Pro choice for men

LookAtMeNow247 · 2020-10-07T13:27:32+00:00

Here's my argument: the ideology that supports binding men financially to a child for 18 years is the same ideology that forces women to carry a baby for 9 months.

It's conservative Christian values being forced upon every member of society. It's an attempt at forcing a family structure and punishing those who have sex out of wedlock.

Being pro-choice while also in favor of child support is in direct contradiction with progress in this area of the law and political discourse on personal rights.

AdikaHUN0328 · 2020-10-07T12:42:51+00:00

Ask her that what she thinks about a boy leaving a girl after she is pregnant. If she says, that he is an asshole and he should have kept it in his pants (which i assume she would say) tell her, that the girl should have kept her legs close. It's not a big, but still a valid argument. And maybe she can get closer to realise it's their responsibility, and not the guys fault and the girls choice.

Appletree911 · 2020-10-07T12:44:51+00:00

I have posted the following on this sub recently. The following contains some of my personal perspective.

1.Do you believe that it is appropriate to explore the feasibility of granting fathers some legal say to contest abortion in certain circumstances?

Personally, I believe that this question is worth pondering for certain circumstances. For example,

-the pregnancy is an informed and mutually inclusive decision of a married couple and;

-there are no reasonable grounds to believe that there is significant risk of health implications for the mother and child should the pregnancy be carried to its full-term and;

-the reason/intention for abortion is seemingly unreasonable (e. g. sudden change of heart without change in circumstances, a way to spite or take vengeance upon the counterpart etc) and;

-the intention to abort occurs relatively late into the term and;

-the father has adequately demonstrated spontaneity and means to take care of the child, even if it is by himself and;

-the father is willing to assume sole accountability of his child and is not against the mother's parental liabilities to be absolved.

2.Do you believe that it is appropriate for a father's parental liability to be absolved in certain circumstances?

Personally, I believe that it is reasonable to consider absolving a father of his legal parental liability if

-his child is a product of rape/sexual assault/sexual coercion perpetrated by the mother.

-his child is a product of other criminal means perpetrated by the mother. For example, the child was conceived as the mother has intentionally compromised contraception (e. g. tampered with her partner's condom without the partner's consent or knowledge) or that the child was conceived via self-insemination and the mother has obtained the semen of the father through misconception or coercion.

3.Do you believe that it is appropriate for mothers of unintended pregnancy to not only receive child support but other forms of compensation in certain circumstances?

Personally, I believe that it is reasonable to consider mandatory compensation for mothers beyond current compliance standards (aside from child support) in certain circumstances. For example,

-a mother was rendered pregnant and delivered her child and that said child is a product of rape/sexual assault/sexual coercion/misconception perpetrated by the father.

4.Do you believe that it is appropriate to consider financial/paper abortion rights for fathers in certain circumstances?

In recent years, I noticed that there was some traction gathered in countries such as Sweden and the UK for fathers to be entitled to paper/financial abortion rights. The notion is that fathers should also have equal rights to decide if they wish to be parents.

While I am in favour of this in circumstances I mentioned above, I am vehemently against it being a sweeping right for fathers in any and every situation. In family law, the principle is such that the welfare of the child is of paramount consideration, and I believe that a sweeping implementation of such policy is highly detrimental to said principle.

5.Do you believe that it is appropriate to consider full-term or even post-partum (post delivery) abortion rights for mothers in certain circumstances?

Personally, I find it utterly reprehensible. However, for exceptional cases, some may argue that it is seemingly in the best interests of the child. For example,

-The child has a severe development disorder that is priorly undetected and the disorder is very likely to pose certain implications for the child, if not already so.

However, such decisions should be bilateral and made mutually by both parents. The mother should not have overriding priority over the father.

6.Do you believe that it is appropriate to consider fathers' right to coerce abortion in certain circumstances?

Personally, I do not believe that there exist any scenario that renders such consideration reasonable.

Please note that this list is non-exhaustive and constitutes only some of my view points on this subject.

redFenning22 · 2020-10-07T12:58:59+00:00

Men agree to sex, they don't agree to being responsible for raising a child. If a woman can put a kid up for adoption and remove their responsibility, then so should a man.

Gruntyth · 2020-10-07T14:48:05+00:00

Sometimes abortions are too expensive for women to get

More expensive is rising a child. And thats a dumb argument because even if she didnt have money for an abortion she still could give the child to adoption. So if she decides to have a child in her life is because she wants it.

Her body, her choice. She thinks that the women should get to choose everything about the child because it's her body

I don't see how this is an argument against men right to choose.

And the same can be said in this case. My life, my money, my choice, I can choose to have an "abortion" during pregnancy because it is my life and my money, and because I do not choose if the child is born or not then is not my responsibility.

If this does not apply because "DUH you had sex" then neither applies "my body my choice"

The woman's parents maybe pro life and the women need help to raise a baby

irrelevant she still has a choice, if she does not want to take it for moral reasons it is her problem

It's the guys fault for getting her pregnant

Yes sure blame the man for an action in which she has voluntarily participated.

And no actually it would be her own fault because its her BODY and her RESPONSABILITY. Shes the one that decides what she's gonna stick on her body

(edit: Besides being against "male abortion" while you are in favor of abortion is hypocritical and sexist)

duhhhh · 2020-10-07T15:16:06+00:00

A male's consent to sex or implantation is irrelevant for child support according to the US courts. Financial abortion would change that.

After Hermesmann v Seyer set the precedent, courts around the country have decided that male victims of women owe the perpetrators child support for decades, while other precedents and laws generally allow female victims many options to get rid of the product of their rapes.

Hermesmann successfully argued that a woman is entitled to sue the father of her child for child support even if conception occurred as a result of a criminal act committed by the woman.

E.g.

Alabama man - https://law.justia.com/cases/alabama/court-of-appeals-civil/1996/2950025-0.html

Arizona boy - https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2014/09/02/statutory-rape-victim-child-support/14953965/

California boy - https://www.chicagotribune.com/news/ct-xpm-1996-12-22-9612220045-story.html

Others in this paper "Victims with responsibilities" -https://lawpublications.barry.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1017&context=cflj

There are many others out there. I do not believe there has yet been a single case where a boy or man has gotten out of paying child support to an adult woman that statutory raped, raped, sperm jacked, etc.

The good news is that in recent years feminist lobbiests have pushed for laws to prevent rapists from getting child custody. Without custody the child wouldn't be raised by a rapist and the victim wouldn't owe child support. So the day that a male doesn't owe his perpetrator may be coming soon. The less good news is that just over half the states that passed these laws passed them as the feminist lobbiests proposed them - only preventing rapist fathers from getting custody.

Terrell v Torres recently set a precident and invalidated a signed contract to let a woman use embryos created with her ex and have him owe child support. https://www.azcentral.com/story/news/local/arizona/2019/03/18/arizona-court-ruling-use-preserved-embryos-without-ex-husbands-consent-ruby-torres/3205867002/

In several other cases women who forged her ex's signature to implant have been awarded child support from the unwilling father. E.G. https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5687477/Ex-husband-ordered-pay-child-support-former-wife-forged-signature-undergo-IVF.html

Reproductive coersion of men is also an issue that would be drastically reduced with financial abortion.

approximately 10.4% (or an estimated 11.7 million) of men in the United States reported ever having an intimate partner who tried to get pregnant when they did not want to or tried to stop them from using birth control

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reproductive_coercion

What about IVF with sperm taken from a condom without the man's consent?

https://www.mommyish.com/woman-steals-ex-boyfriends-sperm-has-twins-sues-for-child-support-836/

How about when they only engage in oral sex which should have no pregnancy risk?

https://rollingout.com/2014/02/04/woman-uses-sperm-oral-sex-get-pregnant-force-man-pay-child-support/

Lots of people say it is slavery to make a woman pay for an unwanted child. Requests for equality under the law are usually met with declarations of misogyny followed by censorship. Financial abortion would solve all these issues for males and discourage females from doing them.

Hirudin · 2020-10-07T13:37:37+00:00

His body, his choice. Being forced to work for someone else for two decades is every bit as much a imposition of one's bodily autonomy as being forced to continue a pregnancy.

NotherThrowaway284 · 2020-10-07T13:19:40+00:00

[N]o matter what I say I can't convince her of the double standard here. Half her arguments don't make sense and I would love some fact based arguments in the comments

The evidence isn't what's moving her at this point. Figure out what is and redirect your attack there.

theromanshcheezit · 2020-10-07T18:59:30+00:00

Y’all just wear condoms.

0mnica · 2020-10-07T21:14:33+00:00

Talk to her about if she believes men who have sex, consent to have a kid, regardless if that is the intended outcome. Then if she agrees, pivot and say that the same argument is used by people who are pro life, and say that a women having sex is consent to having a child, and should not be allowed an abortion. If she says thats not the same thing, shes a lost cause and a hypocrite.

2020-10-08T07:32:40+00:00

Women are the overwhelming majority who commit reproductive coercion. It's been like this since the introduction of the female contraceptive pill.

Reproductive coercion is a form of domestic violence but it would be extremely difficult to prove that the women sabotaged her own birth control.

Men need protection from women's coercion of men's reproduction, especially when men don't provide consent for parenthood. A man giving up rights and responsibilities to the child will take away an incentive from women

You could also use the feminist/abortionist argument that "consent to sex is not consent to parenthood". If it applies to women it most certainly should apply to men.

Ultimately, Her Body Her Choice Her Responsibility

docb30tn · 2020-10-09T05:28:03+00:00

An unborn fetus is NOT 'her body' and nothing can change that. Support abortion = you support baby murder.
Many men have raised children without a mother just FINE.
My money, my choice. If she wants to kill an unborn baby then I can abandon her for many reasons.

Ferretninja007 · 2020-10-07T13:46:48+00:00

They should have the right to opt out of parenthood

trash62 · 2020-10-07T17:26:26+00:00

Personally, I believe men should be able to "abort" their end of the pregnancy, if he does so in time for her to choose an abortion. If she decides to carry the child to term (and keep the child) and can't pay for it, she should be charged with child neglect, have her children taken away and pay child support to the state, for raising her child. Same as would happen to a man who can't afford his child support.

But legally... The thing that gives women the right to an abortion is the 4th amendment. The child doesn't enter into the ruling.

I would like her to explain why men (And women) without children are expected to subsidize her breeding activities via taxation.

The world is massively overpopulated, the most environmentally damaging thing any of us can do is have children, and yet these people actually believe the government should pay them for giving birth to children.... I bet they claim to be environmentalists, too.

You aren't dealing with rational people, you're dealing with spoiled tyrants who believe they are entitled to special priviliges, how can you argue with a tyrant?

dragons_fire77 · 2020-10-07T19:59:32+00:00

No, women shouldn't be forced to get abortions. That's a pretty gross overstepping of bodily autonomy. However if the man wants an abortion and she doesn't then he shouldn't have any financial or legal responsibility for the child.

dikbum · 2020-10-07T22:54:06+00:00

> Sometimes abortions are too expensive for women to get

With respect, if you want to abort a child you should pay for it then.

> Her body, her choice.

Sperm is part of our body.

>It's the guys fault for getting her pregnant

It takes two to fuck...

Reptilian_Brain_420 · 2020-10-08T00:57:30+00:00

" It's the guys fault for getting her pregnant "

Funny how the girl never has any responsibility for what happens to her own body.

Holy_Bugles · 2020-10-08T01:23:07+00:00

"It's the guy's fault for getting her pregnant."

It's also the woman's fault for allowing it to happen. Don't want a baby, use birth control or some spermicide.

WeNeedACulling2020 · 2020-10-07T15:08:57+00:00

She choosing to keep it. He should get the choice to pay or not.

ninja_deli · 2020-10-07T18:52:26+00:00

This is most women tbh. Most will NEVER admit that it is unfair that men have no say. They have complete power when it comes to children and they know it...and they don't want to give it up either. It's not a matter of equality for them. It's a matter of control and power.

not_a_falangist · 2020-10-07T13:05:44+00:00

It’s not her body, it’s an innocent child.

agiganticpanda · 2020-10-07T19:58:30+00:00

It's an issue of bodily autonomy.

The issue is, we have the state unjustly force a financial burden on men.

Just look at some of these responses that sound exactly like pro-life arguments.

Personally I think parenthood should be an opt in process. If a man is willing to be a father, then once they opt in legally binding, outside of finding out the child isn't his, they should be on the hook for child support. Until then, it should be based on the ideal of bodily autonomy, the woman's responsibility to carry a child to term and it's care afterwards.

Until then, be careful about your sexual agency and unless you can't say "I'm willing to have a kid with this person" don't trust they're on birth control (or know how to take it properly)

FloofyKittyCat · 2020-10-08T01:25:54+00:00

What if the man wants the kid but the woman doesn't? 🤔 reverse that and it'd be very corrupt. What a double standard.

madjedininja · 2020-10-08T01:26:05+00:00

This is such a frustrating thing to discuss because every situation is different. I mean if you have sex there is always the chance of pregnancy. So that should be kept in mind. And abortion does take a toll on the mother.

Also what if the dad wants to keep the baby but the mother doesn't. And vice versa. Especially what if you're married and your wife is pregnant and doesn't want to keep it but you do?

It's one of those things I think you just can't make a blanket statement about.

And it's so complicated.

MRMRising · 2020-10-08T21:17:20+00:00

Abortions are too expensive for some women?

As opposed to raising a child for 18-20 years?

Rockbottom503 · 2020-10-09T22:02:16+00:00

The funny thing is that pro choice women use the exact same arguments, which disgust them when applied to womens choice, that pro lifers use against them when the discussion is turned towards parental choice for men.

queroUmUsername · 2020-10-07T13:31:01+00:00

I'm not pro murder. Sorry

be responsible for your choices

Platinum247365 · 2020-10-07T18:45:12+00:00

Claim: "Men's reproductive rights are not being violated."

Response: "You can't violate rights that never existed to begin with."

NotSoHappyApple · 2020-10-07T21:27:38+00:00

Women are the gate keepers of Consensual Sex

Women have the power here.

Consensual Sex does not happen if women do not want it to. Perhaps women should keep their legs closed. They know the risks of having sex just as well as everyone else. Women would not get pregnant if they did not choose to have sex.

As for Her Body Her Choice....
Does she have 2 heads? 4 arms? 2 hearts? a Penis(If a male child)? It's not her Body, it is some one else's body with their own unique Human DNA.

Greg_W_Allan · 2020-10-07T21:44:20+00:00

It's the guys fault for getting her pregnant

Women are never responsible for anything.

upsidedown-mind · 2020-10-07T21:56:16+00:00

If she can abort your child, you should have every right to not pay! And lets talk about how it’s the baby’s body more then the women’s. You can also use her logic against her, my sperm my my child, my money my choice.

indoorimp · 2020-10-07T23:00:49+00:00

Gotta love when it is men's fault when those same women are cock hungry and dont think straight.

slayer5934 · 2020-10-07T16:41:12+00:00

I'm pro men but also pro life, if you don't want the baby maybe you shouldn't have put your dick in (or on the flip side;) I know, self control is a really hard concept.

kingsavagekiller · 2020-10-07T14:55:09+00:00

Every time a woman gets pregnant everyone is like congrats to her but aint nobody says that to the guy penis that cause her to get pregnant.

TDG0922 · 2020-10-07T18:01:24+00:00

Wrap your meat up if you're going to have sex.

There you go, problem solved.

ApprehensiveMail8 · 2020-10-07T18:24:15+00:00

Pardon my rant, but can we please stop referring to arrangements in which a man wishes to relinquish paternity, custody, or stop paying child support as "paper abortion".

There's a lot wrong with this analogy but I wish to draw attention to one point in particular; "abortion" is done before birth. There's no reason that any of these things should be artificially limited to that time frame.

Relinquishing paternity/ maternity should be a right at any time. If you are 54 years old and your dad decides that he just doesn't want to be your dad anymore for some reason, why not let him quit?

Relinquishing custody should be a right at any time up until the child's 18th birthday.

And child support? Child support shouldn't even exist. If parents wish to give their children money call it what it is: an allowance or inheritance. And the timing and amount of this should be entirely up to the parent choosing to do it.

Custodial parents should expect to incur some bills resulting from having custody of their child, but they should recognize that those bills are 100% due to their current and ongoing choices regarding how to raise their children, and they shouldn't expect non-custodial parents to chip in. You don't want the bill? Then it's time to give up custody. It doesn't have to be forever, just until you feel you can parent on your own budget.

Perhaps if we didn't try turn parenthood into an 18-year/lifelong commitment to doing a bunch of specific-yet-arbitrary stuff that other people have decided must be in the best interest of your children, people wouldn't feel abortion is necessary in the first place.

TheAgentX · 2020-10-08T01:26:07+00:00

Babies are half genetic material of one parent and half the other. The mom carries and "feeds" the baby, but the baby is not her body! And both parents have rights in my view.
Yes, it might not be a fair situation for a women that someone could say to stay pregnant. But by law, either we make abortion illegal unless is a case of rape or incest. At least both parents should consent an abortion, unless the father is unknown or missing (kind hard to prove both). But at least the rights of the father should be taken consideration, if not the baby's. Life is not fair. Pregnancy is a serious thing. People that just have sex without thinking of the responsibilities are taking a risk for fun, and they shouldn't be able to just brush off the baby. Abortion is not birth control. Anyway, Planned Parenthood, as an organization is evil, and has been from the beginning.

kingsavagekiller · 2020-10-07T14:53:22+00:00

If a woman gets pregnant and the guy knows she's not a good fit to be a mother and hes not ready to be a daddy than. He should what he think is best. A woman cant get pregnant without a man sooo. He should have the more say so in what happens to the baby. Plus girls woman knows what turn guys on and how to get them in bed. So she shouldn't have all the say so.

michaelpaoli · 2020-10-07T13:13:53+00:00

She's right - her body, her choice.

Guy gets to choose what (consensually) can be done with his sperm. After that, no longer his choice.

When women start shooting their eggs into guys and guys get pregnant, then it'll be the guy's choice. Until then, it's not.

Title	Pro choice for men
Author	I_am_Root01
Upvotes	157
Comments	116
Date	October 7, 2020 12:04 PM UTC (5 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/j6pkoo/pro_choice_for_men/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/pro-choice-for-men.842744 https://theredarchive.com/post/842744

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