We Need Men | MensRights

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[–]DJ-Roukan 159 points160 points161 points 7 years ago* (27 children) | Copy Link

Actually, statistically, there are not that many father's that abandon their children. The numbers are skewed in some raacial or social demographics, but overall, the numbers are not at all what they claim.

Non-custodial mothers are more lkely to not pay support than fathers. Even father's that are not allowed to see their children pay in 60% ( I believe that is the last stat I've seen on it) of cases. those that are, overwhelmingly pay their support.

The majority are exiled through the courts, and then as you say, driven from the child's life by the mother's influence.

If dads were running the way feminist and the media portray, there would be no father's rights movement trying to get back in, it would not be a strong aspect of the MRM. Six to 8 days a month is not fatherhood, it is babysitting to give the mother a break.

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[–]smfuel87 0 points1 point2 points 7 years ago* (4 children) | Copy Link

Because wtf are you going to do about it bitch? Lol.

Thats the way your government sees it. WTF are you gonna do punk? We have the power and we pay the women to stab you in the back. Government is just the top dog of organized crime groups. They're not some ethical group of people looking after the welfare of you, the whammanz and the childrenz. They're just manipulating the population to turn the greatest tax profit possible, and this is the way they chose to do it. Thats what child support is. If they really wanted to give the child a healthy upbringing, they'd give the fathers more custody and eliminate support unless Dad didn't want to be a parent. But they just transfer half of your wealth the her through what is a father's tax and now all that money is now in the control of the people who will advocate for more communism, more government and more fuckery while you're broke, homeless, behind bars or dead and irrelevant.

Broken homes and clown world women are more profitable to a socialist state than stable families and free people.

Welcome to the "Land of the Free" lol. Welcome to Communism. Thats what this is. Communism.

[–]mikebong64 2 points3 points4 points 7 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]zippo23456 0 points1 point2 points 7 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]smfuel87 0 points1 point2 points 7 years ago* (0 children) | Copy Link

Well, I'm going to disagree with you disagreeing. Obviously too much of one thing is never good and both Capitalism and Communism have their pros and cons, but ultimately the worst of Capitalism is much more palatable to me than the worst of Communism. Sure, corporate government lobbying and ultra powerful corporations blurring the lines between government and private enterprise and the individual are never good, and sure capitalism isn't immune from contributing to many atrocities, but the cons of capitalism, historically speaking are significantly less stomach churning to the record of Communism. At least Capitalism isn't machine gunning millions of it's own into mass graves or subverting populations in the likes that Communism has. Capitalism is the default operating mode of human nature. Communism is the opposite of natural human function in every way. Communism relies on heaps and swaths of misdirection, obfuscation and propaganda and compliance at the point of a rifle barrel. I'm not saying that capitalism doesn't engage in some of the same, but the gun barrel is hardly ever pointed at capitalism's own citizens. We also have regulations in place to mitigate capitalism from running out of control such as the outlawing of monopolies and various regulations throughout industry and enterprise. Communism hardly gets a chance at self-correction before the authoritarians in charge careen off the rails into mass murder of it's own, famine and genocide.

Much of the events in motion now can trace their origins back to the Bolshevik Revolution and the first Cold War. Communist Proponents first failed to take down the west and it's values through overt force. They failed and now they're attempting to take down the west with covert force by infiltrating western institutions and pushing communist ideology and doctrine to the fore front. Thats what all of this is. Deliberate chipping away at western traditional values to achieve a socialist/communist state where there are no self reliant nuclear families, implementation of an Orwellian "All animals are created equal, but some are more equal than others" caste system where everyone is either dependent on or answerable to the state. The individual has no power and they either ask the government for their pittance or beg it for mercy after relentless beatings into submission. Everyone is an individual, there are few if any strong social bonds and the state is the supreme authority. This is the goal.

[–]jameswalker43 0 points1 point2 points 7 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]smfuel87 4 points5 points6 points 7 years ago* (1 child) | Copy Link

The "Deadbeat Dad" phenomena was mostly a fabricated social engineering campaign to usher in Social Marxism and Socialism. Whats been happening is the government sells the mothers on feminism, pays them to leave the fathers of their children, give them almost legal invincibility and total reign to badmouth and alienate dad, mislead others as to what is really happening and boom! Dad is now a "deadbeat" and a slave to the state. The collective now gives the government free reign to steal his kids, financially and legally destroy him and ruin him and turn him into a state servant. Most men won't believe this reality until they've been through the system and are powerless to fight it after they've been destroyed. After they've been taken, they can scream and jump and wave their hands and try to warn others, but no one will give a shit. The end goal is to get outsiders of the proceedings to believe he's a fucking piece of shit who left his kids. Fuck him.

[–]DJ-Roukan 1 point2 points3 points 7 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]revengeofthedirty47 5 points6 points7 points 7 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

[–]DJ-Roukan 7 points8 points9 points 7 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

Here is one quick reference showing that 17% of father's gain custody, which is slightly higher than my contention. keep iin mind also that it is changing fast. The father's rights movement has has great secess in shifting the paradigm, but it is only now starting to take hold

https://www.fatherhood.gov/content/dad-stats#Census

here is another demonstrating 16%, but also speaking of coming change,

that is all a result of a great deal of hard work, by a great many people, to change both law and perspective.

https://ifstudies.org/blog/five-facts-about-todays-single-fathers

In an email, Christopher Brown, president of the National Fatherhood Initiative (NFI), told me that the rise in single-father families can be attributed to two cultural factors: 1) “Men are seen as more capable parents, in general, and accepted as single fathers, specifically,” and 2) “A greater willingness of the courts to award custody to single fathers—essentially awarding custody to the best parent, regardless of gender.”

Here is one citing Pew Research showing 14% dads, but also not the tremendous increase that is from 1960. We might also note that still, only 31% of single fathers receive child support from the mother as opposed to almost 60% of fathers.

https://www.pewsocialtrends.org/2013/07/02/the-rise-of-single-fathers/

https://dadsdivorce.com/articles/3-concerning-facts-deadbeat-dad-myth/

Here one describing the canard of the "dead-beat" dad...and just how complicated it is to try to sort through all the information at hand.

https://www.huffpost.com/entry/the-myth-of-the-deadbeat_n_4745118

https://dadsdivorce.com/articles/5-ways-the-child-support-system-fails-families/

Here is info of custodial and non-custodial fathers paying support.

https://mensrights.com/top-10-fathers-rights-facts/

the number of father's paying support is as I listed, 80% (not counting "Like contribution".

Numbers of fathers with no visitation still paying have changed. no visitation numbers are 44%, currently. that is due to two factors. More fathers gaining visitation, and from an above article, where fathers who cannot afford the payments, adding "like payments".

You can link through them and find as much information as you need.

This one will give you an idea of what it was like just a few years ago (2008), and how far we have come.

https://www.dallasobserver.com/news/family-court-judge-sheds-light-on-unfair-child-support-practices-in-texas-6420102

And finally, the dogmatic nonsense we are up against. This is from 2012, defaming the father's rights movement and actually suggesting throwing small bones at men so as to deter them from seeking help from, or joining the father's rights movement...which is why it is taking so much time for father's to have the right to their own children, felonious reporst such as this one.

https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/911d/27c7acdaff1a572823416e96f81b28d371f1.pdf

The intent comes out at the conclusion. Note how they word it so as to try to sway fathers from fighitng for equality, so as to maintain their control over what dads do or do not get. Nothing at all about unfair support, debtors prison, unfair custody, lacking visitation etc. It is a massive pile of horseshit that says nothing except that fathers need to learn ways to deal with the injustice...especially knowing the negative impact the denial of fatherhood has caused across all measurable data and demograpthics

This is what we are up against.

Second, because of their impact on interparental conflict, fathers’ rights groups may lessen children’s wellbeing

We should be working to respond in appropriate ways to separated fathers, not only because of the emotional and practical needs they have, and not only to encourage their ongoing and positive involvements with children, but also because doing so will lessen the recruitment of separated fathers into the fathers’ rights movement. Providing constructive services for separated fathers is important in part because it diverts them from participation in fathers’ rights networks. This critique should inform the issue of what kind of service response is made to separated fathers: one which fixes them in anger or blame, or one which helps them to heal, to have positive and ongoing involvements with children, and to maintain cooperative relationships with their former partner

[–]NohoTwoPointOh 1 point2 points3 points 7 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

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[–]DJ-Roukan 0 points1 point2 points 7 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]randonumero 4 points5 points6 points 7 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

Six to 8 days a month is not fatherhood,

It depends. There's a lot you can do with your kid in that 6-8 days a month especially when those days are on weekends when you're not working. Personally I favor default 50/50 and reevaluating the way child support is calculated, but having less days is no excuse for being a shitty parent.

I think the fatherhood rights movement has a lot to do with the fact that laws haven't kept up with the times. The original child support laws were written when most women didn't work and couldn't find work so a guy deciding to not pay meant the kid would be on public assistance. Today, a lot of guys are likely to make less than the woman they had kids with. We also have escalating rent costs so child support for a lot of people (men and women) means having to support two households on one income. That crushes most people and has actually caused suicides.

[–]DJ-Roukan 1 point2 points3 points 7 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

It depends. There's a lot you can do with your kid in that 6-8 days a month especially when those days are on weekends when you're not working. Personally I favor default 50/50 and reevaluating the way child support is calculated, but having less days is no excuse for being a shitty parent.

Actually no, and there is a mountain of data demonstrating so. It's not about "doing stuff" as a visitor...and who said they are "shitty parents?". Being a visitor to your kids is not being a dad dealing with day to day life, teaching, tucking in at night, disciplining, being fully involved with your kids...and it has been proven as virtually every negative we can calculate today emanates from that exact situation, including almost all school shooters. That is the kicker in all this. We are pushing the worst possible situation, all predicated on first, dogmatic assumption and adherence to norms that were never fully tested or evaluated, because back in the 50s, divorce was rare. Today it hist virtually half of all marriages.

Second is lack of awareness, and factual evidence, coupled with false arguments from feminist and left leaning scholars supporting the system only because it maintains control for the female. They are out there purposely trying to subdue the truth and mislead the public, just as they do with the MRM (MRM are misogynist, single dads are dead-beats...same tactic, different guy)

I think the fatherhood rights movement has a lot to do with the fact that laws haven't kept up with the times.

Again, untrue. Is that what you meant to say, or that the father's rights movement has helps to change the laws...because they are the only one's out there doing so. Virtually every law, from move-away laws, to child support changes, paternity testing, visitation, joint custody support has come directly from the involvement of those in the Father's rights movement. If not for that movement, we'd be a lot worse off than we are.

[–]randonumero -1 points0 points1 point 7 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

Actually no, and there is a mountain of data demonstrating so.

At the risk of sounding combative I'd like to see that mountain of evidence. Funny thing about human behavioral studies is that you often find conflicting results because people rarely fit a mold. Anecdotally I can tell you that some parents who don't have majority time share make the most of the time they have and go on to have very good relationships with their kids. I've also met non majority timeshare parents who spend what little time they have complaining about the other parent and those who unfortunately are so tired from working 2+ jobs that it's hard to really do much when they have their kids. As parents our relationships with our kids are what we make of them, even when things aren't ideal. So yes it would be nice to get to tuck your kid in at night, for every mother who wants to to be there for her daughters first period...but the reality is that parents don't always stay together and yes you'll find studies that show shuttling a kid from one home to another every other night doesn't work out well for some kids.

Again, untrue.

No that's exactly what I meant to say. The only reason there has to be a fatherhood rights movement is that laws haven't kept up with changing times. Do you really think politicians, of their own volition, re-examine existing laws? The vast majority of laws regarding visitation, child support guidelines, locking people up for not paying...are based on antiquated ways of thinking and in some cases flawed assumptions. It's great that the fatherhood rights movement is there to push politicians towards reform, but they have to push for reforms because there's no other mechanism to make sure laws keep up with the times.

[–]DJ-Roukan 0 points1 point2 points 7 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

No that's exactly what I meant to say. The only reason there has to be a fatherhood rights movement is that laws haven't kept up with changing times.

No, I thought you were saying that the father's rights movement caused the laws to lag. I agree that without it nothing would have changed.

On the 8 days a month, I'd first ask if that was acceptable to you and do you feel that you would be in your child's life enough, seeing them once every five to 7 days? how do you discipline, how to you help with homework, day to day issues. how do you give a boy a parent worth modeling themselve on when they see the mailman more than you? How do you counter the environment set by an ex wife? I spent every free minute with mine, and it still was not enough, even battling pop culture and the pressures of day to day adolecence where the weak path is not only the easiest, but pushed upon kids. weekends out on the boat, ski trips etc, were fine, but the day to day life of a child is where a dad is needed.

On the mountain of data? Look at crime stats and what the absent father has created when kids are raised in the single parent female head of household. the vast majority of violent criminals in the system today, drug abusers, sexual abusers, those failing a myriad of issues from education to interpersonal relationships, unwanted pregnancy, suicides, even school shooters are almost unanimously the product of that environment....and still no one is talking about it.

It is not the presence of the mother, it is the absence of the father. many books on it. Old one, "Uncle Dad". David Blankenhorn, "fatherless America" outlined and predicted the very outcome we are experiencing.

Warren Farrell is constantly speaking of it. Heck, even Shepard Bliss, the man that originated the term "Toxic Masculiniy" stated emphatically that fatherhood was the cure.

We've seen it even in the Kruger park experiment, when the big bulls were seen as obsolete and either killed or removed. Within a week villages were being harassed, dead animals were being found, even the herd itself was being attacked by the young elephants. They returned the big bulls, the adolescents fell right back in line.

Rosalynd Miles wrote what i consider the best book on the subject, almost 40 years ago, "Love, Sex, Death, and the Making of the Male. Her finale line in the book was, "Bring the father of every boy into the close circle of care in order to break the oedipal knot and grant the child a parent worth modeling themselves after.

We know it does not work. We've known for 40 years, and we still have people arguing that a father can make a difference when seeing his kids every 7 days, or every 14 days. We are living lord of the flies, where boys, once they emancipate themselves from the feminine, and begin seeking out their own identity, they are learning from other lost boys and video games.

It simply does not work and never has. There is no argument, no data to the contrary. There is no debate on this.

[–]randonumero 0 points1 point2 points 7 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

I'd first ask if that was acceptable to you and do you feel that you would be in your child's life enough, seeing them once every five to 7 days

It's absolutely not. My point was not to condone the current system but to say that as parents we have to do the best with what we can no matter how unfair the system is towards us.

Look at crime stats and what the absent father has created

An absent father is only one of the contributing factors. I was born in the early 80s and in middle and high school there was a lot of talk about the impact that absent fathers and mothers was having on kids. I haven't really heard much about it lately, but it could just be that I don't really have many friends.

It is not the presence of the mother, it is the absence of the father. many books on it

I'm not sure how I could prove it but IMO, this depends heavily on the kid and the environment. I'd say I have a pretty positive relationship with my dad now, but as a kid my parents spent most of my life before 13 separated and I rarely saw my dad. My mom didn't try to fill the void with father figures, she kept my brother and I engaged in activities and did the best she could to instill values in us. I'll also say I was lucky that my dad is a frugal working professional so we had access to extra curricular activities that some other kids wouldn't even with two parents.

I'll close by thanking you for sharing your views. With any luck things will continue to change for the positive because with our divorce and illegitimacy rates, these terrible laws will continue to negatively impact more and more people including some of the lawyer, judges...who have profited from the current system.

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As a transgender person, I think that my environment has shaped me significantly.

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Lol I don't think that's what it's implying. Do you think gays aren't men? Bahaha

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It’s possible this post was just too close to home and I’m reading it the wrong way. I find that not likely given the vast amount of anti-trans comics out there that share similar formatting.

Regardless, I could only think about how my dad felt when I first discussed with him the aspect that he really had a daughter. One of the first things he said to me is that he felt he had failed as a father to teach me the necessary things it meant to be a man. I told him it was actually the contrary, “you taught me to have the confidence and courage to be me regardless of what society may say.” I just can’t help but feel sad to think there is another father out there perusing these boards in a similar position as mine and think that it’s because of him that his child is struggling. That really breaks me up :(

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Title	We Need Men
Author	TheAndredal
Upvotes	1738
Comments	97
Date	June 8, 2019 8:07 AM UTC (7 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/by5qcm/we_need_men/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/we-need-men.876053 https://theredarchive.com/post/876053

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