TRP Culture

redpill_disciple · 2016-12-06T05:52:22+00:00

I completely agree with your post. I keep seeing postings that espouse arguments that are not found in concrete TRP literature yet are instantly upvoted because they fit the angry and loud narrative. I can't help but laugh when I see even endorsed contributors post ramblings without coherent structure and a core thesis yet are swallowed like TRP truth by members.

If anyone really wants to understand TRP I suggest looking at the suggested readings u/AsianAway posted two years ago and then formulate your own narrative. Taking whatever is said on the main sub at face value can lead you astray unless you grasp the core concepts.

Entropy-7 · 2016-12-06T07:47:26+00:00

TRP doesn't do nuance well. Actually: people don't do nuance well and for the masses it is more instructive to give a general rule to follow rather than trying to explain all the complexities of the situation to people who won't get it. Conservatives and liberals get into this all the time. Cons favour clear rules to keep you out of trouble like no sex before marriage. Liberals have an unfounded faith in stupid people to make smart decisions and so they want condoms in high school washrooms and kids (half of whom have double-digit IQs) to figure things out for themselves.

Of course, TRP "truths" are not iron clad but if they explain more than 30%, they beat the vast majority of peer-reviewed sociological studies; and if they explain more than 50%, then they are your best bet. I tend to think it is more like 70% but that is one man's opinion with a mere 30 years experience.

Maybe we need a new flair for anger phasers. I am tired of reading bloopers who cite these guys as being the main stream of thought here.

Keep in mind that outsiders don't understand us no matter how we could reinvent ourselves or explain ourselves in any rational and logical manner.

Pastelitomaracucho · 2016-12-06T06:58:59+00:00

Yep. 90% of this place is angry venting, double standards and confirmation bias.

Which is fine. Trp is pure Sexual strategy but this sub is also an open forum where people can come and say what they want. This means that the general quality of the posts is not that high, but we are all open to criticism and we can self regulate the quality of the sub to some extent.

Frenetic_Zetetic · 2016-12-06T10:09:50+00:00

This is unfortunate because it suppresses the level of subtlety that is necessary to capture the essence of real world situations.

This. This times all the this-es. Great post OP.

disposable_pants · 2016-12-06T10:05:05+00:00

A lot of people resort to flaky reasoning grounded in evolutionary psychological concepts that they clearly don't understand.

Completely agree. And there's really no reason to use shaky evo psych reasoning when just about any idea on TRP can be reasonably supported by behavioral economics (i.e. social incentives drive how men and women act).

The culture of TRP is quite "binary", wherein ideas are either embraced 100% as the golden truth, or viciously denigrated and stamped as "Blue Pill".

Eh, I see a solid number of nuanced posts/comments as it is. The binary thinking that does exist here is mostly an inevitable mirroring of the absolutist language of safety -- always do X, never do Y, and you'll go home with all of your fingers. If you want to keep people from accidentally shooting somebody you don't go into a bunch of possible scenarios where pointing the muzzle at someone might or might not be acceptable; you tell them that all guns are loaded and they should never point the muzzle at something they aren't willing to destroy. Similarly, if you want to keep men from winding up financially, emotionally, or legally damaged you offer equally binary advice.

Their frustrated venting falls upon the sympathetic ears of others whom have equally terrible experiences. This type of emotional environment clouds good judgement.

I a largely agree, but venting does have at least some value. First, there aren't that many places where guys can get stuff like that off their shoulders, and doing so is often cathartic. Second, it reminds guys who might become complacent that they need to keep sharp. It should be reduced, but not eliminated.

Quality post. Self-reflection is positive.

Eric216 · 2016-12-06T06:46:33+00:00

I don't think you're wrong, but the "binary" nature of TRP is quite helpful in providing a simple framework for a lot of men that didn't have red pill fathers and didn't study evolutionary biology at university. Hell, a member of my family was a psychologist for 30 years, and he was the furthest thing from red pill.

Similarly, I've heard people, especially psychologists, criticize Myers Briggs as being overly simplistic (slippery slope where confirmation bias takes over). And yet, I've been subjected to Myers Briggs testing several times (military, gov't contractor, corporate executive) and I find it very helpful for understanding myself and teammates/colleagues. I don't believe it contains all the answers, but it is quite helpful.

Fact is, guys that understand a few simple concepts like hypergamy, AWALT, AA, IDGAF, etc., are way ahead of their peers in the world. We live in a world where political correctness prevents even elite educators from seeing these "truths" about interactions between men and women.

Sometimes the KISS (Keep It Simple Stupid) principle just works.

darkstout · 2016-12-06T05:56:53+00:00

People want quick fixes. They don't want to spend years reading and studying evolutionary psychology. They want ANSWERS... like go lift, stop being a beta bitch, spin plates, AWALT, make money, etc. If this is "binary" then so be it. And yes, we are emotional, we've lived with a false conscious, spoon fed lies from everyone on what women want and how to be a man. I'd rather see passion than cold academic logic that doesn't inspire.

reganstar1874 · 2016-12-06T07:25:48+00:00

we should all read every Dawkins book

XDVI · 2016-12-06T07:33:34+00:00

C'mon man you didn't even get into the whole ALPHA this and ALPHA that. DUDE LAST NIGHT I WAS SO ALPHA

Elodrian · 2016-12-06T11:48:26+00:00

I had a discussion relating to this subject a couple days ago in a different sub. I'll piece it together here.

MetaCanada quick poll- Your thoughts on the MRM/TRP/MGTOW?

...TRP advocates a degenerate lifestyle but their philosophy about attaining that lifestyle is fundamentally sound.

How/why is TRP a degenerate movement?

I prefer to ground my ethics more rigorously in game theory using the concept of a stable equilibrium or evolutionarily stable state but lets look at it from a deontological perspective a la Kant's categorical imperative (Act only according to that maxim whereby you can, at the same time, will that it should become a universal law). What would happen to western civilization if every man adopted the values and methodology espoused by TRP? In short order you would have plummeting birth rates, a female population totally unable to pair bond, and general societal collapse. It's a philosophy that can only exist by exploiting a generally healthy society. It's parasitic as, practiced as preached, it produces no future citizens while reducing the capacity of women (divorce rates rise in proportion to a woman's n-count prior to marriage) to live in stable marriages, the optimal social configuration for creating and rearing children. That's the main reason I call the philosophy "degenerate"; it is anti-civilization. The other reason is the nihilistic undertone.

The nihilism of the movement is on display with the motto of "enjoy the decline". It has a defeatist colour to it in that they justify their hedonism with the assumption that civilization is doomed anyway so you may as well have fun while you can. The possibility that, were millenial men to begin taking responsibility for Western civilization, the decline could be averted is dismissed in favour of a lifestyle that actively hastens social decline.

I see, but you assume that if every man adopted the values of TRP it would just continue in perpetuity, but I don't think that's accurate. If all men adopted TRP, in reality society would change over time and there would eventually be an adjustment.

TRP is a response to modern women/feminism. If every man adopted TRP lifestyles, then over time women would change the way they behave. Add that with simple changes in the legal system so that men are actually treated equitably, then you'd see something closer to 1950s (or earlier) style of mating and pairing which would then make men more interested in marriage again. There would no longer be a need for TRP.

TRP is just a reaction. The slogan you mention "enjoy the decline" is referencing the decline of Western Civilization due modern 'feminism'. If every man adopted TRP like you said, then the decline would cease because the fundamental flaw of feminism is that it only works if men choose to go along with it. In the state of nature, feminism cannot exist.

TRP doesn't advocate for all men to adopt the philosophy as a general strike to effect social change. The thought experiment about TRP as a categorical imperative is to illustrate that the lifestyle is unsustainable on the macro scale and therefore unethical on the micro scale. Consider an analogy:

Six nations border a sea with a population of fish. If all six nations enforce a sustainable fish harvest, the resource is a renewable one. If one nations assumes that everyone else is going to overfish the resource, then it follows that they should adopt a policy of overfishing. Seeing that the social contract is broken, the other five nationa follow suit. The end result Is that the shared resource is destroyed for everyone and it only made sense in the first place if one group accepted the nihilistic premise that decline in fish stocks was inevitable and therefore proper husbandry of the resource was pointless.

This is the TRP mindset. Decline is inevitable, therefore we have no responsibility to make things better so we might as well make things worse because it's fun. Even if one accepts the nihilistic inevitability of decline, it doesn't follow that this translates to a license to become part of the problem. Doing so is anti-civilizational; which to me is synonymous with degeneracy. You don't have to be part of the solution, but at a bare minimum: do no harm.

That's as far as the discussion went. I stand by my arguments and assertions.

JihadDerp · 2016-12-06T12:33:07+00:00

This is a great, thoughtful, well grounded post, and it is much needed. It's 100% accurate.

However, the best way to sway minds is through emotion, and the best way to stir emotion is through the things you described.

Therefore I think both what you describe and sober posts like yours are necessary to TRP. They complement each other.

Koalasonfire · 2016-12-06T12:46:41+00:00

The problem with this place is that there are a lot of users that take every post, at first glance, as gospel. They just equate it being posted to TRP with being 100% fact, when in reality the post might be completely retarded.

I might make a post about not reading TRP. I think there's a point where all the things posted here is just stuff you've read before, or stupid shit, and it's best not to constantly visit unless YOU have some wisdom to impart.

I should know, I used to visit a couple times a day and just read any jackass post like it was the bible. But I realized some time ago that isn't too smart of me. I now visit every once in a while to check on some top posts, there's good stuff now and then but not always stuff I haven't seen before. Good post example would be the 300lb guy's post on frontpage yesterday.

GayLubeOil · 2016-12-06T07:55:56+00:00

It's really easy to unzip your pants and start waving your cock because things don't conform to what you learned at your libcuck university. Hurr durr this argument doesn't conform to the logical format that I was taught in my anthropology class. I need to see some sources!

Here is something to consider. The Red Pill is written predominantly by and for young men. Its not a research paper and it's not going to be graded by your African Transgender Studies Professor. The purpose of Red Pill is to be Interesting and spark discussion. However it is up to you to do your own research and decide for yourself what ideas you choose to accept.

People enjoy emotive rhetorical pieces much more than logical dissertations. Which is why the former is superior to the latter for convaying information. However if you personally don't feel that way no one is stopping you from submitting logical snorepieces.

2dogsandpizza · 2016-12-06T10:46:00+00:00

Concern trolling and tone policing. Also been here 2 months and thinks he is a wise rp man now. Mods get in here.

TyrannyVengeance · 2016-12-06T09:42:16+00:00

All misandry is the worst kind of misandry your misunderstanding of that fact in point number three is why point number 2 exists in your mind.

Truth be told though we actually do have just as many subtleties as the real world. I call them shit posts. But damn if our basement dwellers don't upvote the fuck out of them.

asymptotic_salvation · 2016-12-06T12:12:20+00:00

Since I only stumbled across TRP about two months ago, I haven't yet read all of the recommended literature.

You've outlined (and partially demonstrated) the underlying problem in one of your own comments.

TRP is a (loosely) free market of ideas. Ignoring the great work done by the moderators, people are free to post their hypotheses, analyses, and opinions -- all with varying degrees of quality and insight -- and just like a free market economy the quality of the products is regulated by the consumer.

The quality of posts and the ability of the community to regulate this quality are both generally proportional to the individuals' understanding of TRP theory (ie how much of the literature they've read).

Now this is where the problem lies.

I also understand that this sub has grown dramatically over the past few years, so that probably has something to do with it.

The bigger the community grows and the less people read the sidebar, the more the quality of posts declines.

This is why I personally recommend people avoid reading the forum until they've digested most of the reading material; not only because it will enable them to contribute with a greater degree of quality when they do enter the forum, but also because it will make their own use of the forum more productive -- now that they can regulate what they read more effectively.

Stythe · 2016-12-06T12:26:17+00:00

This is true and generally the case with any group of people with a certain set if circumstances or beliefs. There's a cult-like aspect to it. It's not really the fault of anyone but the people following and the only way around it is if thr people are self ware enough to avoid it. Most people don't want to think, they want to be told. This is true everywhere. Take what you want from TRP but don't think everything is gospel.

JackGetsIt · 2016-12-06T12:55:12+00:00

Keep in mind that in male communities you need to 'earn' your right to critique.

I don't think you've spent enough time on this sub. I've read posts that directly cite the literature you mention, granted they are not as upvoted or extolled as more rhetorical posts.

Writers that can wrap up the scientific literature in a palpable way for the masses of RP users get upvoted to the moon.

Sounds like you have some of that background. Why don't you contribute your expertise and do some quality writing for the sub instead of 'critiquing.'

JamesSkepp · 2016-12-06T13:18:32+00:00

This should be in the sidebar.

mojoback · 2016-12-06T13:35:32+00:00

[deleted]
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^0.4739

What is this?

YoussarianAscended · 2016-12-06T14:05:17+00:00

Certainly, as the size of this sub increased, the quality of the posts have decreased. This pretty much happens with any community - as it gets larger, the core message gets diluted and distorted by the masses.

This happens even more strongly when the masses don't read the core material for the ideology. In this case, it's the sidebar material. It's also some of the major blogs for the Red Pill: Return of Kings, Illimitible Men, The Rational Male, etc.

I don't spend as much time on here as I used to because honestly, I've learned the core material. It's turning into a bunch of re-hashes.

To re-iterate things said by /u/GayLubeOil and many others, you need to think about what's said here, see what seems most true to you. You also need to apply it to your life. A practical understanding of something is far more powerful than just a theoretical understanding.

BluestBlackBalls · 2016-12-06T14:54:08+00:00

Sounds like you find individuals in the Anger Phase grating.

SirGaetanDugas · 2016-12-06T12:30:34+00:00

You are tiptoeing the line of concern trolling.

Why not create the content you wish to see? Lead by example as criticism wont change a thing

moontripper1246 · 2016-12-06T04:56:45+00:00

True. I'm curious of your opinion. What do you think of the rule "leave them better than you found them" and the existence (and effectiveness) of dark triad tactics.

88Will88 · 2016-12-06T09:20:45+00:00

TRP is a tool kit, not a cult. It uses generalisations and bro talk to get points across. I think TRP will evolve into something more subtle in due course but for now it remains a toolkit for sexual strategy, a place where angry guys can vent and swap stories, and an aggressive backlash to the stupidity of feminism. For now I am quite happy with TRP the way it is and I do not think we need to go all peer review paper level on our posts just yet.

gjs628 · 2016-12-06T11:18:42+00:00

I can at least say that TRP doesn't claim to be the be-all and end-all of everything. It boils down complex ideas to core principles and the only way for it to develop is by a number of people throwing ideas into the pot. Some are great and are adopted, others are BS and are discarded. This is the only way for the "philosophy" to grow.

Plus, not everything will apply to everyone. Spinning plates won't apply to married guys (well, unless your wife is a complete bitch...) and not every woman is identical in every aspect.

I came here because my other half cheated on me before we were married and I honestly could not reconcile cheating with a healthy marriage inside my own head, I was an absolute mess. She has dedicated herself to being the best wife possible ever since and I truly believe that she's a good woman. That doesn't mean she's incapable of doing it again. I was a textbook beta putting her on a pedestal and I lost out to Alpha Al but in the process, was broken and remade into a DGAF hardass. Took up Krav Maga and got to instructor level. I mean seriously, if you're threatened in the street by some thug and you "be the bigger man and walk away", she says she'll respect you - she won't. Real men don't walk away. They don't fight. They swiftly destroy their opposition and move forward. Otherwise why should she expect you to protect her when the badass in your face could do it better?

SirByron · 2016-12-06T14:15:06+00:00

What this sub completely fails to understand and appreciate that Women also follow the Laws of Nature. There laws are not "logical" as the Minds of Minds think they should be, a lower level of simplistic cause and effect. Women and Men represent Yin and Yang, and both are incomplete without each other.

1) Getting Kills Wanting. The more easily you get something the less you want it. The most precious things like good food, a vacation, would rank very high if you were not able to get them so easily. The same with women, if you were able to get them with relative ease, romance wouldn't be mysterious and precious like it should be.

The Look by Sara Teasdale Stephen kissed me in the spring, Robin in the fall, But Colin only looked at me And never kissed at all. Stephen's kiss was lost in jest, Robin's lost in play, But the kiss in Colin's eyes Haunts me night and day.

2) The mystery of life is its unknowability - if you were able to get a woman with a few series of skills or methods or even by being someone, romance and love would be predictable. Instead life is eternally magical and worth living because we never run out of challenge, we can never fully discover ourselves and this journey is worth it till 80-90 years of life.

The Magic Never Ends.

3) Yin and Yang are united at a higher level of consciousness. When you try to reconcile men's rational nature with women's irrational whimsicality for a long enough time and are not able to relinquish either, your consciousness expands to realize there is a higher level of "superconsciousness" where opposites can co-exist as different manifestations of the same force. Anger and Sadness is the same thing. Love and Hate is is the same thing. Happiness and Misery is is the same thing.

Class_Punk · 2016-12-06T15:08:11+00:00

You actually described the bulk of MGTOW, on youtube and other places, as well.

I distanced myself from MGTOW some time ago by referring it to a culture rather than a community as the infighting got worse and worse. I knew about MGTOW ideas, some evo psych, gendered psychological differences, old school and red pill PUA, and Rollo Tommassi's ideas. I went on my own to look into theories on Red Pill Women, the work of Sue Johnson, Laura Doyle, Gary Chapman (The 5 Love Languages), and now more recently the books NO MORE MR. NICE GUY, and the book MODELS which I'm reading right now. I have learned to study human beings on my own, apply evidence and logical fallacy avoiding thinking (rational thinking), and let no individual or group override that rational thinking with logical fallacies or poor probability arguments.

I feel alone. I find people with truths, but I never find truthseekers. The people calling themselves truthseekers always hit a snag based on past trauma, and then I feel like I surpass them in some way, and my intellectual loneliness continues to grow. Though that's not to say that my past isn't manipulating me as well, I'm well aware of it and regularly examine it for how it might be affecting me. Honestly I'm optimistic though because I think male self-development hasn't been streamlined yet, inclusive of making relationships work with women without trying to run "game" or be someone you aren't; I see that streamlining happening in the future as a byproduct of a greater understanding of human beings, which is the bigger goal that will cause the most fulfillment in society.

People in MGTOW, PUA, Red Pill circles care too much about evolutionary psychology/gendered differences and what that means for self improvement and relationships. For me, fleshing out attachment theory, and what human attachment and perception means for the formation of a personality, is the holy grail.

Certifiedfamilylaw · 2016-12-06T07:58:12+00:00

This post reads like a college student high on adderall who doesn't want to study

WasteofaScreenName · 2016-12-06T08:57:01+00:00

"(and psychology which is also quite complex)."

This is where you lost my respect. Psychology isn't complex. It is actually very, VERY simple, and anything complex about it - is simply made up circle jerking. The entire field of psychology could be contained in a one chapter book. Everything else is just circle jerking. It shouldn't have ever gotten any more respect that phrenology.

TheInkerman · 2016-12-06T08:57:43+00:00

Part of the 'binary' nature of TRP I think because it is so fiercely resisted and criticised. Every single tenet has to be fought and pushed for because it not only goes against the mainstream, it is actively suppressed by it. You're right this doesn't leave much room for nuance or theoretical debates, but to some extent TRP doesn't have that luxury. If it was widely accepted, sure, maybe that subtlety can occur, but it isn't, so it can't be. From an academic standpoint this is bad, you're correct, but we don't have time for academics because so many men are too busy drowning.

As for the broader critiques of accuracy, I ignore (and recommend others do so) any 'Red Pill' approach to international relations or higher level politics. As someone who is an expert in the area, TRP's take on IR theory and international relations is literally laughable. It varies from those whose only goal in life is for Putin to let them have his babies, and a bunch of 'roided up half-wit 'realists'. But then again, if TRP is wandering into IR debates something's gone wrong and you should turn back.

perfidiousfish · 2016-12-06T12:41:57+00:00

This smells very strongly of concern trolling, or at the very least someone choking on the pill.

Take point 2 for example - TRP is deliberately binary. When we say AWALT, we don't mean they're literally all exactly the same, we mean that they have the same basic programming, and to treat them as such. A great analogy someone made on here is that "all guns are loaded". They're obviously not, but you treat them as if they are as a basic precaution.

BareFistEmpiricist · 2016-12-06T14:17:32+00:00

We aren't here to spoon-feed you everything you faggot, read the theories test them out yourself. Nobody is forcibly brainwashing you here, unlike your precious school system.

sqerl · 2016-12-06T12:20:13+00:00

.1.

What's the point here?
Use search and most likely there's an in depth TRP-post about nearly every topic. Working knowledge is sufficient to make a point.

.2.

The core of TRP is in the side bar. Practically every facet has its own dedicated thread. Responses in those threads and most new posts are nuances of the core concepts.

.3.

Whats the point here? The anger phase is real. Guys have this space to vent, see their emotions in words, and receive feedback on how to work through it. Some guys have experienced the worst misandry and emotional turmoil. It's devastating. But, guys that have survived are helping the new guys either are in it or never experienced it. The beauty is that reality is ugly and therein lies its beauty.

These are my criticisms...

Thanks. If you haven't read the sidebar, please do so.

Here's an interesting perspective I believe:

1 - new guy shows up at TRP
2 - new guy glances over front page
3 - new guy cherry picks posts and topics which fit cognitive bias
4 - new guy feels empowered to save the world (TRP)
5 - new guy makes post criticizing TRP
6 - new guy gets offended when senior TRP members point out fallacies
7 - new guy gets offended
8 - frustrated new guy finally reads side bar
9 - frustrated new guy becomes enlightened dude
10 - enlightened dude brings nuanced view points back to main forum to help others
11 - new guy shows up at TRP...

Pattern recognition FTW

Hillarysdilddo_2016 · 2016-12-06T14:00:15+00:00

Since I only stumbled across TRP about two months ago, I haven't yet read all of the recommended literature. Perhaps my observations are biased in that they're based on more recent trends in the quality and subject matter of the discussions.

Been on TRP two months, hasn't read required reading, but has shit to say. Sounds legit.

You know what, this post has been interesting to watch unfold into a lengthy conversation, but I honestly didn't put any effort into it, and it's based on ideas that I didn't spend much time thinking through.

Doesn't even think before opening his mouth, spews half-thought out, hare-brained criticisms of the sub. Sounds legit.

Yet, before one comments on pseudoscience one should defer to the nuanced knowledge of PhD's. Because, a sociology PhD really has the requisite knowledge to educate us that penis is a social construct. Or perhaps a women's/gender studies PhD can educate us on the nuances of the Patriarchy. Or perhaps a Male Jewish communist with a PhD in community organizing can educate us on Straight White Male Privilege.

You see, that is why one should reject nuance, because it is a trick used in a weak attempt to bamboozle you into believing absurd premises.

One should evaluate the truth on its merits, not on credentialism.

Credentialism is what leads to the Iraq war with perhaps 1,000,000 casualties because one subscribes to the belief that the New York Times is "reputable." That is but one example of many.

Just answer one question of "nuance", did evolution stop at the neck?

TissueDealer · 2016-12-06T09:27:29+00:00

[deleted]

What is this?

Title	TRP Culture
Author	BareFistEmpiricist
Upvotes	172
Comments	113
Date	December 6, 2016 4:34 AM UTC (9 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/TheRedPill
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/TheRedPill/comments/5gqwu3/trp_culture/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/TheRedPill/trp-culture.65101 https://theredarchive.com/post/65101

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