Presentation Matters / discussion

Scurvemuch · 2016-12-27T15:34:40+00:00

In reading most RP and BP folks on here, I find that once we have our definitions lined up , the core ideas of RP are readily accepted by most BP'ers. The...

[–]future_space_boobs 18 points19 points20 points 9 years ago* (75 children) | Copy Link

the problem with RP is that it takes truths that most of us who were socialized normally (not you spergs, I know you thought Disney was real) grew up accepting, packages them with misogyny and cringey jargon, and takes credit for the whole damn thing.

🆗 women value looks in selecting a partner

🆗 getting in shape and not being fat will make you more attractive to more women. your sparkling personality won't make up for the fact that you're a fat fuck.

🆗 supplicating "nice guy" behavior is not attractive and will not get you laid

🆗 attractive people have options, act as if you do even if you don't

❎ the mythical "Chad" is the only guy who has casual sex. your girlfriend is probably thinking about Chad or texting him right now.

❎ your ex-girlfriend cheated on you? women are a monolith and will all cheat on you. with Chad.

❎ women are teenagers/stop maturing at 18. you know that guy she was attracted to at 18? she'll literally never get over him. she's probably texting him right now. his name? Chad.

❎ none of this is emotional or has anything to do with how we feel (that's for females,) we are paragons of logic.

❎ women are dried up by 30. all those bitches who dated Chad will be begging me to get with me at 30 but I'll be banging coeds. hot coeds, probably blondes and no older than 7,110 days old. men age like wine, ladies. also I can totally tell a 30-year-old from a 28-year-old from a 26-year-old.

❎ I'm definitely not writing erotica for upvotes or embellishing my night at the club.

❎ as a RP man I don't care about women's looks, I care about their actions. this is why I describe every woman I encounter's breast size, hair color, outfit, and 1-10 rating in excruciating detail.

[–]Scurvemuch 5 points6 points7 points 9 years ago (31 children) | Copy Link

[–]future_space_boobs 4 points5 points6 points 9 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link

[–]Scurvemuch 3 points4 points5 points 9 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

[–]sublimemongrelBecky, Esq.0 points1 point2 points 9 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

[–]Scurvemuch 2 points3 points4 points 9 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

[–]sublimemongrelBecky, Esq.0 points1 point2 points 9 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]Scurvemuch 0 points1 point2 points 9 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

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[–]disposable_pants3 points4 points5 points 9 years ago (16 children) | Copy Link

[–]i_have_a_semicolonPurple Pill Woman1 point2 points3 points 9 years ago (8 children) | Copy Link

[–]disposable_pants1 point2 points3 points 9 years ago (7 children) | Copy Link

[–]i_have_a_semicolonPurple Pill Woman0 points1 point2 points 9 years ago (6 children) | Copy Link

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[–]i_have_a_semicolonPurple Pill Woman-1 points0 points1 point 9 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

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[–]i_have_a_semicolon0 points 9 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

I can't help but mock because it's true. It's not a circle jerk. Men mock women all the time and "hamster" that it's not circle jerking because they're just sharing notes and speaking about ideas. I made a controversial claim, that men who complain about blue pill conditioning never realized they needed to grow up. Not growing up is definitely something worth mocking. Again, red pillers do not hesitate to mock, belittle, or even CJ about blue pillers and women, so you can't really complain. That's the pot calling the kettle black.

The # of people who hold an exaggerated view and speak hyperbolically is high enough in red pill to paint such a picture. Why focus on my tone excessively, because you don't want to face something that potentially makes you out to be the bad guy? Because you couldn't help being ignorant ? Because no one grows up really and people need TRP ? I doubt the last one. Blue pill conditioning is an overblown issue precisely because there are natural alphas and guys who understand how women really are without having to rely on their upbringing and childhood exposure to media / societal influence / community influence. Maybe most people aren't , but wouldn't the root issue be their inability to move past that shit without having to subscribe to red pill ? If they just realized when they were young what's real and what's not on their own they wouldn't need red pill. And that's what bothers people. The possibility they never "grew up" hurts them, because admitting fault isn't an issue with just women.

Who's taking pride here? Red pillers talk about how dumb they were not to have seen this stuff before all the time. This is another straw man.

They may admit fault when it makes them look good, or going through anger phase, but then they flip flop between saying they are stupid and just incessantly complaining about how worse off they are because of blue pill conditioning. The complaining is the bullshit part to me. Everyone is disadvantaged in some way, focusing solely on how men have fallen prey to blue pill conditioning disregards that everyone should self actualize and seek truth. Regardless of when you were both or what conditions you were born in. Focus not on what you were but what you are to become.

I just want to clarify, it seems like you think that I think all redpills believe in this extreme way. It's not so, but there are times when they have a reasonable discussion and times when not and it's just edgy overblown hyperbolic comments. They get upvoted too. I think this has been more pronounced in the past year as opposed to before then.

[–]disposable_pants1 point 9 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]i_have_a_semicolon0 points 9 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

I wrote out a large response that explains why I throw a mocking comment in there. Just because my tone doesn't please you doesn't mean it's not true. The blue pill, I don't really give a fuck about their sub Reddit, they are kind of annoying but if I want to see what shitty things red pills are saying I will use tbp

And I don't read TBP comment threads. I just look for TBP that links TRP or asktrp and read their threads. They are really good at mocking women, so that's where all the rejection of red pill comes from. How can I agree with a community of people who says such shitty things about women AS A WHOLE? I can't...That's why we have these arguments. The people in theredpill can say anything they want against a woman, whether it be really sexist and hyperbolic and circlejerky or not.

Basically you're wrong to assume I am a blue piller and that I read the blue pill. I will sometimes drop by the blue pill to see what kind of shit they have dragged out of the red pill. Again all of my opinions come from reading posts from red pillers. Comment chains etc. Not my fault search engines suck and I just don't have the time to read through bullshit but hey if I start needing to save really shitty posts for the future so you can believe me and not just think I'm speaking out of my ass OK. I will do that.

[–]sublimemongrelBecky, Esq.0 points1 point2 points 9 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link

[–]disposable_pants1 point2 points3 points 9 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

[–]sublimemongrelBecky, Esq.2 points3 points4 points 9 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

How is that open minded?

I wouldn't call it close minded. Maybe not educated, but that's not really close minded.

And I don't mean "misrepresent" in the "I have a difference of opinion" sense, it's the "I'm claiming you're saying X when you're saying Y" sense.

Part of this is the nature of TRP, which is ultimately is shaped by it's members. So, for example, you have RP theory with something like dread game. Dread game can mean simply being an attractive man all the way to flirting with women in front of your wife and intentionally making her fear you will cheat or leave her. TRP says "this is the information, apply it how you want, we won't judge."

So then when you see this concept discussed, you see a range of applications -- ranging from benign to what many would believe is harmful. In that respect, when a bloop says "dread game is manipulative and harmful" that person isn't wrong -- that's just only one application of the concept. And just because YOU, as a red piller, wouldn't necessarily apply it that way doesn't mean TRP or it's many other members would.

My point is that RP theory isn't black and white, there isn't one clear "correct" application of the concepts. So I think when you see bloops getting it "wrong" what you are really seeing is bloops taking issue with applications that certain reds promote that you disagree with.

Why do you assume your experience is typical?

Because I've been around a while, I know who the regular blue pillers are, and I've seen the same thing happen to them. Look I know there's a few snarky blue pill regulars. But for the majority of us -- particularly the regulars -- we are far more open minded. Just look how much women are shit on daily on PPD. Daily. As a woman I have to be pretty open minded to expose myself to that shit, much less debate it with a level head (which I admit sometimes I don't do the best job doing). Imagine if the blue pillers from PPD came to TRP or something and started making misandrist claims all over the place -- do you think they'd take it well? I think the blue pill regulars just tend to be more patient and open minded than the reds, partly because we have to be if we want to stick around this sub with all the bullshit about how much "women" suck.

[–]disposable_pants0 points1 point2 points 9 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

I wouldn't call it close minded.

Then what's your definition of "closed minded", and how does it not include "I refuse to even read this"?

In that respect, when a bloop says "dread game is manipulative and harmful" that person isn't wrong -- that's just only one application of the concept.

If you write an article on how to start a fire, and I use that information to burn down a building, is there any justification for calling the information itself "harmful"?

So I think when you see bloops getting it "wrong" what you are really seeing is bloops taking issue with applications that certain reds promote that you disagree with.

The issue is when very few red pillers promote a given application to begin with (to the point that it's hard to find clear examples), and much of the time those red pillers are downvoted by TRP itself, and yet blues try and hold up that example as representative of TRP as a whole. It'd be like a small, nearly insignificant number of arsonists using your fire-starting advice to burn down buildings, and then people attacking you and your information for being harmful.

Imagine if the blue pillers from PPD came to TRP or something and started making misandrist claims all over the place

Blue pillers shit on TRP in every single thread, often without making even an attempt at a substantive point.

[–]sublimemongrelBecky, Esq.1 point2 points3 points 9 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

Then what's your definition of "closed minded", and how does it not include "I refuse to even read this"?

Being closed off to new ideas, interpretations or beliefs. Most bloops who don't read TRP don't need to read it to understand it. TRP isn't a bunch of difficult concepts, it's pretty easy stuff. Plus we read what TRP members say about it here.

If you write an article on how to start a fire, and I use that information to burn down a building, is there any justification for calling the information itself "harmful"?

This isn't what I said -- I said the application can be harmful or benign. I don't think bloops are going around arguing that the information is "bad" -- we argue that the application is morally wrong, hurtful, or that the information is inaccurate.

The issue is when very few red pillers promote a given application to begin with (to the point that it's hard to find clear examples), and much of the time those red pillers are downvoted by TRP itself, and yet blues try and hold up that example as representative of TRP as a whole. It'd be like a small, nearly insignificant number of arsonists using your fire-starting advice to burn down buildings, and then people attacking you and your information for being harmful.

This is exactly what you guys do with feminism. Regardless, when those members come to PPD to debate TRP it's unfair to ask us to not debate it the way it's presented here. And once again -- there is no "right way" to apply TRP -- it's just information and it tells members to use it the way they see fit. So even you here telling me those members are getting it wrong, well if you want to get technical, RP might say they their application is counterproductive or ineffective but not that it's "wrong."

Blue pillers shit on TRP in every single thread, often without making even an attempt at a substantive point.

Because many TRP members are misogynistic and openly admit it. TRP shits on women -- a whole gender -- daily. BP doesn't shit on men, only on TRP. If you don't like it then shut down the members who you believe are mischaracterizing it.

[–]disposable_pants0 points1 point2 points 9 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Most bloops who don't read TRP don't need to read it to understand it.

In what other area of life would this line of reasoning fly? If you were in school, could you get away with telling a teacher/professor "I don't need to read it to understand it"? If you were at work, and your boss asked you to read a report, could you get away with "I don't need to read it to understand it"? If a friend asked you to read an article or a story they were working on, could you get away with "I don't need to read it to understand it"?

Anywhere else, not reading something is recognized as A) zero effort to understand it and B) ignorance of it. Refusing to read something is the definition of "being closed off to new ideas".

we argue that the application is morally wrong, hurtful, or that the information is inaccurate.

Well everyone knows that arson is hurtful. Who's saying it isn't? You don't find guys on TRP cheering on abuse, for example.

RP might say they their application is counterproductive or ineffective but not that it's "wrong."

The underlying philosophy of TRP is "do what works, even if it seems counterintuitive or you've been told not to". An application that's counterproductive or ineffective is wrong on TRP, in the same way that attempting to become a woman's friend, then years later ask her out on a date is "wrong".

TRP shits on women -- a whole gender -- daily. BP doesn't shit on men, only on TRP.

The topic is on who keeps a level head and open mind in the face of other people attacking them. If the scope of the group that's being attacked is material, it'd make sense that it's harder to keep an open mind if a group closer to you, or a group you've chosen. If someone makes fun of me for being an American, whatever -- they're making fun of many people, many of whom are nothing like me, and I'm just part of that group by default. If someone says "your whole friend group is a bunch of assholes", they're insulting people quite a bit like myself who I've personally chosen as friends. It doesn't make sense to argue that shitting on a smaller, personally chosen group is less offensive than shitting on a broad group you just happened to be born into.

[–]SipsSparklingWater 0 points1 point2 points 9 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

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[–]disposable_pants3 points4 points5 points 9 years ago (33 children) | Copy Link

This shit is routinely seen

Where? Show me some links with red pillers saying "we are paragons of logic" and "Chad is the only one who has casual sex" and "women are a monolith." Very, very few red pillers taken stuff that literally, and the ones who do don't get upvoted. What gets upvoted are A) posts with a bit of nuance and detail that flesh out the big ideas and B) posts that remind users that while that nuance might exist, you should err on the side of caution. It's the exact same tension you'd see in a gun safety course, where one second you'd be told how to check if a gun is unloaded and clean it and the next you'd be told that yes, all guns are loaded.

This is clear circlejerking; just look at the last three points edited in.

why do you think it is that you see some old school RPers themselves arguing that r/TheRedPill has turned to shit?

Because that same argument is made about literally every sub on reddit by older users. That's no more evidence that the current iteration of TRP/reddit is shit than "kids these days" is evidence that kids these days actually are [fill in the blank].

[–]future_space_boobs 5 points6 points7 points 9 years ago* (32 children) | Copy Link

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[–]future_space_boobs1 point 9 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

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[–]disposable_pants1 point 9 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]i_have_a_semicolon1 point 9 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Yes, I can do that. It's easy.

Women are irrational don't bother to have a rational discussion

I see the "women only sleep with chads" comments on PPD so that may be a strawman. But a good portion will believe that you're girlfriend is probably going to cheat

Besides I'm not saying trpers fully believe all of future space boobs claims. I said I've witnessed people agreeing with those sentiments. The point isn't for red pillers to come here and constantly claim we are using strawman. Why don't you try to debate it yourself I wonder ? Why not prove that red pillers really don't think X? Bringing up a strawman isn't necessarily shutting down discussion. You can always clarify and say, that's a strawman because of X. But I never see redpills do that, they're too busy that blue pillers have a less informed opinion than them. Sorry you can only read so much drivel before you have to leave.

It's hard to find these posts but they are there. There's discussion on them, but also disdain for things that go against the narrative. This is why it's brought up on PPD. People don't post on PPD when they just want to bitch and mock and don't want to discuss (unless they're an extremist fringe RP that stalks your messages and tells you repeatedly you only want to sleep with chad.)

Don't really need to get evidence for women are a monolith. NAWALT and unicorns don't exist are common themes in TRP discussions. Those are not argued or challenged and definitely agreeable to most red pillers. I have had countless people explain to me that outliers and exceptions don't count. It boggles my mind. Outliers aren't NAWALT too? All women do X or y , all women believe this. No women cares about a man's well being. It must be hard to qualify things with "most" or many because adding that would dilute their message maybe ? But if I were them I wouldn't just focus on that. Women want to not be like that, women want to be unicorns. (At least most of them probably do, exceptions would be people who really don't care about men to begin with). Well if that's the case don't complain when people take issue with it. Because it wasn't written for them, they want to know the truth, not that every field report confirms AWALT. Truth is more like, something that reminds us that no single person is not subject to not having flaws.

[–]disposable_pants1 point 9 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Women are irrational don't bother to have a rational discussion

Claiming that women are irrational (in the specific context of romantic relationships) does not imply that one is also claiming that men are perfectly rational at all times. If I claim you're a Democrat that doesn't imply that I'm also claiming I'm a Republican, right?

But a good portion will believe that you're girlfriend is probably going to cheat

Fair enough.

Why don't you try to debate it yourself I wonder ?

Because debating from a false premise is worse than useless. Not only is it a waste of time as the premise is false from the beginning, but it also lends credence to that false premise so that people who drive by the discussion leave with bad information.

Why not prove that red pillers really don't think X?

Because the burden of proof is on the one making the claim. If I say that Republicans want to do X, and you say they don't, I don't get to ask you to prove my claim wrong. That'd be absurd; I haven't even supported my claim in the first place. That which is asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence.

The rest of your comment is asserting things without evidence.

[–]i_have_a_semicolon1 point 9 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

You read the article right? It clearly makes men out to be the "rational" ones and only asserts women have an irrational nature. This leads to lots of red pills thinking they are inherently rational. I've seen many guys say , completely serious, "I'm lucky to be a man and be rational, idk how women can be so irrational" blah blah.

It's not worse than useless to debate a false premise. If you have counter evidence it shuts it right down. Provide counter evidence, provide the best TRP content. If the blue pill can be used to expose the worst of TRP, who is gonna expose the best of it?

The fact you cannot accept that half or more than half of the red pill posts are circle jerk and hyperbole is preventing you from winning any argument. you don't have to give credence by responding. Anyone who goes to the red pill will see people saying that shit. It already has credibility. Or if you want them to prove it first that's fine but be prepared for them to have something. Give me 1 hour to scour red pill and I'll find all of that shit. But I have better things to do with my time.... Unfortunately...

You're making the claim that red pill core theory is different from what is being said, so the burden of proof is on you for that claim. The claim that red pill does believe that stuff has that burden of proof too. But if you prove the opposite is true then it will shut it down. Sure you can prove them wrong. Just link a post to theory and watch them squirm... The fact you don't any ask them to provide evidence shows you don't even have the proof readily available (neither do I). Either way my assertion is not that red pill does believe those things, just that I've witnessed some red pill people believe those things. Once you stop being in denial of that then progress can be made.

The rest of my comment is based upon years ....Of reading the red pill... Just yesterday I saw a NAWALT/no unicorns exist comment...I just roll my eyes. Again...The nuanced stuff is probably more like ,30%... I think most of the posts are the opposite. But there's plenty of evidence and examples from either side and a red pill who denies that men don't say hyperbolic circle jerky shit is just as bad as a blue piller who denies that red pills don't ever discuss the nuance of their theories.

[–]disposable_pants1 point 9 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

You read the article right? It clearly makes men out to be the "rational" ones and only asserts women have an irrational nature.

Again, claiming X is true about women does not imply that the opposite of X is true about men.

It's not worse than useless to debate a false premise. If you have counter evidence it shuts it right down.

Here's an example of a false premise and an argument from it:

Premise: The United States has a horribly weak military.
Argument: Because the United States has a horribly weak military, we shouldn't be involved in Syria.

Sure, you can offer counterarguments about why we should be involved in Syria, but it's completely unnecessary because the whole basis of the argument -- the premise that the United States military is horribly weak -- is obviously false. And ignoring the false premise and disputing the argument just winds up misleading poorly informed observers, because both sides are taking something that's obviously false as a given. So not only are you taking a harder route to support your side of the discussion (you can debate the merits of involvement in Syria, but you can't reasonably debate the strength of the U.S. military relative to anything else in history), but you're also contributing to misinforming casual viewers.

And again, you're just asserting things without evidence for the rest of your comment. No matter how often you repeat yourself, I'm not just going to take you at your word that TRP is different from my own observations. If you can show that it's different, I'd consider that.

[–]i_have_a_semicolon0 points 9 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]disposable_pants1 point 9 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]i_have_a_semicolon1 point 9 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

That's because in this scenario there are two positives. You want me to prove that TRP upvoted rediculous claims that don't represent core or misrepresent it. I want you to prove that the claim there is nuanced good discussion of core topics. They're two different positive claims. I can support my claim if I take the time.

Also here's another perspective...Someone walks into asktrp and says "I think X not redpill strawman drivel is it true?", The proper response should be "no [insert insult], read sidebar". Sometimes people could be even more helpful. "Read X" "read y". I have actively sought the core advice (haven't read it all), but the existence of one does not negate the existence of the other (the shitposting)

(Edit, I know this does not follow from my previous argument. I wrote it in haste most likely and mixed up whatever I was thinking. Sure you're a burden of proof guy. I feel like still if I phrased it better it could make more sense. Like how theories can be proven true or very likely by proving that the opposite is false. Let's take for example, a test that could prove that a hypothesis is false. If you take the test and the hypothesis is not proven false, you basically have proven that the claim is probably true by probably not being false. Not totally great. But if you prove it false...Then there's no need to try to prove it true. The argument gets shut down. For instance let's say I say, there is no better and more accurate claim than this one, I cannot actually prove it true at all. The only thing that could prove it false would be negating it - showing there is a more accurate claim. I'm sure if it was worded differently...You'd get what I'm saying)

[–]disposable_pants1 point 9 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

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[–]disposable_pants1 point 9 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

What you could do is instead of attacking the quality of the argument, attack the content of it. "Red pill can't support x strawmen becase it clearly says this to the contrary".

That shows that blue pillers are wrong; calling out a dishonest premise shows that they're wrong and not really interested in understanding the other side's point.

observe the blue pill squirm if they can't respond to the deliberate overlooking of the absurdity of the claims just to get a chance to represent TRP the right way.

Except pointing out "no, TRP actually says something quite different" doesn't make them squirm; they just double down on their argument. The only thing left to do is ask them to link to where they're seeing what they're claiming they see, but by that point we're 5-6 comments deep and no one who's casually reading has clicked that far anyway. It's far better to point out from the beginning that they can't back up their claim, and won't even try.

[–]i_have_a_semicolon1 point 9 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Look, basically I say I've witnessed it, and I've witnessed those things get upvoted. I know there is nuanced discussion to be found too, but those are not as common. They're like unicorn posts. Red pillers themselves are often just subject to other red pillers opinions that are black and white, and they circle jerk and misrepresent their OWN ideas. It really just depends on the day. If you drop occasionally into the blue pill you will find that they can find strawman really easily. But not strawman they are making up. Strawman they have witnessed.

Edit: my final take on it is that future space boobs definitely misrepresented "core red pill" ideas and did focus in strawmen and hyperbole. I'm not defending her post. Rather, I'm defending where she gets it from. It's not from her mind, or even from unpopular comments. There's a plethora of both posts in TRP, angry phase ones which are picked up by the blue pill and mocked, and nuanced ones which the blue pill never gives recognition too. Yes, the complaints of redpill are cherry picked from highly upvoted posts even if there are other posts which clearly discuss those ideas in an in-depth and nuanced way. Maybe our complaints about the red pills lack of nuance is not justified. Let's just make an assumption. If 50% of the posts on the red pill are nuanced discussions, and 50% are circle jerk and hyperbole, how do you differentiate what is core from what is not? That's the big issue in this discussion. Red pillers focus only on the first half of posts and dismiss the others , and blue pillers do the same thing about the second half. As a purple piller I wonder why either can't just admit the other half exists. Maybe it's because evidence is thin to none. If we stopped attacking eachothers arguments and posted more evidence we would be in much better shape.

[–]disposable_pants1 point 9 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Look, basically I say I've witnessed it, and I've witnessed those things get upvoted.

Yet evidence of those things is hard to find. Why? Why do you have a clear memory of something that you can't reliably find an original version of? Here's what's happening:

You read blue pill circlejerking about how no-good, very-bad, awful terrible horrible TRP is.
You see a reasonably nuanced discussion on TRP about some concept you were first introduced to via blue pill circlejerking.
Confirmation bias kicks in (there's the answer to your "why are we focusing on different things?" question) so you pay far more attention to what backs up your existing negative opinion of TRP.
Memories of reasonably-stated stuff you merely disagree with blend with memories of blue pill circlejerking about similar concepts -- thus you remember "proof" of that circlejerking when you really just saw discussion about something similar.

For example, say you read on TBP that red pillers think that literally all women literally have the minds of eight year olds. Then you see some discussion on TRP about not engaging women rationally. You focus on the most inflammatory posts at the expense of more reasonable ones, and then over time you remember one poster who said "women act like teenagers" as "women have the minds of teenagers," and then this memory creeps to "literally all women literally have the minds of children" over more time. It's only natural; unless you spend as much time on TRP as you do here on on TBP you're going to get more exposure to circlejerking about caricatures of red pill ideas than you are to the ideas themselves. You remember what you're exposed to most.

Let's just make an assumption. If 50% of the posts on the red pill are nuanced discussions, and 50% are circle jerk and hyperbole, how do you differentiate what is core from what is not?... Red pillers focus only on the first half of posts and dismiss the others

Doesn't that answer your question about what should be considered "core"? If you press someone on their beliefs and they focus on X instead of Y, isn't it reasonable to say they really believe X?

[–]i_have_a_semicolon1 point 9 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

You're making too many assumptions here.

I spend more time on TRP and PPD than TBP.

I witness the posts with my OWN eyes... Not just via TBP...I just have trouble "finding examples" because I have to use Google search engine and really I don't know how the searches are working because only posts from like one year ago appear. I was planning on digging deeper today, but your response is not making me keen to do so. You're very dismissive.

I have seen red pillers literally say things that are rediculous as women are literally children. I try to engage them on debate and they double down. I can only do that on PPD since I know dissenters would be banned on TRP. But at the same time if I gave you examples from PPD you would argue that those red pills don't represent the real beliefs. Whatever, doesn't mean I made it up, a red pill really believed it.

It doesn't really answer because what I meant is that they focus on those posts (in PPD) but they don't actually link them. Let's say someone gives a strawman argument. They are BP and believe the strawman is what red pills believes . Red pill guy could just link the BP to what redpill really thinks about it. But they don't do that. They just say strawman!!! It's frustrating because even if it's split evenly that means anyone who comes to TRP subreddit will have a 50/50 chance of reading good content or reading bad. If they happen to read 4 bad posts and 1 good post, they will thing the 4 bad posts probably represent the norm. Red pill will say, nope it's not like that, but never goes the extra mile to back it up with evidence, at least to me they don't.

[–]FallacyExplnationBot2 points 9 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Hi! Here's a summary of what a "Strawman" is:

^A ^straw ^man ^is ^logical ^fallacy ^that ^occurs ^when ^a ^debater ^intentionally ^misrepresents ^their ^opponent's ^argument ^as ^a ^weaker ^version ^and ^rebuts ^that ^weak ^& ^fake ^version ^rather ^than ^their ^opponent's ^genuine ^argument. ^Intentional ^strawmanning ^usually ^has ^the ^goal ^of ^[1] ^avoiding ^real ^debate ^against ^their ^opponent's ^real ^argument, ^because ^the ^misrepresenter ^risks ^losing ^in ^a ^fair ^debate, ^or ^[2] ^making ^the ^opponent's ^position ^appear ^ridiculous ^and ^thus ^win ^over ^bystanders.

^Unintentional ^misrepresentations ^are ^also ^possible, ^but ^in ^this ^case, ^the ^misrepresenter ^would ^only ^be ^guilty ^of ^simple ^ignorance. ^While ^their ^argument ^would ^still ^be ^fallacious, ^they ^can ^be ^at ^least ^excused ^of ^malice.

[–]i_have_a_semicolon1 point 9 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Hey so - I found this - seems like I'm not the only person who notices the crappy quality on the sub, but they postulate its more like 25%.

https://www.reddit.com/r/TheRedPill/comments/5jvlzd/as_a_man_who_actively_agrees_with_most_of_these/

If I can find the actual crappy posts I'll link them too. Just two things

If I remember something someone said word for word I could type it into the google search engine to find it. Unfortunately i do not. I only remember a paraphrased version. So its hard to find specific posts
In order to find posts to prove my point, I have to read through several red pill posts before I find something. So I go on TRP and look at the front page. I scour for a title that seems like it would have the responses I'm looking for. I can find them this way.

Ultimately you are most likely right that TBP cherry picks the worst threads to make fun of. But those threads are also upvoted and circklejerked around. I think that if I were to categorize the red pill, it would be like

25% - Circle Jerk 10% - Good Content, Nuanced Discussion, Theory 65% - Neither CJ nor good content. Dull conversation, Field Reports, complaining, etc.

[–]disposable_pants1 point 9 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]i_have_a_semicolon1 point 9 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

I get it. But then don't complain if people dont subscribe to something or openly mock something that's 90% crap. I don't read text books that are 90% crap or do anything in my life with 90% crap.

This is why I believe the proper filters need to be in place. Sure we could use EC comments except ECs are just as likely if not more to spew whatever

And the posts...Are upvoted too.

Here's an appetizer thread with a bunch of amazing comments about women nature. Yeah no.... That's not true. I have a deal with myself. If I can finish my entire todolist tomorrow I will compile examples. If I do not finish it tomorrow but finish it the next day I'll do it then. If I don't finish I won't. Hopefully I can use this to motivate me to do all my crap. Searching through the redpill to find the exact quotes (rather than other equally rediculous quotes) ... Also I will save other rediculous posts to prove my point more.

Hope I can give you evidence. Till then...Happy debating

https://www.reddit.com/r/theredpill/comments/4x1so9

[–]disposable_pants1 point 9 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

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[–]LewisCross 2 points3 points4 points 9 years ago (28 children) | Copy Link

Really?

So you're fine with TRP's stances on:

--men and women are different

--women are hypergamous

--men and women are sexually attracted to different things in the opposite sex

--women are not attracted to nice guys being themselves, supplication or pedestalization

--women are attracted to good looks, muscles, confidence and dominance

--women cheat almost much as men do (supported by studies)

--women are not paragons of innocence and virtue

--a woman will do nasty ass sexual things for a man she's sexually attracted to that she will not do for a man she's "meh" about

--men's best bet to improve his looks is lose weight and improve his body's muscle tone and definition

--women lose sexual attractiveness as they age; a 35 year old woman is not as hot as she was at 25

--women can be raging bitches and cunts; there is not a single woman alive who has not at some point been a raging cunt; every woman has unleashed her cuntiness on some man at some point

--men like pretty faces, good bodies, big tits, long legs and shapely asses; and these things are far and away the most sexually attractive attributes women can offer

--the main value a woman brings to a man is sexual access to her body

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Love, affection, emotional bonding/support that is more than what he can obtain through a BFF (let's get real here, adults don't rely on their equally adult friends for social/emotional support they way they rely upon their SOs), a family, a secondary income to help support their lifestyles, daily caretaking (which let's be honest makes your life easier), helps you achieve your goals, not be lonely as you age, etc. There's a whole shit ton that isn't just sex.

Men who marry just for sex are low value (IMO). High value men can already get sex but they want more than that, hence they value the women they choose for more than just sex. And it's not that he necessarily can't get some of this without her, it's that he wants and expects her to provide more value than just sex and he's able to find a high value women who does provide more value than just sex because he himself is high value.

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Guys don't need to respect their partner to love them

I have read MANY /r/relationships post this week. Some where women posting, some were men posting. Today I read a post about how an engaged couple was visiting the woman's family on Christmas. The guy displayed an utter disrespect for his woman and her family by the manner in which he treated her family and how he was behaving at the party. She was furious. She wants to break off the engagement and I do not blame her - I would be angry too. I am a family woman, if my boyfriend does not show respect to my family he is not respecting me by proxy. I would not be with a person who does that, and I cannot love that person.

I'm not projecting, either. I just think that it's actually ludicrous to think that the things which create attraction and love somehow doesn't go both ways.

[–]Scurvemuch 1 point2 points3 points 9 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link

[–]i_have_a_semicolon1 point 9 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Nothing to do with a Mans love for a woman.

My bad, I interpretted your initial comment as, "Men respecting women does nothing for her love for him" which I disagree with. If two people don't respect eachother in the relationship there can be no love.

Respect breeds love and it does go both ways. A man who doesn't respect his woman could for instance do something like cheat on her (because of an inherent disrespect for her). Cheating is a relationship and love killer. What is the proper reaction to the temptation to cheat? If you love her - you don't cheat but you find the root issue that is causing the desire to cheat and address it either alone or with her if she has something to do with it (i.e. she is not being sexual enough or she gained weight, etc). If you don't love her, then you need to find out why - did you ever love her? Did you fall out of love? etc. If you truly don't or can no longer love her and you respect her, you would leave. But in any case, the lack of respect for her as a human and consideration of her feelings will underpin the infidelity.

[–]Scurvemuch1 point 9 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]i_have_a_semicolon2 points 9 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

A guy CAN cheat and love his woman.

I did not say that he couldn't, If you read my post carefully i actually said that he can cheat and love his woman if he does not respect her.

If he does respect her, he would speak with her about his root cause of the feeling to need to stray. If he is cheating because he feels disrespected, he should tackle the root issue if he really truly respects his wife (while also simultaneously being disrespected which I find to be unlikely - its hard to respect someone when you are disrespected. Without respect there cannot be "true" love)

Fastest way to make a man feel disrespected in a relationship ? Don't sleep with him. Want to add more ? Don't show your desire for him physically and then tell him you respect him.

Right. The root issue is this disrespect women have for men is part of the blue pill / feminist conditioning. A "red pill" conditioning for women could show them the need to have respect for her man, and more importantly, concrete ways to show her respect and admiration for her man. However I personally think the easiest thing to do is ask him how he feels, and that outside sources of advice (do this or that more) are general and a woman needs to figure out what her mans needs and wants are and cater to them.

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At first I thought you meant "presentation" in terms of the way people look or present themselves like in the "first impressions" kind of presentation.

Is what you really mean that it is how the posts and things are written about in TRP? If so, I agree and I feel that the problem with it is the way that hateful words are used to describe women and interactions with them. That kind of thing doesn't bother me per se as I let that kind of thing go in one ear and out the other but I think it bothers a lot of people.

I also feel like if guys want to just "pump and dump" (just a lovely phrase) then that's fine as long as they don't imply that they are in it for anything more. I feel like it is totally on us to figure out what the guy is up to.

I agree that nobody is "special" just because they are female but I think it's the "all women are basic bitches" statements that are the problem. But I feel like those phrases and that kind of language is used because it is needed for some guys because they have to cut the obstacle down to size so they can handle it. I don't mean for you to infer from that I think we are superior to men in anyway, just that many guys are a work in progress when it comes to figuring out how to get women to have sex with them.

Or, have I totally missed the point? lolol

[–]LewisCross 2 points3 points4 points 9 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]IamTheWalkingMenu3 points 9 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]Scurvemuch 0 points1 point2 points 9 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

you got most of it.

"presentation matters" is kind of like getting a gift. Its all wrapped up pretty, makes it seem nice. If the same gift was just kind of thrown at you... not so nice.

guys want to pump and dump, imo, mostly because most women ( at a given time in their lives) are not really relationship material for most guys at a given time in their lives.

As far as

I also feel like if guys want to just "pump and dump" (just a lovely phrase) then that's fine as long as they don't imply that they are in it for anything more.

I feel like it is totally on us to figure out what the guy is up to.

You are right. However, to say that its ok as long guys aren't implying anything else... Meh. its up to you to be attractive enough as a woman ( and I do not just mean physically) to be worth more. Just like its a guys job to be worth having any given woman's affection.

"all women are basic bitches"

enough women are just that to make this statement work for most guys. They will figure out if they ran into a non basic bitch, that is on the guys.

[–]sublimemongrelBecky, Esq.2 points3 points4 points 9 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

However, to say that its ok as long guys aren't implying anything else... Meh. its up to you to be attractive enough as a woman ( and I do not just mean physically) to be worth more. Just like its a guys job to be worth having any given woman's affection.

That's fine but she's talking about intentional deception. Many men are not pumping and dumping because "she wasn't worth more," it's because they were just looking to get laid and thus weren't even interested in giving her a chance. It would be like me saying "I just want a free meal so I go out on all these dates with men I'm not really interested in but it's on them because they didn't make themselves attractive enough to me." Sure, you can look at it from that angle but your'e purposely eliminating any responsibility for someone who is intentionally deceitful.

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It doesn't matter because he said it to you.

That doesn't make a difference. I know my relationship very well. He is honest with me, 100%. He doesn't hold back a damn thing. We've been doing this for awhile now. There's no reason for him to lie (i.e. I dont give him any incentive to lie to me by reacting poorly when he tells me something I don't like to hear). There is an incentive not to lie and to be transparent because it brings us closer together.

And if she snaps that's her problem. There are other ways to communicate.

Don't you think you would also react emotionally if someone who supposedly should "love" and "Respect" you patronizes and condescends you?

"Don't act like one" is the appropriate verbal response

People are allowed to have emotions, but acting like a child is something that is up to the observer's perception. You can accept that others have emotions and can behave irrationally (as they are humans) without treating them like "children".

I'll flip the script. My boyfriend has these excessive emotional reactions when his sports team has a really bad game, or when a match goes really poorly. At first I treated him "like a child" when this happened, because I felt it was childish behaviour. This only made it worse for us. Now I learned that it's not "childish" or "immature" because that will likely never change about him. That's a stimuli and thats how he reacts to it. Now I know how to handle the situation appropriately, and it's not to view him as a child who can't hold his emotions in and not throw a "temper tantrum", but as an adult who feels strongly about something to the point where he has to release that emotion. And having emotions/releasing emotions/reacting isnt "childish", it's "human", but there's a place and time for those things and also those emotional reactions could be pulled apart and dissected and understood and improved over time, not just chalk it up to being "inherently irrational".

The right thing to do is let people cool down and reconvene when the emotion has passed on. When people are rational and in the right state of mind, they will be able to communicate and figure out how to work on those reactions so they are not so destructive in the future. If you view your partner as a child, you don't even bother to do this, you don't think they're even capable of having a human adult discussion and to be introspective...blegh!

[–]Scurvemuch 0 points1 point2 points 9 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

[–]i_have_a_semicolonPurple Pill Woman1 point2 points3 points 9 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

No, I don't get your point yet.

You mistake a guy telling himself "she can't help it" for outward display of DISrespect.

She cant help it doesn't mean she is "childish". Likewise, he cannot help when he is being irrational/emotional either. All people - men and women alike - would benefit from accepting our inherent emotional and irrational natures. Women aren't inherently irrational and men are not inherently rational. Many men in the RP world cannot seem to grasp this. they extrapolate that a woman's defacto behaviour will be irrational/emotional and getting them to be rational or to understand logic is a fool's errand. They extrapolate that since they are a man, they do not need to be introspective of their own emotions and irrationality, and blindly believe many irrational/emotional things without asking themselves if it is that way (since "men" are different from women, women = irrational, men = rational). Really it is disturbing to see some people take it this way!

and the fact that YOU can't view your partner as childish in some things without thinking that they're capable of having a human adult discussion is YOUR issue. It doesn't mean it's anyone else's. Get it ?

I'm not saying this. I am saying that, I thought his reactions/emotions were childish at first. But I realized that emotions aren't "childish" - they are what they are and they are inherent in all people. Viewing him in the light that he is a child is not a productive thing to do. Rather, it is important that each person view each other as adults and hold them in high esteem.

Now, being able to have "adult discussions" is a skill that is practiced over time. A 19 year old would have a hard time, but with repeated attempts to do it, they will learn. This is why one of the best relationship advice I heard is, "Get good at fighting", which means don't seek to WIN every fight, but rather, learn how to have a productive fight that doesn't leave both people feeling shitty. Again, this all goes both ways...

[–]Scurvemuch 0 points1 point2 points 9 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]i_have_a_semicolon1 point 9 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

that helped you. good.

It doesn't just help me. It's generally good advice. View your partner in high esteem. It's tried and true good advice. If you view your partner in high esteem as a good person, you respect them and treat them with respect.

"she's just being a woman" and "oldest teenage in the house" shows no respect. You are not holding the other person in high esteem with this line of thinking. Maybe it gets them results in the moment, but over time it will whittle away at the relationship. A relationship where a man cannot/does not respect his woman as an adult, i.e. viewing her as a child or a teenage and/or treating her like one, she will likely become resentful of this treatment.

if this bothers you, thats fine. It doesn't have to make you feel good.

It doesn't "bother" me in the sense that "I dont like what I am hearing". It doesn't sit well with what I know to be good advice for relationships. It's at complete odds with having "respect" for eachother and viewing each other in high esteem and trusting that you can have honest and open communications with your partner. It goes against all of those.

It is not a "healthy" way to have a relationship. If you've decided to be with someone who is clearly unhealthy, taking those actions could have a very similar benefit than just having the internal dialogue of "he/she is just being human".

Those type of advice would create a wedge between people in a "healthy" relationship.

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I can see how some people see it as "different" because instead of computers we are discussing people, but I'll admit as far as processing info goes, I don't see it any differently at all. It is info to be processed and evaluated on usefulness, that's all.

Now pushing through LMR is one of those RP things I take issue with, but that's my personal decision. I'm mostly of the mind that any indication a woman isn't interested is more than enough to move on, but I'm looking for quality over quantity. A guy looking for quantity may want to make the best of every chance he has, while I'm willing to pass on opportunities that aren't ideal. Kino escalation is an odd one. I can see how it can get very creepy quickly, but at the same time it showed me how important touch is during courtship, and I know that sounds stupid to you. I do NOT make a habit of touching people I don't know well. Period. That includes things like a clap on the back, a hug, pretty much everything short of a handshake is reserved ONLY for people I already know. I'm sure you can see how this becomes an issue during early dating, and I had to realize that "some" amount of kino is not only expected, but necessary to move things along. I lucked out in the past because most of my LTR mates broke the "touch barrier" early on with me, which is to say I did NOT make the "first move" with any of them in the past. (if the "first move" is escalation to sex.) I was under the impression she would somehow "show me" when it was time to escalate, and whatever IOIs they sent I didn't get. I digress...

Anyway I don't disagree with your critiques necessarily, but I will say they often appear to be cherry picked from the worst of the worst on TRP. There is middle ground where I suspect many red leaning men exist, but you aren't going to find much evidence of that on TRP or the 'sphere. Their "job" is to push the extreme PoV, and let individual men find their own balance. Its not RP's fault many men can't find balance at all.

[–]disposable_pants1 point2 points3 points 9 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]IamTheWalkingMenu2 points 9 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]AutoModeratorBiased against humans[M] 0 points1 point2 points 9 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]HigHog0 points1 point2 points 9 years ago* (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]Scurvemuch -1 points0 points1 point 9 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]GuitarsAreGettingOld 0 points1 point2 points 9 years ago (15 children) | Copy Link

[–]SkinnySweaty 1 point2 points3 points 9 years ago (14 children) | Copy Link

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[–]DrunkGirl69Manic Pixie Drunk Girl1 point2 points3 points 9 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

[–]GuitarsAreGettingOld 0 points1 point2 points 9 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

Oh believe me. Only three years ago things were different.

I think we still see the remnants. Casual sex if it "just happens" is good. But if you try to come up with a strategy people will immediately be suspicious.

But so much has changed. Stuff that is considered "common knowledge" wasn't back then.

I mentioned it somewhere else but people even tried to convince us that men can as easily get casual sex as women and even used studies trying to prove it. (Lol). Like "a man and a woman go out to hit the bar and both have the exact same chance of success." If the man has no success it was because he was a misogynist. XD

No bp man or woman would try to tell us something like that any more. Now they make more sense and point out that yes women can find casual sex more easily but that doesnt mean that it will be enjoyable. True! But only a few years ago we didn't even come to this point in a discussion because people were insisting that men can get casual sex easily.

[–]DrunkGirl69Manic Pixie Drunk Girl1 point2 points3 points 9 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]GuitarsAreGettingOld 0 points1 point2 points 9 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]SkinnySweaty 0 points1 point2 points 9 years ago (6 children) | Copy Link

[–]Scurvemuch 1 point2 points3 points 9 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link

[–]SkinnySweaty 0 points1 point2 points 9 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

[–]Scurvemuch 0 points1 point2 points 9 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

[–]SkinnySweaty 0 points1 point2 points 9 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

[–]Scurvemuch1 point 9 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]SkinnySweaty1 point 9 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]MorpheusGodOfDreamsCaught Red Handed0 points1 point2 points 9 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

I find that once we have our definitions lined up

this is clearly the main issue of fluid and imprecise female language, which is useful for avoiding conflict but useless for getting things done. This is why TRP teaches to ignore what a woman says, since her imprecise language makes her words effectively useless.

In the same way that we can easily find a religious parallel to feminist dogmatic language, we can find a BP way to describe RP principles.

Surprise! when we use bullshit soft feminine language to explain concepts like hypergamy as "quality" or "standards" or AF/BB as "lover/provider", EVERYONE AGREES.

Even on this very page you will see how Bloopers constantly walk back and change the goalposts. First they say TRP is nothing but obvious health advice. Then they agree to basic concepts and say "duh! you autists didn't know that? HAHA"

If you believe that men and women are different, then you are automatically 50% RED. If you follow the natural logical conclusion to that absolute FACT, then you are solidly Red Pill, even if you disagree with some of the presentation of concepts.

But the very point of TRP is to use the harshest language possible to break the spell of the "Women are Wonderful" effect. By destroying the pedestal, TRP gives men a better chance of getting past the anger and reaching the understanding of men and women as a balanced symbiosis, like Yin and Yang.

Bloopers do all they can to stop TRP from helping these men who need it, based on the idea that they are abusing women. But if women have agency, they can easily choose to avoid a RP man. They never do avoid the most dangerous self centered men, so it really comes down to "is it natural."

Bloopers are just telling men "know your place, you sexless orbiter", even while agreeing with 95% of the basic concepts. The other 5% just goes against their feminist brainwashing, and is otherwise considered common sense around the world.

Title	Presentation Matters / discussion
Author	Scurvemuch
Upvotes	8
Comments	213
Date	December 27, 2016 3:34 PM UTC (9 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/PurplePillDebate
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/PurplePillDebate/comments/5kk92g/presentation_matters_discussion/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/PurplePillDebate/presentation-matters-discussion.271014 https://theredarchive.com/post/271014

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