If you hate hypergamy so much, why not stop marrying "lower" women?

bippodotta · 2014-03-03T15:20:46+00:00

This is misleading:

In 4 out of every 10 American households with children under 18, the female is the primary breadwinner.[4] That's nearly half!

A more thoughtful presentation of the same survey results:

But a little detail was often lost in the large-font headlines. Sixty percent of “breadwinner-mom” families are really just single-mom families. In fact, single moms account for precisely one-quarter of U.S. households. Single dads make up another 6 percent.

http://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2013/09/the-mysterious-and-alarming-rise-of-single-parenthood-in-america/279203/

aaron_the_just · 2014-03-03T12:16:55+00:00

Red Pill adherents aren't against hypergamy. Hypergamy is fundamental to human nature.

MRA people, MGTOW, and to a lesser extent all Red Pill people are against divorce laws which were created in a patriarchal era, assume hypergamous marriages, and since then have been made progressively more anti-male.

(No bitterness on my part, personally: my divorce went smoothly and I think I got the better end of the deal. We did it all without lawyers.)

Also, in your particular case, you'd pretty much be guaranteed alimony; it almost always ends up being paid to the person who attended school during the marriage, not the other way around.

tetrahydrous · 2014-03-03T04:30:52+00:00

In 4 out of every 10 American households with children under 18, the female is the primary breadwinner.

And in 3 out of every 10 American households with children under 18, the father was kicked out of the house and is no longer in the running for 'breadwinner'.

mephesto · 2014-03-03T05:01:37+00:00

I'm guessing it's because there are some alimony cases that are a little ridiculous, like way more money than is necessary to live a decent life because courts feel like they should be able to maintain a certain lifestyle. Sometimes the divorce happens through no fault of the husband, why should he have to pay his wife because she decided to fall in love with her tennis instructor? That would piss me off to.

I'm a stay at home mom. If we got divorced I would be a little bit screwed because of my huge employment gap, but that's the risk I'm taking. The reward is that I will never have to work at a "job" ever again. I can raise my kids, cook, clean, sew, garden, work out, stay young and stress free. That is an amazing life and completely worth the risk to me. I personally think that if you chose to take that risk it's on you. I don't expect alimony, but my husband is a good man and I'm sure he'll give me some of his accumulated wealth so I'm not on the street (which is not the same as alimony).

throwaway-o · 2014-03-03T11:21:50+00:00

I donno where you got this notion, but TRP is not against hypergamy. TRP accepts hypergamy as fact.

fiat_lux_ · 2014-03-03T05:22:20+00:00

I personally don't mind hypergamy. I wrote a thread about it.

What I do mind is the following:

1) Propaganda that tries to downplay it. It happens. It might not be a big deal to me personally, but upwards marital social mobility happens much more often for women than men.

2) Aversion to hypogamy from women. For whatever reasons (and there may be many--some of them even legit), women generally don't want to have long-term relationships with poorer and less ambitious men.

Hypergamy is fine. If it works out, and then the wealthy guy is spreading his wealth downwards. What a nice way to spread the wealth naturally without force. This happens far less often with women as they avoid hypogamy more than men, and their wealth stays in their own economic class (or above), further contributing to wealth inequality.

The hypermajority of relationships have the husband be the primary breadwinner. OP, your link doesn't tell the whole picture. Here is a Pew Research article on the issue.. Almost two-thirds of those breadwinner moms are single moms (so of course they'd be the breadwinners). So really, it's just about 15% or less households with children where the mom brings home more dough than the dad (if the dad is present).

3) The attitude that comes with this whole argument. Hypoagency. Why is all the agency with the man? Is it always the man who has the choice whom he has a relationship with? What about womens' agency?

I've even heard supposedly enlightened bpers talk about how it's men's fault that successful women in places like Asia can't find relationships. Supposedly, men are too conservative and can't handle an independent woman. It's the biggest load of crap. Sure, lower class men and their high standards are exactly why these wealthy women can't find a man... ^{a man up to their standards.} Sure.

I don't know why it's so hard for some people to accept wealthy people have more options in general than poor people... i.e. wealthy women have more options than poor men.

Wealthy men are willing to marry down, and they shouldn't be castigated for that. My concern is that a lot of women are becoming successful and independent, and have the options but still refuse to marry down. They'd rather stay as strong independent single women.

trabant00 · 2014-03-03T09:30:32+00:00

You draw conclusions based on your future plans as if they would already be here, tried and tested. Funny, just a few years after major economical earthquakes people act as if the future is certain.

You're young and inexperienced. In fact any number of things could happen. You career may go nowhere, your relationship with your husband can change in so many ways... One partner sacrificing hist career for the other is a gamble that can go very wrong economically and emotionally. Safest and fairest choice is both making the best out of their opportunities.

IIHotelYorba · 2014-03-03T16:52:48+00:00

In the event of divorce, why shouldn't you have to continue a reduced portion of your end of the agreement? All your chores, vacuuming, meal preparation, and things like that that he needs in order to keep functioning while he works? Why should he still have to support you but you not have to support him?

After all, he sacrifices everything, his time with his children, his independence, his life to work every single day to buy you every piece of clothing, stick of furniture, meal, car, and insurance payment you have.

I personally think alimony is another instance of society treating women like children. If he can do his own chores, you can earn your own money.

So I don't understand why men bitch and moan about alimony, and I'm just sitting here, a woman, perfectly content with it.

That's interesting. I wonder if this is like other situations where people come into something mostly by choice, and have a hard time relating to the emotions of others who largely have had it forced upon them.

lbspredh · 2014-03-03T12:21:29+00:00

how does

Not only that, but why shouldn't you pay alimony?

fit in the same rant as

Wow, it's almost like men and women are, like, equal or something

that's a striaght up contradcition. if you treat everyone equally then the woman should be morally and legally responsible for the consequences of her consensual actions and choices, to the same degree as men. forcing men to have a responsibility for someone they are not responsible for is anything but equality.

and how does your husband supporting you while you study equate to

I wrote this while reflecting on my personal situation with my husband and myself, which seems to me like a pretty typical "one spouse works while the other makes babies" scenario, but with traditional gender roles switched.

sounds just like the traditional gender role of the man supporting his wife no?

as for the TRP beef about hypergamy I was lead to understand that according to their ideas it bothers them because it apparently makes women want to cheat and then leave their partners at the first opportunity. now think what you will of that belief but you're saying it's about status issues to them and it's not what they claim.

So I don't understand why men bitch and moan about alimony, and I'm just sitting here, a woman, perfectly content with it.

well you wouldnt, as the beneficiary of such a system why on earth would you not be content?

and if you don't mind me saying your idea that your going to be making mega bucks from an education is incredibly optimistic in this economy.

TL;DR what actually are you on about?

GaiusScaevolus · 2014-03-03T05:42:11+00:00

So I don't understand why men bitch and moan about alimony, and I'm just sitting here, a woman, perfectly content with it.

You say that now. When you still love and respect your husband.

Why should a woman get to just up file for divorce and be guaranteed alimony and (in all reasonable probability) custody/ child support? If a person (man OR woman) wants to support themselves off their spouse's income, stay married.

As for the hypergamy matter, I don't mind that it happens, I just wish people would admit it happens.

fiat_lux_ · 2014-03-03T17:50:05+00:00

EDIT2: Just so you guys know, I am not referring to "extreme" or completely unreasonable cases. I am aware that women frequently and thoroughly buttfuck men in divorce proceedings to uphold an outrageous standard of living (who needs 40k/year?!). I wrote this while reflecting on my personal situation with my husband and myself, which seems to me like a pretty typical "one spouse works while the other makes babies" scenario, but with traditional gender roles switched.

In response to your edit:

I wrote in my other post that I "prefer" women not just use alimony to be complacent with lifetime alimony, but that is just a preference because I prefer all people be encouraged to work harder. There are cases where 40k/year is entirely justified.

For example, my mother worked a couple jobs while my father worked on his PhD. This was a stressful time for her and drove her crazy (I know because she took it out on me).

Now my father makes close to 200k, and my mother is at a point in her life where she's too old to just develop a new career from scratch on her own, her English and communication skills still suck, and I think she still has a few screws loose. She's basically content playing around with some stocks using some play money that my father and I fund. I'd be a hypocrite to say 40k/year is only fair for my mother and not any others. It would actually be a gross injustice if she only got 40k/year. Granted, she'd survive if assets were divided evenly, but it would still be a significant drop in standard of living since she's well past the age of remarriage or re-education.

hyperrreal · 2014-03-03T21:56:55+00:00

Late to the party here but I am gonna chime in regardless.

To address your concerns about alimony. The people complaining about it are the people paying. Period. More men have to pay alimony, thus they complain more. Now that women are starting to have to pay up more, they are raising issues with it as well. See Here and Here.

So yea, alimony whining is a rich person phenomena, not a uniquely male phenomena. To clarify I am not against alimony in theory.

Also TRP is not really about championing the ultra-rich who feel like they got cheated in their divorce. It's more about the average guy, who has received so much bad advice from mainstream sources about what is attractive to women. "Just be nice," "Be yourself," "Bring flowers," "Happy wife happy life," I could go on forever. These guys don't know enough to even be able to assess their attractiveness relative to their partners. So I don't know how we can expect them to marry or date or date women close to them in attractiveness. They have no idea where to even begin.

Others have said this, but TRP is about recognizing hypergamy, not fighting it.

sh1v · 2014-03-05T06:28:03+00:00

Short answer: we ARE discouraging that. TRP is fairly anti marriage for a variety of reasons. It's only when you've already committed to the somewhat fallacious path of actually getting married, that Red pill marriage begins to become strategically relevant.

Most men in TRP will look at ways to subvert, exploit or avoid the negative effects of hypergamy, certainly not encourage it. No one is saying "go out and marry those trophy wives" we're mostly saying "go out and pump and dump those would be trophy wives."

If, heaven forbid, we have kids in 5 years and get divorced in 10 or 20

It's good that you're planning for this now. I'd have a game plan for 5 though.

FYI, the difference is that he's supporting you through school. Most women do not contribute that kind of "support" to their men, the closest they come is rearing children while the man supports them all, and even this behavior is hardly a requisite for alimony.

You're mad that TRP doesn't like hypergamy but ignore the fact that it usually hits us worse and is largely a male problem. And even your own example bears that out. You're being supported right now. Men who get slammed by alimony were already supporting their SOs to begin with and then have the chains slapped on so that they have to continue doing so as their former wife goes to enjoy herself on his dime, but on some other guy's cock.

2comment · 2014-03-03T05:52:36+00:00

I'm not married.

-Tyler_Durden- · 2014-03-03T11:40:20+00:00

You will eventually resent your husband for not being the provider / protector. Evo/Psych research backs up this claim. It's women who promote this idea, not men. We eventually realize this and stay away from the type A professional women. Not because they make more, but because of the increased shit testing and BS that comes along with them.

Also, Imaginary Engineers do not make "dollah-dollah bills yall"; if you think this career will make you rich, you are mistaken.

TRPACC · 2014-03-03T13:15:02+00:00

Hypergamy isn't just about money.

It is not marrying someone of a superior caste or class (i.e. the dictionary definition). It is not preferring the most sexually attractive of potential mates over those who are less attractive (which, after all, is a bit of a tautology when you get right down to it). It is not seeing men as ‘success objects.’

‘Feminine hypergamy’ — the feminine sexual preference which tends to create disparate sexual dynamics — is seeing moderately attractive men or those of average attractiveness as ‘sub-par’.

http://www.feministcritics.org/blog/2012/05/29/what-is-feminine-hypergamy-noh/

In 4 out of every 10 American households with children under 18, the female is the primary breadwinner.[4] That's nearly half!

We teach women that its their choice and right to go right ahead and have children without a consensual, present and suitable father, and we have very biased divorce laws that allow women to live "independently", while still living off the man, so it's no wonder there are a lot of female headed homes.

Breeding the concept of fatherhood near out of existence in the lower classes isn't some sort of success for women. Its the creation of multi generational poverty and welfare dependence.

GridReXX · 2014-03-03T05:15:18+00:00

I never understood this either. You could easily marry a woman with her own means and career and not have to worry about a lot of it.

[deleted] · 2014-03-03T03:28:04+00:00

[permanently deleted]

yasee · 2014-03-03T23:04:59+00:00

Regarding alimony...

My dad left when I was five. My mom had been a stay-at-home-parent for 8 years at that point, and my younger brother was just 7 months old and still nursing. To expect her to go out and immediately find a shit job to support herself was not realistic, so my dad paid her spousal support. Not only do I think that was fair, it was super frigging vital to the survival of our family during a really difficult time and I am grateful to my dad for taking responsibility that way.

I think when people discuss alimony, they have a tendency to go straight to the "extreme" cases, as you point out. I get that; when my fairly well-off uncle was divorced by his wife I had mixed feelings about her being entitled to half his assets. But the reality is that when you get married, you're becoming a cooperative unit; you join your finances, and absent a pre-nup you split assets down the middle because that was the agreement from the outset. If you don't think that's a fair or beneficial agreement to you, get a pre-nup or just don't take the risk of getting married.

RedPillMX · 2014-03-04T09:16:03+00:00

TRP is about working whit what we have, hypergamy is real, and while the economic part is important to SMV, is not the only thing.

The solution to hypergamy even on LTR/marriage is to keep improving yourself, physically, economic, intellectually, to sustain a higher SMV than your wife/SO.

[deleted] · 2014-03-27T18:23:46+00:00

It's not anti-hypergamy to point out that it exists. Your statistic is also horribly misleading. When you only include married couples with children, just 15% have the woman contributing more than 50% of the income. Finally, the reason TPRers tend to avoid marrying "up" is because the fundamental differences between men and women automatically make this a contentious relationship. The divorce rate nearly doubles for couples where the women makes more money.

BabeOfBlasphemy · 2014-03-03T06:56:07+00:00

"I want a hot girl"
"I want a girl with no sexual history" "I want a young girl"
"I want a girl who will cook, clean, birth & raise my kids"
I want a wife on a perpetual diet, pregnancy is no excuse, her mission should be my attraction!"
"I will decide if she aborts or gestates!"
"I will pay as little as possible for these children if we split."
"I will not pay alimony even if her life was sacrificed for me."

Notice the theme of selfishness in these statements? Irrational Egotism and entitlement is the foundation of TRP...

AdmiralVonJackass · 2014-03-03T18:56:13+00:00

Why are you thinking about this concept at all? Are you trying to resolve some guilty feelings you have over your husband bankrolling your education? Perhaps other men are looking a bit more attractive to you than him?

In happy relationships there is never much to explain. It is a basic state of all needs being fulfilled. I notice when there is a dissonance, rationalizations start being required, and the pondering begins.

If you want another man, I wouldn't suggest losing your provider over it. Rather, challenge him to better himself so that he can fulfill your sexual needs.

Title	If you hate hypergamy so much, why not stop marrying "lower" women?
Author	[deleted]
Upvotes	17
Comments	148
Date	March 3, 2014 3:09 AM UTC (12 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/PurplePillDebate
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/PurplePillDebate/comments/1zegxq/if_you_hate_hypergamy_so_much_why_not_stop/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/PurplePillDebate/if-you-hate-hypergamy-so-much-why-not-stop.286133 https://theredarchive.com/post/286133

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