Do RPers understand feminism?

ProtoPill · 2015-06-12T15:39:31+00:00

Do feminists understand feminism?

TheGreasyPole · 2015-06-12T15:48:55+00:00

"Feminists want to raise women above men!"

I believe that feminism would never explicitly state this as a goal. I also believe the vast bulk of feminists would not count this as their goal. I also believe this is exactly what feminism is doing because it is blind to it's real world effects. It "counts the misses, but doesn't count the hits".

Where the line is in your favour, you don't see it. When it isn't, you push it back. This has led to the broad super-set of lines being in womens favour.

"Feminism is female sexual strategy!"

Um, thats kinda your fault... Because it's the feminists that hold feminism out as empowering women to pursue their sexual goals.

Anything that promotes a womens ability to pursue her own sexual goals is a sexual strategy.

Just as TRP, which promotes a mans ability to pursue his own sexual goals, is a sexual strategy.

"Feminists think women are morally superior to men!"

Yeah, a lot of you guys totally say this. I mean... I agree, when challenged, they'll back away in a cloud of dust kicked up by "Mansplaining !" and "You just don't get it!"

But most chicks, including most feminists, would also say "The world would be better if women ran it" and "You guys are too aggressive and violent" and "Women really are the natural peacemakers and co-operators".

That comes across as stating female superiority, just as our "We built civilisation, dammit !" comes across as the same.

You can't really hammer us on what we say without allowing us to hammer you on this. Whats good for the goose is good for the gander.

"Feminists think all men are rapists! I don't need anyone to teach me not to rape! Now excuse me while I bust through this slut's LMR!"

Yup. Because you count "going through LMR" as rape. And because every man on the planet goes through LMR, when you make statements like this you are accusing us all of being rapists.

You literally just did it again. Right there. On this thread.

Ok, ok, the last one was a joke but the "feminazis think all men are rapists" is real, this is actually what you guys think.

Well, if you are saying men going through LMR are rapists.... Thats exactly what you are saying, yes.

If you are going to back off that, then fine.

But, ya know, you guys accuse us of being rapists an awful lot.

I don't think we necessarily accuse you of "thinking all men are rapists" so much as "Calling loads of perfectly normal men rapists because you personally disagree with their legitimate tactics".

So. While we may not understand feminism. We understand what feminists do and what they constantly accuse us of doing and being.

And that is enough for us to thoroughly hate your guts... Because no innocent man is going to stand there and be called a rapist without fighting right back.

So we are your enemies. And as long as you keep calling us rapists, we'll stay your enemies.

I used to be a feminist. Would have described myself as one for nigh on 15 years.

It's this kind of fuckwittery that made me leave feminism about 5 years ago (4 years before RP).

Stop the fuckwittery and I'll come back.

But you can't, it's seared into your souls now... You don't know how to be a feminist without being a fuckwit... You won't even learn from the 2nd wavers who could show you how.

So we're just going to have to let you constantly drive away all your old allies, like me, one by one until there is just the nutty feminist rump left. Standing there all alone. Shivering in the cold.

Then the men will set the rabid dogs on you... and no-one will hear your screams. It'll just be "Oh, the fuckwits are screaming again. Wonder what it is this time. Oh well, they're always screaming about something".

And The Red Pill will stand on the pile of corpses, feeding from all the fresh red meat, and offer a howl of triumph to the stars before climbing down the pile, singling out a girl from the crowd, and saying "Hey bb u want sum fuk".

Because he's hot, and confident, and witty, and muscley, and dominant she'll agree.

And we'll fuck within sight of the piled corpses of feminism.

Atlas_B_Shruggin · 2015-06-12T15:51:01+00:00

The real question is do BPers

Bp pretends 100+ years of feminism didn't exist and that no ones read it's canon

Cyralea · 2015-06-12T15:38:02+00:00

Feminism, as a self-ascribed label, doesn't mean anything. There are no guidelines for being a feminist other than claiming you are one. It's no different than claiming that you're an Aarbit. A meaningless word.

Instead, you can identify feminists by their actions, as that's the only objective way to label people. What do feminists have in common?

"Feminists want to raise women above men!"

Feminists are proven to seek supremacy, even when they've already achieved it.

Women are favoured over men 2-to-1 for STEM hires.
Nearly 60% of college students are female.
Women in their 20's outearn men.

There are dozens of women-only scholarships, grants and hiring quotas.

And yet, no feminist outrage. Not one feminist saying we need to reverse this trend. Feminists say they're about equality, but their actions indicate supremacy.

"Feminism is female sexual strategy!"

What do feminists have in common? They're almost all low-SMV women, and nearly all their demands are means of gaining access to high SMV men, while making it hard for low-SMV men to have any options. I wrote about this in PPD a while back.

"Feminists think women are morally superior to men!"

Let's play a game. Go into any feminist forum, any one of them at all, and try to disagree with them in the most polite, sensitive way you can. Tell me how long it takes for them to call you a misogynist.

"Feminists think all men are rapists! I don't need anyone to teach me not to rape! Now excuse me while I bust through this slut's LMR!"

You don't understand what LMR is, presumably because you haven't actually had flings with multiple women. Don't judge what you don't understand.

GaiusScaevolus · 2015-06-12T16:53:13+00:00

Let's start this properly,

/u/Hamstronaut , what is your definition of feminism?

[deleted] · 2015-06-12T16:50:13+00:00

I understand feminism, I just don't understand why people think it's still necessary in the west.

FleetingWish · 2015-06-12T19:37:10+00:00

I'd like to think understand feminism.

It's the idea that women and men can be treated the same, and that is something worth striving for.
It is the idea that women, as a class, don't have things as good as men in some cases, and strives to make it so that they do.
It is the idea that people (including women) are individuals and should be treated as such.
It is a movement for the advancement of women

Just because I understand feminism, doesn't mean I agree with it. We butt heads on the very first point. I don't agree with the basic idea that equality can be achieved between the sexes (by any reasonable definition of the word "equality"). And even if it could be achieved by enough protesting (and enough redefining of the word "equality"), I don't agree that equality is something worth striving towards. It sounds great, but if you believe (like most red pillers do) that the sexes are fundamentally different, what you are doing is forcing people to go against their basic nature, which ends up making them miserable.

Feminism Lite^tm is followed by feminists who genuinely believe in equality, the kind who also would consider themselves MRAs. While I believe these women are genuinely well intentioned, they don't see the consequences of it and they don't see that striving for equality hurts men and women. It is sometimes frustrating to me how naive they seem, because we have had now 30, going on 40, years of feminism and what we have now is broken families, miserable men, and miserable women. At this point if you're still saying "the problem must be not enough feminism" then I am going to think you are not overly optimistic, but incredibly naive.

kick6 · 2015-06-12T19:23:48+00:00

All of those things you snarkily list as things that RPers think feminism is but you think aren't actually are feminism. As I've said elsewhere on this forum: RPers judge everyone on their actions, not their slogans. So in light of that:

"Feminists want to raise women above men!"

I give you the 77 cents to the dollar myth. Feminists want female elementary school teachers to get paid for their easy, safe, job the same amount that oilfield works get despite the fact that last year 138 drillers DIED on the job....................yet not a single teacher did. This is putting women above men.

"Feminism is female sexual strategy!"

fatacceptance. Yes, it's exactly that.

"Feminists think women are morally superior to men!"

Popular media that potrays fathers and boyfriends as bumbling idiots that must be saved from themselves by the special wiles of a woman is exactly that.

"Feminists think all men are rapists!

Well, yea. That's exactly the kinda shit they're saying: yes means yes, default guilt in rape accusations becase we should believe rape accusers, all men are potential rapists..and my favorite bit from the latter.

How are you part of rape culture? Well, I hate to say it, but it’s because you’re a man.

life_manager · 2015-06-12T19:44:02+00:00

I understand feminism very well. You could boil 80% of it down to "Patriarchy set the system up, patriarchy is to blame." The other 20% is "We want the same rights, expectations, and opportunities as men."

The issue I have with feminism is that it expects the whole world to disregard any differences between the gender and treat each the exact same. I don't think that's reasonable, because it's insulting to gender as a whole. Feminism solely focuses on issues for women meanwhile completely neglecting that men have it just as bad. The irony is that a massive mens' issue is that we are disposable and no one cares about men. We are killed in the workplace, drafted into the war (which is because men set the system up), and deemed the less emotional of the genders.

My other issue with feminism is that it promotes a completely androgynous gender. Like I said, we should celebrate our differences, not ignore them.

zikkitzo · 2015-06-12T21:56:08+00:00

As an atheist, I know the bible better than Christians so I can best defend my views.

As an anti-feminist, I know feminist history and dogma better than feminists so I can best defend my views.

Arguing with both groups is a frighteningly similar process. They bring emotion and feelings; AKA "faith". I bring rational logic and science. Running out of 'evidence' I haven't completely demolished they attack my character instead. The conversation ends with them somehow still thinking they are correct.

Prime example: Your last two lines. Feminists have created college courses on teaching men not to rape. How am I supposed to take that? Trying to 'teach' me something implies I'm not well educated on the subject matter.

Christian_Kong · 2015-06-12T18:54:45+00:00

Ive said this before many times. Things done/said under the guise of feminism covers a wide array of things. So when people say they are feminist they mean, "I believe in those things that I believe/want feminism is about, but not those crazy things the other feminists are doing." Feminism and the word feminism need to find an identity, lest everyone saying they are feminist need to take the good with the bad that comes with the "ideology." You dont get to pick and choose what you like about it and still call yourself one.

soylentblueissmurfs · 2015-06-13T00:15:21+00:00

[deleted]

What is this?

YES_BOIIS · 2015-06-12T15:39:09+00:00

"Gain all the benefits of being a man without any of the responsibilities while defending female privileges and special societal status under the guise of equality."

"freedom without losing protection, power without responsibility, and equal rights but special privilege."

That's feminism in a nutshell. Feminism hasn't had anything to do with equal rights ever since we achieved equal rights.

https://www.reddit.com/r/PurplePillDebate/comments/35hiob/is_feminism_slowly_dying/cr4usls

Nazrath2112 · 2015-06-12T17:49:32+00:00

I understand first wave feminism, i do not understand 3rd or current wave feminism.

wazzup987 · 2015-06-12T20:50:55+00:00

Not RP and not feminist,

The problem with feminism is that feminism is a giant motte and bailey argument. the radical man hating anti freedom arms of feminism are in acedamia, political office, government (unelected), media, lobbing and else where. So that nice feminist who sincerely wants equality, is the motte part of motte and bailey, aka a useful idiot. mean while bailey is destroying due process, putting there thumb on the scale for women where ever possible, and quietly writing laws and policies that don't get noticed until years later (ie the 2011 dear colleague letter, numerous rape and IPV studies and laws, and loads of policy changes).

[deleted] · 2015-06-12T20:41:47+00:00

Feminism is so far up the ivory tower that you can't meaningfully comment on it until studying it for a decade, meaning that only serious feminists will self select and it will go unopposed. It's like what the Catholic church did by controlling who can read during the middle ages and owning the education/science faculties. We disagree with some fundamental premises and understand what a hamster is. Moreover, we'll talk to you here and happilysinglewoman is living proof that we'll endlessly try to educate people about our theory. Try that on any feminist sub and watch the ban hammer fly.

thereddespair · 2015-06-12T15:27:33+00:00

what makes one think its just trp that thinks modern day western feminists are out of their minds lol. honestly even blue pill people thinks its a joke, they just dont laugh in the open. hell even women think its a joke. i think its a joke lol.

but, as has been explained its a joke that works. the more bullshit feminists stir, the more popular they are the more revenue they actually get. from their sites to donations from idiots to people with other motives business wise.

people think its about men and women, that is the consequence but end of the day it operates in a more business like model i think. feeding on the welfare of both men and women.

its a good thing back then that has turned into cancer now

TRPAlternative · 2015-06-12T15:31:30+00:00

'Feminazi' is a term made specifically to call the ridiculously extreme feminists who say things like 'Kill all men' I'm pretty sure.

Additionally, you don't have to be a genius to see how women tend to have an advantage in the eyes of the law, social situations (Many men will do almost anything jus to please a women when she gives little back) and in sex (Women control when sex happens, and it's not uncommon for women to see it as a 'reward' for men when they've done well).

Basically, we're not saying feminism is inherently wrong with equality. However, the feminism which is so prevalent in modern society gives women so many edges over men, yet still states that it's unfair in men's favour.

spotH3D · 2015-06-12T17:52:06+00:00

I think one thing to keep in mind is that in some ways, popular media does a good job of presenting the certain POVs, agenda's, etc, in such a manner that you cannot escape being well exposed to it.

Then you add in how gargantuan the feminist movement is, with them in more recent years greatly pushing for more membership, saying that feminism is for men, etc etc.... It's become quite watered down in some ways.

Certainly with a group that large there are different..... factions, and they may internally have their own ideas of what feminism is, or just what its focus should be on.

So myself, having heard many different people explain what feminism means to them, I hear many different things.

As with people, political parties, organizations, you can say or publish anything you want to explain what you're all about. I'll be ignoring that and paying attention to what you do.

That is how feminism is being judged by the everyone else, we don't care how you define it.

Final thought, another interesting question, how many "true" feminists are there? Obviously a significant number of verbal supporters only say they are because where they live or who they must hang out with requires them to fit in.

chazzALB · 2015-06-12T18:31:15+00:00

Both sides fully understand what is presented to them concerning the other side.

If there's a misunderstanding, then we would need to look at the presentation.

[deleted] · 2015-06-12T22:42:41+00:00

"Feminists want to raise women above men!"

Some self-identified feminists are incredibly sexist and actually consciously or subconsciously believe that men are intrinsically inferior/dangerous/stupid. Some of them act on it by advocating policies that would be directly oppressive to men. For example, many feminist groups would be against giving gender-based financial aid to men to attend college, even though women have had it for years and as a result now something like %62 of people who can afford to achieve higher-education are women.

"Feminism is female sexual strategy!"

It can feel like that sometimes. A woman who uses feminism to argue for constraints to be placed on all men, but then makes special exemption to those constraints for men they are attracted to, certainly would seem to be using a front of egalitarianism to further their own personal sexual interests.

"Feminists think women are morally superior to men!"

A great many of them do. I've heard strongly-identified feminists say with a straight face that all men are rapists, that all heterosexual sex is rape, that male sexuality is intrinsically evil, that men are intrinsically unable to understand social situations, that all men are intrinscially violent, that women are nicer on average, that women are smarter on average, etc etc.

"Feminists think all men are rapists! I don't need anyone to teach me not to rape! Now excuse me while I bust through this slut's LMR!"

Some do. Also, ironically, "LMR busting" usually involves explicitly backing off, going cold, and respecting consent, as a way of forcing your partner to take responsibility for their desires or not and perceive that you are scarce and not a sure thing. This is basically exactly what feminist theory says you should do when someone wavers on consent. No means no, so if someone says no I'm walking the fuck out.

[deleted] · 2015-06-12T23:06:13+00:00

I think I could pass off as a feminist if I wanted to go undercover for some reason.

lxnarratorxl · 2015-06-13T05:52:00+00:00

Feminism has no currently defined agenda or goals, its just something people throw around when they do things. The definition fits each different groups desire of what they want it to be. Clickbait fems use a differnt one than people on twoX who use difffernt terms than the one on r/feminism. Your interpretation may be differnt from even those in your friend group.

[deleted] · 2015-06-13T11:34:02+00:00

Honestly. I just like the moderates of any party.

Radical Feminists are just as bad as Radical RPers which in turn are just as bad as Radical BPers.

TheJollySatan · 2015-06-14T11:57:07+00:00

I've studied sociology, I have a better grasp than most on the falsifiable conflict theory throw back which feminism is.

If you want accurate social policy, you need to use social theories in conjunction with evo psych and each other.

alcockell · 2015-06-12T19:32:57+00:00

I think much of RP views all feminists as the most extreme of feminists.

hyperrreal · 2015-06-12T17:25:54+00:00

I'm sure there are a handful of exceptions, but overall no. It's not possible to understand a text or a movement that you have never openly approached.

Title	Do RPers understand feminism?
Author	Hamstronaut
Upvotes	3
Comments	95
Date	June 12, 2015 3:19 PM UTC (11 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/PurplePillDebate
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/PurplePillDebate/comments/39lczm/do_rpers_understand_feminism/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/PurplePillDebate/do-rpers-understand-feminism.281655 https://theredarchive.com/post/281655

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