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Scientists and mathematicians test higher on autism spectrum, says Cambridge University. Males in the population on average have slightly more autistic traits than females do. Men dominate STEM fields.

TR6Cool

November 4, 2015

73 upvotes

/r/MensRights

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Post Information

Title	Scientists and mathematicians test higher on autism spectrum, says Cambridge University. Males in the population on average have slightly more autistic traits than females do. Men dominate STEM fields.
Author	TR6Cool
Upvotes	73
Comments	69
Date	November 4, 2015 9:38 AM UTC (10 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/3rh35m/scientists_and_mathematicians_test_higher_on/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/scientists-and-mathematicians-test-higher-on.967968 https://theredarchive.com/post/967968

Comments

[–]FinFihlman 12 points13 points14 points 10 years ago (44 children) | Copy Link

[–]Lethn 13 points14 points15 points 10 years ago* (41 children) | Copy Link

[–]anticapitalist 3 points4 points5 points 10 years ago (36 children) | Copy Link

I don't dispute that Autism exists or not

It only exists as a label/construct for alleged behaviors & feelings.

Allen Frances: The chairman in charge of creating the DSM-IV

"Mental disorders don't really live ‘out there’ waiting to be explained. They are constructs we have made up - and often not very compelling ones."

-- Allen Frances in “DSM in Philosophyland: Curiouser and Curiouser” in AAP&P Bulletin vol 17, No 2 of 2010

Thomas Insel: Former director of the NIMH

“Diagnoses are based on a consensus about clusters of clinical symptoms, not any objective laboratory measure.”

-- Thomas Insel @ psychologytoday.com

In other words:

Being accused of autism (even by a psychiatrist) is not evidence of any real/physical illness.
Some of the people accused of autism may actually be born with some type of problem, but being accused itself is not evidence of that.

[–]Lethn 1 point2 points3 points 10 years ago (35 children) | Copy Link

[–]theQuandary 3 points4 points5 points 10 years ago (34 children) | Copy Link

Let's not get aboard the conspiracy train quite yet. We know ALS, lupus, and a host of other diseases exist without knowing their actual cause (in fact, we suspect some of them can be caused by several different things). Despite not knowing, we still group and treat them together until we can finally discover the mechanisms at play.

The same thing is true with mental illnesses. We may not know the cause yet, but grouping similar symptom sets together and attempting to treat them is the only option until researchers can find the physical cause. This can also be beneficial in discovering the cause or causes because if a single treatment works on all cases, we can be more certain of their similarity (and the treatment helps reduce the search area) while treatments that only help parts of the group can help identify differences in the disorder.

Nobody likes the current system, but I believe it is better than no system.

[–]anticapitalist -1 points0 points1 point 10 years ago (33 children) | Copy Link

without knowing their actual cause

That isn't the issue. The issue is whether something is a real/physical illness or purely a made up construct.

If something has physically measurable damage or physical loss of function, that's a real illness. In contrast "mental illness" is purely a construct of the mind.

"psychiatric diagnosis still relies exclusively on fallible subjective judgments rather than objective biological tests"

-- Allen Frances, 2013

And psychiatry's claim that behaviors/feelings are "illnesses" is moral.

(ie, science will never be able to prove such.)

In other words, declaring that a behavior (or feeling) is an "illness" is making a moral judgement that it's bad.

eg, no one would try to claim "hard work" or "heterosexual porn" was a mental illness because they view them morally as good.

That's out of the realm of science.

Example: the "mental illness" called "transvestic fetishism."
This is the idea that it's fine to masturbate to straight porn (or all sorts of other types,) but that masturbating to transsexual porn is a mental illness.

Such a moral opinion can not be proven by science.

[–]shzftw 2 points3 points4 points 10 years ago (30 children) | Copy Link

[–]anticapitalist 0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago* (29 children) | Copy Link

Just because we can't measure it yet doesn't mean in can't be measured.

Even if we could (someday) measure the mind itself that'd only show one person was different than another. (Not physical damage or physical loss of function.)

ie, that's not evidence of any "mental illness" because:

Different != disease.
Cause & effect. Measuring that someone is different somehow doesn't prove (eg) they were born that way instead of chose it or because that way do to real life.

Next, actual science has physical units of measurement & thus accuracy/repeatability. Saying that it's plausible to measure the brain & make assumptions about how that effects the mind is not the same.

No one is passing a moral judgment on a diagnosis.

In reality the DSM is not a list of behaviors/feelings which exist, but those considered bad by the state/APA.

And that is passing moral judgement.

[–]shzftw 0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago (28 children) | Copy Link

[–]anticapitalist 0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago (26 children) | Copy Link

Psychiatry has [physical diagnosis with physical units of measurement.] It's called symptoms.

Incorrect. You must have missed these quotes from earlier:

Allen Frances: The chairman in charge of creating the DSM-IV

"psychiatric diagnosis still relies exclusively on fallible subjective judgments rather than objective biological tests"

-- Allen Frances, 2013

Thomas Insel: Former director of the NIMH

“Diagnoses are based on a consensus about clusters of clinical symptoms, not any objective laboratory measure.”

-- Thomas Insel @ psychologytoday.com

you have a bias against psychiatry and psychology in general.

The topic is not psychology (the study of the mind) but psychiatry (assuming behaviors/feelings which the APA dislikes are "mental illnesses.")
Every side has a bias, including you.

And bias doesn't make anyone wrong. eg, I'm biased against rapists & kidnappers, it doesn't mean I'm wrong.

[–]shzftw1 point 10 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]anticapitalist0 points 10 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]shzftw1 point 10 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]anticapitalist0 points 10 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]shzftw1 point 10 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]anticapitalist0 points 10 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

or one that makes people uncomfortable because he is completely unaware of personal space

That's a subjective opinion, not evidence of any illness.

And there's nothing objective about it. In actual sciences what's objective has physical units of measurement & thus accuracy/repeatability.

because he is paranoid

Who's "paranoid" is a subjective opinion.

about his behavior in the context of society.

This sounds like an Orwellian way to say someone is different than the norm. And again that's irrelevant: different is not a disease.

Coughing up blood is a sign of lung cancer.

It's listed commonly as a "symptom" of lung cancer and if you want to use different language I couldn't care less.

"Symptoms of lung cancer... Coughing up blood."

-- http://www.lungcancer.org/find_information/publications/163-lung_cancer_101/266-symptoms

[–]shzftw1 point 10 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]anticapitalist0 points 10 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]shzftw1 point 10 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

In actual sciences what's objective has physical units of measurement & thus accuracy/repeatability.

You're not the one that makes the definition of what is an actual science or not. Psychiatry is a science. Cry all you want. It's still as science.

Who's "paranoid" is a subjective opinion.

Feelings are subjective by definition you idiot. Paranoia is a state of mind. At the moment, it can not be measured objectively. It can be observed in the patients behavior and in their narratives.

different is not a disease.

According to your definition. However your definition is wrong because you are a nutcase.

It's listed commonly as a "symptom" of lung cancer and if you want to use different language I couldn't care less.

If you purposely chose to use the wrong terminology it's up to you. The fact that it's commonly listed doesn't make it any less wrong.

It's not a debate. You make up your own definitions of words and well defined concepts.

You being butt hurt about your diagnosis is clearly hurting your judgement.

[–]anticapitalist0 points 10 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]shzftw2 points 10 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]anticapitalist-1 point 10 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]shzftw2 points 10 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]anticapitalist-1 point 10 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]shzftw2 points 10 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]anticapitalist-1 point 10 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]shzftw2 points 10 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]anticapitalist-1 point 10 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]shzftw2 points 10 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]anticapitalist-1 point 10 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]shzftw1 point 10 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]anticapitalist0 points 10 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]shzftw1 point 10 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]anticapitalist0 points 10 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]shzftw0 points 10 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]shzftw1 point 10 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]theQuandary 1 point2 points3 points 10 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

Moral relativism is a slippery slope. This entire subreddit is based on the relative morality of men's rights. Should we release the criminals from prison on the grounds that their mental state isn't scientifically bad, just different?

If we want to take this idea a step farther, it is easily provable that ALL human governments are founded on persecution of these and other minorities (in fact, should systematic and continual persecution cease to happen, then the government would de-facto cease to exist).

Is there an objective standard of "correct"?

There must either be an objective morality (the universe is moral) or a collective morality (the majority determines what the limits of morality are). Individual morality only exists if no collective exists (no groups, unions, governments, etc).

If there is an objective morality, then whatever it says is correct is correct by definition, If we accept that there is a collective morality, then the idea of mental illness follows quite logically.

If your argument is against part of the collective morality, then make that argument (but realize it has little to do with the process of mental illness classification and instead address the definitions used by that process). If your argument is against the idea of collective morality, then I would love to hear your basis (it would make for an enjoyable discussion).

[–]anticapitalist 1 point2 points3 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

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