't mean feminisms borders aren't being policed! The core ideology of feminism is ENFORCED by feminists because they CAN and DO denounce those who would call themselves feminists but who step away from that core ideology.

Let's look at some examples: in my previous post I linked some images of the protests feminists make against Christina Hoff Summers, aka the FactualFeminist, because she has the audacity to challenge feminist dogma.

As another example, I would refer to is Warren Farrell, and the protests made against him. Video's in the article, and I especially point out the part halfway through. Warren Farrell was a feminist and served on the New York City Board of the National Organization for Women. As soon as he started talking about "equality for men as well", he was puked out by feminists.

As a third example, I would mention Erin Pizzey, who started the first domestic violence shelter for women. She soon realised that surprisingly, men too could be victims of domestic violence, and moved to build a shelter for men. This almost immediately resulted in death threats from feminists eventually forcing her to flee the country for fear her grandchildren might be harmed.

You say that feminism at its core is about equality, but as soon as someone prominent speaks out for boys who fall behind in education, challenges the idea that women earn 70 percent of the pay that men do for the same work or dares to suggest that perhaps men too can be victims of domestic violence and they too need help, feminist border patrol steps in to make sure that everyone knows feminism isn't about anything that could benefit men. After all, core feminist theory teaches that hatred of men is noble and good.

You refer to replies here as outrage culture, but I think that is a very unfair assessment considering the above facts. This subreddit is a place with many men who have been seriously hurt as a result of feminism. One I spoke to was arrested because his wife beat him and he called the police - the Duluth Model of domestic violence, introduced and maintained by feminists forces police to arrest the bigger partner, even if they are clearly the victim. Another went to jail because feminism stopped alimony reforms, alimony he was unable to pay after suffering from PTSD due to his Afghanistan tour. A third lost his job and his house because his stepdaughter falsely accused him of rape AND ADMITTED TO LYING IN COURT ABOUT IT.

When you randomly browse to /r/Israel and then declare that the NSDAP was awesome because they had beautiful flags and uniforms and really the National Socialists stand for a strong Germany and who could oppose such patriotism, you might get some opposition.

The flag that feminism waves "equality for everyone" is indeed beautiful. The uniform of "we simply want to help women" is indeed beautiful. And the ideals expressed by feminism that "feminism is the radical notion that women are people", who could oppose that?

The reason I'm bringing up all these examples is not to cause outrage, but it is that I am hoping you will take the time to actually study feminism, to read up on what feminist theory proposes and to learn what it REALLY stands for. To look beyond the pretty uniforms, the awesome displays of marching skills and the fancy speeches.

Because if you study it, you will soon find that it is "equality for everyone - except men". That it is "we simply want to help women - at the expense of men". And that "feminism is the radical notion that women are people - and men are not."

You cannot declare yourself to be a national socialist, dismiss Adolf Hitler, Hermann Göring and Heinrich Himmler as "fringe", "outdated" and "largely irrelevant" and then say that as a national socialist, you have no obligation to distance yourself from the Holocaust because after all you didn't do any of that and furthermore, its not your job to police the borders of what does and doesn't fall under the large umbrella of National Socialism.

If you still don't believe me, if nothing I said has rung true, if you are sure that you don't just see the flag, but see the person carrying it... then try and name me three things that feminism has ever done for men which didn't directly benefit women. Try and name me one single thing. Just one.

After all, if feminism is about equality isn't it? After giving women the vote, access to education, building shelters for women who were victims of domestic abuse or rape... what exactly has feminism done that benefits men without directly benefiting women? If feminism was about equality... then surely there should be at least one thing?

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[–]OrangeAvocado3 points 11 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Why don't you look at the positions held by feminist organizations, then? In the U.S., the National Organization for Women (NOW) is about as "mainstream feminist" as you can get - and their official platform supports every misandrist, whack-a-doodle, female supremacist, man-hating initiative out there. They're against equal custody, they deny the prevalence of false rape accusations, they talk about DV only as something that men do to women, they campaign against religious freedom, they favor quotas to get women in high-paying jobs but are silent about getting men into fields such as teaching, they want women-only spaces but demand an end to men-only spaces, and the list goes on.

So unless you're going to show that NOW and every major feminist organization does not represent "true feminism," your statement is nothing more than the No True Scotsman fallacy.

Title	Feminism in a nutshell
Author	Blix980
Upvotes	322
Comments	61
Date	May 13, 2015 11:39 PM UTC (11 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/35vzc9/feminism_in_a_nutshell/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/feminism-in-a-nutshell.980351 https://theredarchive.com/post/980351

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