Deception as rape - a better example

super-commenting · 2016-06-30T18:36:05+00:00

What if you meet a post-op transexual and have sex with her. She either; a) Doesn't mention it. b) Explicitly lies and tells you she was born a woman.

This is probably the leading cause of trans murders in the United States right there.

shoup88 · 2016-06-30T17:57:31+00:00

Honestly, none of these posts are accurately describing the rape-by-deceptions laws. As they exist in the USA, they are very straightforward. It's not about misrepresenting your job or religion or social status or gender. It's about impersonating a person's romantic partner for the purposes of having sex with them.

The best example of this is Julio Morales. He snuck into a woman's bedroom and starting having sex with her. She consented, thinking it was her boyfriend until the room was lit up. As far as I can see, this law exists in California and Tennessee, with proposed legislation in Massachusetts.

The first post made reference to the Gayle Newland case, although OP didn't appear to have understood it. This is a little different, because the person being impersonated never actually existed. Newland pretended to me a man over two years to have sex with her female friend. Not that it makes a huge difference, but she was found guilty of sexual assault, not rape.

England used to have a law against "procuring intercourse under false pretenses", but that's been abolished.

I'll admit, I am unfamiliar with the laws in Israel. I can't find any further info about the neurosurgeon thing beyond "Eran Ben-Avraham, who told a woman he was a neurosurgeon after which she had sex with him, and was convicted of three counts of fraud". As far as I can see, he was not convicted for anything relating to rape or sexual assault.

So basically, all of this worry is nothing more than paranoid conjecture.

Atlas_B_Shruggin · 2016-06-30T18:34:19+00:00

rape by deception would be tricking someone into sex by deceiving them that it is not sex at all that is being consented to, but something else. i cant remember the case name, but in Crim law i distinctly remember a silly case where a Dr told a woman who could administer a medicine to her traditionally for an exorbitant price, but for a much lower price he could ingest the medicine himself and administer it to her via several sexual encounters. in this case the moron in question was not consenting to sex per se, but to the administration of a medical treatment cases start on page 52 of the PDF

very rarely there has been cases like a brother impersonating another brother to have sex with a woman

one of the key factors in any fraud or deception case is that there has to be some REASONABLE right to "rely" on the word of the person committing the fraud or deception.

if i put up a shingle as an attorney and furnish my office with phony credentials, any victim of my fraudulent legal services can be said to have been legitimately deceived, as we have an reasonable expectation that offices and credentials can be relied upon. what reasonable right to rely on the word of some stranger exists?

if a man tells a woman in conversation that hes a doctor to get her into bed, what "right to rely" on that word did she have? same for some strange transsexual. the transsexual has no legal duty to disclose his status and the seduced man has no reasonable right to rely on their representations it is female

SmurfESmurferson · 2016-06-30T17:45:21+00:00

Consenting to sex with one person does not mean consenting to sex with a different person (e.g., identical twin lies about being his brother to have sex with brother's girlfriend). That's rape.

Consenting to sex with one person when that person lies about their job is still you consenting to sex, but also you being gullible. Not rape.

The only gray area is when people intentionally and maliciously lie about something fundamental that would cause their partner to not only never consent, but to never consider them as a sexual partner. Like gender - that case of the woman who lied about being a man to bed straight women. I personally draw the line at that and consider it rape.

EDIT: Regarding these:

if lying about your job equals rape, where does it end? What about exaggerating the prestige of your job? Lying about being married? What about just sending out false signals of high status, like renting a fancy car?

Morally questionable, but none of them are rape.

GaiusScaevolus · 2016-06-30T18:19:37+00:00

Rape involves two components;

Sexual Intercourse
Denial of Agency

Lying to a person doesn't constitute a denial of agency. We have a strong belief of caveat emptor in our economic interactions in the U.S. I think we should apply that standard equally when it comes to sex/relationships.

Lms1234 · 2016-06-30T18:55:42+00:00

I don't think any of these things should legally be considered rape. I agree with you that lying or deceiving someone in order to have sex with them is morally wrong (even in the case of a post op transsexual who doesn't outright lie but neglects to mention it) but that doesn't mean it is rape or even that it should be punishable by law. Calling it rape is not only a stretch, it also completely waters-down the meaning of rape. I think it's similar to how the definition of sexual harrassment has become so broad - for example, when I was in college some girl filed a complaint against a professor for making sexual jokes during class. Shit like that makes it harder to appreciate and discuss the harm caused by more severe forms of sexual harrassment.

[deleted] · 2016-06-30T17:32:45+00:00

if lying about your job equals rape, where does it end?

Women being able to send men to jail at any time for any reason

lady_baker · 2016-06-30T17:58:22+00:00

If people saved sex for marriage, or at least for a serious LTR, then they wouldn't get into as many predicaments such as the one you described.

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purpleppp · 2016-06-30T20:19:16+00:00

What about lying about HIV status? It's a criminal offense in some states, but is it rape?

Nothing_Gazes_Back · 2016-06-30T22:09:59+00:00

If I sleep with a woman that turns out to be a man I will beat him like he's a man.

Atlas_B_Shruggin · 2016-06-30T18:20:12+00:00

Stop fucking lying about what I wrote.

Which makes a ridiculous attempt to equate anal rape with lying about being a neurosurgeon

Quote me or retract this bullshit.

Title	Deception as rape - a better example
Author	DietCokeImOnMyKnees
Upvotes	14
Comments	89
Date	June 30, 2016 4:49 PM UTC (10 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/PurplePillDebate
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/PurplePillDebate/comments/4qmoth/deception_as_rape_a_better_example/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/PurplePillDebate/deception-as-rape-a-better-example.274216 https://theredarchive.com/post/274216

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