When She Talks About Other Men

practicepricipleprep · 2017-10-23T02:40:00+00:00

I have a slightly different perspective on this:

The few times this has occurred, the best response has always been to Agree & Amplify. She will be stunned by you saying: "He really is great. Look at his height and physique. You know what, you should go talk to him. Better yet, let me introduce you two".

Then, go attempt to meet the guy and actually try to bring him over. Before you can even get out of your seat, she will usually grab your arm and say "wait, what are you doing, I was only kidding." (Her test exposed)

By responding in this manner, you show the ULTIMATE outcome independence and pre-selection. Her hamster will spin wondering why you were so carefree and did NOT get offended by her comments. She will think "Why was he so quick to try to pair me off with someone else? Does he have other girls on the side?"

FireDrillem · 2017-10-23T04:05:23+00:00

Easy win in this case. Agree & Amplify and then point out and comment on the hot females too. If she's blonde notice the brunettes, if she's thin point out the thick juicy ones and so on. Get social and give off the swinger or threesome vibe. Observe hamster go into overdrive.

blackierobinsun3 · 2017-10-23T08:30:22+00:00

Never put yourself in a situation you can't walk out of in 30 seconds or less

3axapu · 2017-10-23T16:21:38+00:00

I don't know where you find these women. If your gf is saying shit like this you run to the hills man. That's not a shit test , that's just disrespect. To the guy's trying to 'pass' this 'test', you're delaying the inevitable.

chauncy_popperstein · 2017-10-23T02:40:28+00:00

It is a shit test. And by showing a negative emotional reaction, you are failing it.
The fact that you get jealous shows you don't have an abundance mentality. (it is also being VERY insecure)
No it isn't normal. When you are doing things right her attention is on YOU.

Want to burn that girl, If she ever says some dumb/disrespectful shit like that? (a petty thing to do)

Just show her a picture of your last conquest on your phone and say. "Yeah that guy was put together. Check out this chick, she's hot".

elvisliveshere65 · 2017-10-23T02:45:10+00:00

If this happens all the time to you. Then you have to consider the possibility that it's you.

tibikush2012 · 2017-10-23T03:21:52+00:00

It is a shit test.

My current LTR said it a couple of times. I told her either that he is not my type or agreed but always said "fine then lets go speak to him so you two can know each other".

Needless to say that after every time it happened she became more attached to me... It is a shit test to see if you really have abundence or not. If you win she knows she can lose you and if you fail, she knows you can lose her

Desadarius · 2017-10-23T02:47:03+00:00

If you don't like it, drop her.

If you can handle it, don't.

TheseNthose · 2017-10-23T12:56:20+00:00

When I was 8-10 years old my mom would do this shit to my dad infront me and my sisters. I remember sitting there like "wtf" Meanwhile my mother trained my sisters to play along. My parents got divorced a year later and my sisters are still entitled nags who try to guilt trip me because i dont want to drive to them an hour away to babysit their kids while they play around with avon oils.

JamesSkepp · 2017-10-23T08:03:39+00:00

I want to tell you that this is not in any way, shape or form, normal...For a man that has his shit together and game on.

Treat it as shit test and it will be normal. You're making a big deal out of it b/c it's an emotional issue for you. It should not be.

I'd get pissed and then get slapped with the "You're being insecure" shit.

You were. You didn't established and enforced boundaries and you didn't pass shit tests ("Listen babe, it's great that you think he's hot, I think he's hot too so much so I would bang him first, BUT I'm not here to talk about other men" then change the subject). As simple as that. If she doesn't take a hint, you next her b/c she's not that into you (lack of compliance and lack of being afraid to displease you) and you're wasting your time.

She would sit there and talk about how she'd love to be "taken" by some other man on tv or IRL.

Should have taken the hint. She basically told you what she wants you to do with her, she just put it as "I saw it on TV" b/c "she's not a girl like that".

It was also my insecurity to blame when she was caught flirting with other men

Never met a girl that didn't flirt with other men, even if lightly and briefly.

It's a slap in the face to my honor,

Which is why the men who took the "weak bullshit" advice of passing the shit test banged her and you didn't. Your HONOUR was not injured, your FEELZ were.

You expect them not to flirt with other men. Cool.

You expect them not to comment on other men being hot. Cool.

Will you also expect them not to actually THINK this guy is hot?

You got emotionally hurt over her comments. Get over stuff like this b/c if you're going to get hurt by what she says (not to mention what she does), you might as well not even approach any woman at all.

swoleoldguy · 2017-10-23T17:16:53+00:00

Just reply, "a guy like that would never fuck a girl like you."

HumanSockPuppet · 2017-10-23T13:50:30+00:00

A man will correct this woman and leave if she continues to do this

How you correct her matters.

Confronting her shit test directly is just announcing to her that it makes you insecure.

Instead, drift away from her without a word. Approach other women and run game on them (which you should be doing anyways). This will be a subconscious signal to her that you are preparing to replace her.

There's nothing that whips a woman into line faster than watching another woman giggle in your presence.

biggerbetterjobs · 2017-10-23T12:35:17+00:00

"Yeah I'd suck his dick too" If she continues with the game, get up, walk away and go chat him up and try to get his number. AMOG ya girl.

_MysticFox · 2017-10-23T06:19:24+00:00

How do you get her to cut it out?

Juannava · 2017-10-23T10:24:54+00:00

This kind of childish behavior should be stopped immediately, and the "Agree and amplify" theory is just great for this kind of situation. I've tryed it with my girlfriend a couple of times when we were just dating and those kind of events havent happend again in 3 years. So everyone who is struggling whit this shoud try this theory.

trplurker · 2017-10-23T12:31:25+00:00

All women do this shit, it's one of their ways of testing to see how attached you are. The absolute worst thing you can possibly do is complain, whine or tell them to stop, it shows a huge amount of attachment which is a big turn off. Best thing to do is, as others have said, agree and amplify by saying you'd fuck him too, or going the ultimate path and try to introduce them. The benefit of calling the dude over is that it also tests her, either she goes cold and tries to disengage with the new guy, or she's warm and flirts. If it's the former then she's loyal, if it's the later then you need to cut sling load asap.

VasiliyZaitzev · 2017-10-23T17:29:33+00:00

"Boy, I've been thinking about it, and I super want to fuck your mom. Maybe both of you together, in a threesome. That would be totes cool."

victor_knight · 2017-10-23T06:51:21+00:00

Some of the women I used to sleep with would often bring up their husband or boyfriend. I didn't mind. In fact, it kind of turned me on that I was enjoying the goods without having to pay the bill.

behindtheline40 · 2017-10-23T15:39:42+00:00

You're failing the shit test.

'Slap in the face to my honor'. Are you an insecure Muslim father?

My current mian plate pulls this all-the-time. Honestly it's constant. For example. I picked her up last night and no joke the first thing out of her mouth was telling me that the guy that she was fucking in the summer showed up to her work. (works at a bar). There was obviously no interesting story to follow suit, just needed to get that information out of there.

She also tells me how the regulars in her bar will call her a goddess and chat her up and get her number and ad her on instagram. She is absolutly desperate for me to bite or show any emotional reaction to this. But I never do.

Typcially I'll agree and amplify. Or striaght up ignore what she's saying and talk about something else completely as if I didn't hear her. This is the most effective. Shuts her down entirely. It's an easy game because I'll test her in the same way and she fails miserably. Mine are very sublte.

for example:

When we look for her panties after we bang and can't find them in the sheets or at the end of the bed. I'll slip in a 'this always happens'. It's never happened with us. also

I'm going to a different city next weekend, and will be missing halloween. This was a big deal for her as she's dressing up in lingerie and calling herself something. This was her opportunity to go out with me and have hoards of male attention & try to get me jealous. I knew this. My reaction is that I booked a weekend in Montreal and will be staying in a party hostel solo. I'd rather do that anyway because I'm checking out some grad programs. Cue hamster explosion. She wanted me to see her costume anyway so she did a 'fashion show' last night just to give me an opportunity to she how hot she'll look. We promptly banged.

ThickDickWarrior89 · 2017-10-23T17:02:08+00:00

I had an ex like that and I look back at the situation and understand why. I was a sucker back then. My current ltr has never tried some bullshit like that. Differences between the two situations: I am older now, better physique, better job and last but not least idgaf.

crush_snort_red_pill · 2017-10-23T17:22:00+00:00

This happened to me recently.

It's a shit test. The response is amused mastery. Like other commenters have said, agree and amplify. I took her home and pounded her into the mattress and made her squirt.

I just make fun of them for it. Whatever you do don't start pointing out other women, that sounds like you're weak and fighting back to hurt her for hurting you.

buddhadarko · 2017-10-23T20:03:39+00:00

I think there's a middle ground with this. If a woman is just saying she likes how a guy looks and that he's a candidate for her to possibly fuck, then Agree & Amplify does the job well here. That alone throws most women off because, innately, they are expecting you to get uncomfortable and protect her from the big strong Chad that might take her away from you. If she is flirtatious with another guy, and this could just be a cashier ringing you guys up, then you hold frame and correct her ass immediately after the incident. Let her know it's not going to continue because she's replaceable.

See, they get into this groove where they think they're the only vagina in town or that she's the best you can ever do. So, that is when you nicely remind them (and you should be doing this intermittently anyway because of basic LTR maintenance and whatnot) that they are not the only vag around and that you can indeed slip right into another pussy one as easily as she changes shoes.

Ananonguy88 · 2017-10-23T16:54:23+00:00

I had this with my latest plate that tried to get me into ltr. Maybe it was to blackmail me "relationship or no fuck zone" as you say, especially that she was an alpha widow longing after all thundercocks that went through her previously, while mine was pretty noob cock that could not satisfy her as much. I "kept frame" as you say since she was a plate for me and I never planned to invest emotionally into her, I did not even need to "keep it", just gave 0 fucks. My lack of fucks given was thing that was actually pissing her off, the more I ignored this thing, the more she tried to make me jelly. I kept it going as long as I was receiving the puss.

Once she refused me sex and gave ultimatum relationship/fuck off, I just moved on which left her even more frustrated.

I guess sometimes it's not a shit test but a comfort test to check if you give a fuck at all and if she's still desired, that's my bet so far.

CuckFuckMcPuck · 2017-10-23T17:30:58+00:00

Would she allow you to make the same type of comments? No chance in hell buddy! You'd be called rapey and sexist.

january_cutter · 2017-10-23T17:37:25+00:00

Meh, this almost never happens to me, so I don't know what the hell you're talking about.

I think it says more about the woman, than the man, in all honesty. You think it's all about you, of course, because ... well fuck knows why. Maybe you really are insecure?

Most woman who actually like the guy they are with won't openly comment on all the other men they would like to bone in front of him. It's just tacky & if she has social skills, she would know that. She's not your gay bff or your gal pal, she's your lover (I hope) -- so wtf.

I wouldn't be insecure. Again, it's not a comment on me, it's a comment on her. She's tacky. And turnabout is fair play, MOST women I'd say would be annoyed if you were oogling some piece of ass in front of her.

If it's something like Ben Affleck on the TV, yeah sure maybe who cares. Celebrity oogling is kind of different in my opinion, it's distinctly fantasy.

But yeah I would ignore it. If she's specifically trying to get a rise out of you or has crossed the line, just dump the bitch. I personally don't deal with women who try to fuck with me (or men for that matter). Meh.

I think you guys take some of this "shit test" and "hold frame" shit a bit too seriously. Most irrational human bullshit is not some planned "shit test, a test of thou manhood!" and actually seeing everything as a test makes you an insecure douche. Even if the answer is not to care, by "seeking out" the shit tests and trying to identify them, you are actually HYPER REACTIVE IN REALITY, even if you are trying to stoically hide all emotion on the outside.

It's not insecurity to prefer that your mate doesn't fuck others. It's actually powerful innate biology. But at the same time, you cannot control other people, really.

There are cases (I've seen it firsthand) where a girl is just simply a thirsty slut. And she's not that interested in monogamy with you. I've seen fiancees, wives, who are doting lovers, but then as soon as the Mr. is at home, they want to fuck E'RRBODY. That has nothing to do with the man necessarily, that's just the woman. She's a thirsty disloyal slut. Not all women are, but some are. You can't "ignore them" or "berate them" into submission. The correct answer is that if you want a loyal woman, dump her and go find one.

PantsonFire1234 · 2017-10-23T18:14:55+00:00

I've personally never had this although my relationships were short and they wouldn't have dared to in the beginning and nowadays I rarely run into a guy that blows me out of the park. Not even older guys. Some might have something I don't have, but then again so do I. I do know however that there's no way in hell i'd stick around a beta slut who verbally shares her hypergamy plans with me.

See the thing is that in almost every relationship, the guy and the girl are actually close to eachothers league. Their either close or equal in SMV or the guy is slightly higher, very rarely the girl is actually higher. So what's happening in such an instance is that this girl is making statements about her interest in guys that are out of her league. At this point the guy has to recognize he's dating a beta slut who wants to get fucked and chucked. Because there's no way in hell she'd get a relationship out of it. I'd be like a beta cuck saying he wants to bang X pornstar or Y model yet everyone knows he doesn't have an inkling of a chance. All they could be is a friendzoned provider.

And that's exactly what these girls are. They are the reverse friendzone. The female equivalent of a guy who is 'besties' with some hot chick he never gets to touch. But he's oh so proud that he can be associated with her. This girl is never gonna get the guys attention, but the very fact that he's fucking her gives her enough credence to lie to herself and claim that they 'have a fling'. But everyone knows she's just disposable fucktoy.

Never accept shitty beta behavior from your girlfriend. No matter your low or high SMV level.

PaulRocker · 2017-10-24T04:19:58+00:00

Agree & Amplify is neat but not my cup of tea

Not every girl will test you like this, some don't even know they're doing it, I honestly wouldn't even pay it any mind we all know woman aren't assertive enough to put themselves in a situation like that xD plus I do the same thing with chicks no harm in appreciating something nice

LouElmo · 2017-10-24T10:01:48+00:00

If she will do this in front of you imagine for a moment what she will do when you’re not around. The best way to win when it comes to this kind of bs is not to play. OP is saying “I’m not playing. This is not a game”. If you play it will be one constant shit test after another. There are better things to do with your time and energy. I for one have gone with the “ain’t got time for dat”position. There is no woman worth the cumulative shit tests you have to constantly be on guard for and properly respond to to keep her in check and around. You have arrived as a man when you realize that a woman is an add on not a necessity. Air, food, water, shelter=necessities. Woman=nice to have around but start your crap and adios to you. My 2cents for whatever it’s worth. Soldier on guys.

Constatine7 · 2017-10-23T07:38:11+00:00

Lol. My name is Chad and I always find it funny everyone uses "Chad" as an example here. The best thing you can do here is think like a real man. Men call people out on things, but there is a specific way real men do this. It is not out of anger but out of self respect. We must not be so sensitive that we take offense in such actions. We must have deep set confidence. But at the same time we respected ourselves and won't let such behavior go uncontested. But this is not the same thing as taking offense. This is the masculine way of things.

mishasam89 · 2017-10-23T17:07:10+00:00

You know, my sister is by far the best girl I know morally. And yet, even she pulls shit like this on her boyfriend. When I ask her why, she says to test him because it's so much fun. FUCKING FUN dude!

I really don't get what is so wrong with women and their brain. It's like they're from a different planet.

I also don't understand this abundance mentality. If I'm with a girl, I want her to want me and only me because of me. If I have to constantly keep proving to her that I can do better and therefore she should hang on to me, then I don't want anything to do with her. What kind of love is that in the first place?

I can't trust someone like that and if I can't trust her then i don;t want her near me. I rather just fuck prostitutes.

PrimarisMarine · 2017-10-23T07:20:47+00:00

Just start talking the same way about chicks you see and see what happens..

Kingofdeadbedroom · 2017-10-23T08:02:35+00:00

Its not a shit test. She is a plate

Dmva100 · 2017-10-23T11:24:53+00:00

If you continuously talk about other women from the very first time you start hanging out (You should have options) then she won't do this.

_www_ · 2017-10-23T11:17:16+00:00

Now, why don't you be a good girl and spit some shit in the comments for me.

Oh so you're insecure about our comments, TOO?

Jake420Blaze · 2017-10-23T10:52:19+00:00

Never get in a ltr in the first place.

tropzumuch · 2017-10-23T10:16:14+00:00

I totally agree. There is still a shit test in this category.

I had to pass it once when I was out with a girl she was at a certain starting to tell me she met another cuck for about 20min before we met. It was in my blue days but I still realized I gotta pass this bs. I didn’t say much to her and she knew I passed the test and started to talk about some other topic.

It’s a shit test when it has a clear start and end.

quicklogaccount · 2017-10-23T12:45:45+00:00

You need to learn how to tell apart "I am not granted to you", which means she's insecure herself and is asserting to herself that she is not your bitch and is a pretty naive power play, from "You're better upping your game honey".

You can laugh of the first one, mock, challenge her, ignore, act however you feel fitting. She knows she threw you a sting, ignoring passes the shit test, lowering attention will let her know she crossed boundaries, challenging her gives her back the power play.

Consider saying "hey, do you think we should take a break for a week or so?" when shit like that comes up. Her reaction will tell you all you need to know, whether you want to know or not.

Tylerdurdenpower · 2017-10-23T12:53:41+00:00

Never be reactive to a women. You have alot of things going on in your life and can easily can a better girl if you want. Go with that mindset and show that strong mindset.

sickpitch · 2017-10-23T13:36:23+00:00

girls always do this. i mean 'always' do this. i have a friend, and if she wants to know that a man is for chilling, or fucking, she always use this technic. if he is listening about her ex bf he is in friendzone, or if he says 'i dont care about your ex' she tries to hang out with him.

mitsigan · 2017-10-23T13:52:23+00:00

It doesn't happen often but I have dumped the women that had interest for others than me.

HC144man · 2017-10-23T14:18:52+00:00

I have to agree with the commenters. If you get mad you lose. Her goal is to get your hamster wheel spun.

tacko276 · 2017-10-23T15:17:16+00:00

It's a shit test A&A and move on. Also remember AWALT she's gonna flirt she's gonna have orbiters there's nothing you can do about it. All of your rules, boundaries and feelings are way less important to her, than her need for validation. The reality is She will get her validation I front of you or behind your back. That being said, their definitely IS a line and if this shit happens constantly, it's probably a red flag.

Ke9817 · 2017-10-23T15:25:44+00:00

Gotta hear Bill Burr's voice in your head on this one. "Really? Did you just get wet right now? Do you need a change of underwear? This is not a scene out of bay watch, ya cocksuckah." This is a perfectly opportunity to use comedy and sarcasm to show that you aren't threatened.

48756394573902 · 2017-10-23T17:38:22+00:00

This has happened to me a few times. I just disengage, direct my attention to something more interesting. Its natural that she would find other men attractive, but it isnt interesting to talk about so give her a dim acknowlegment that she spoke and let the conversation lul, then move on to talking about something else.

He really is great. Look at his height and physique. You know what, you should go talk to him. Better yet, let me introduce you two

or

I don't like it. It's a slap in the face to my honor, and I will cut that shit off in an instant. Zero tolerance

are massive over reactions to another fleeting feminine whim. If I heard a man saying either of those things Id think he had issues. Shes a woman, what she says is just not that important. If she isnt entertaining you then the only thing you need to do is move on. Not next her, just continue on with whatever you were doing before she bid for your attention, thats a clear enough message and its punishment enough that she will very likely not do it again. Afterall what is in it for her?

logicalthinker1 · 2017-10-23T18:20:20+00:00

Indifference is the way to go. If you react either way, it shows you care. Nothing exudes abundance like Indifference.

sophiescholl2 · 2017-10-23T18:39:43+00:00

Agree and Amplify is good advice and is pretty much how polyamory became a thing.

Scrab22 · 2017-10-23T18:54:57+00:00

I knew someone who'd attempt on stealing dates/girlfriends from other men through manipulations of both sides. He'd justify himself through the assumption that those men are not good for them. It was no use fighting him, he was too stubborn to care.

oldslut · 2017-10-23T20:59:12+00:00

why are you even spewing about how much you love her?

talking about how much you love her..

vwzwv · 2017-10-24T00:50:03+00:00

You're hanging with your girl at the beach, sitting in the sand, talking about how much you love her.. Suddenly, Chad Thundercock sways by in slooooowww moooottiiiooooonnnn ( like always). Your girl cuts you off in the middle of your heartfelt shit spitting with an "Oooo he is so hot, cut me a piece of that pie". Your balls tighten up

Did you ask him nicely if you could suck his dick?

You need to work on SMV and self image. Persue others. Don't worry about what her reaction might be when she comes into the know, because you are in the process of slow ghosting her.

TheEndlessRoadAhead · 2017-10-24T04:02:35+00:00

Just find the nearest chick you'd like to bang and chat her up in front of your LTR.

Reciprocity is the key to every relationship.

Or you could just go with the more sane, less effort approach and drop her like a bag of rocks.

EscortSportage · 2017-10-24T20:55:00+00:00

Interesting topic,

I think the following:

show no emotion and let that shit slide off of you, then go Fck another girl later that night, weekend, week and or Fck her really hard as well.
Let it be known that you don't like it, look in her eyes, with a shit eating grin and say if you mentioned dumb shit like this again, I am leaving.

If she questions your word,

pack up and leave.

half of me is like if you let it affect you that's beta the number 2 option

but then not saying anything could also come off as beta as well

every situation dictates

ThrowFader · 2017-10-24T22:41:19+00:00

It is a shit test, but you fail if you keep her around.

I would simply ask her "You wanna be with him instead?"

If she keeps bringing him up I next.

Simple.

missmimid1656 · 2017-10-23T18:15:12+00:00

Not ALL woman (I'm cringing at myself for saying that but alas) are alpha-chasing whores who play subconscious mind games to test if you have this "abundance" mentality or whatever.

Honestly, any time I've purposefully brung up another guy to a guy I like, I was just being playful. It wasn't even for a specific reason, I would assume the guy (let's say it's at a stage where he knows I like him too) would take it as a joke. If a guy did that to me, I would take it as a joke (but if I were in a self-conscious or bad mood then I wouldn't be happy). The only time I wouldn't is if I [b]wasn't completely sure he likes me and only me in the first place[/b]

Yeah, being desperate or insecure is a turn off. But you don't have to be this big Alpha tough guy all the time... maybe I'm just too nice, but if I brought up another guy to the guy I liked and he showed signs of it kinda saddening him (not becoming weepy, angry or jealous) then I would most likely feel terrible for saying it. I would probably find you even more adorable.

But maybe I'm getting it wrong. I can't tell if you guys are looking for a relationship (like I'm thinking) or just to get some.

THAT BEING SAID, that's if I found you attractive in the first place. But that's obvious. And also, offering to introduce the girl to the guy she is bringing up is absolutely HILARIOUS. If somebody did that to me I would find that pretty slick tbh. I'll give you that.

IndianChad · 2017-10-23T09:03:18+00:00

Just do the same shit. A hot girl passes by, tell her how hot the girl is and how you want to bust a nut in her. Make it obvious you're checking other girls out. It's easy to make girls insecure. Or be like yeah that dudes hot too, id fuck him. Yumm, gonna bend him over and give him a piping.

At the end of the day, it's not fun to go on a date where you're just making each other insecure. Have fun, chillax. Tease each other. It's normal to check other people out 😂. I don't see no harm.

Scandinavianredpill · 2017-10-23T14:48:56+00:00

"in my beta days". then goes on to cringe whine about his GF giving him a mental slapping. Your mindset is still cringeworthy insecure, she can sense that. You act possessive because you don't have options. You are sitting at the beach telling a woman you love her so... Why? Why do you do that.

SteveLonegan · 2017-10-23T06:56:44+00:00

If it’s some dude on TV I really don’t give a shit as long as she’s not being overt and graphic. Some random dude out on the street though I’d have a problem. You really gotta start playing the jealousy game man, when she does that shit start flirting with someone else in front of her to show her she’s dispensable

MisterRoid · 2017-10-23T13:48:06+00:00

An Ukrainian woman I had sex with said that she wouldn't say no to Vladimir Putin. I didn't reply, but if anything it would make me jealous if Putin gave her attention instead of me, lol.

SovereignSoul76 · 2017-10-24T11:56:43+00:00

Step 1: Understand that women WILL be attracted to other men. Step 2: Know your limit. If you feel like she's crossing a line, tell her. Step 3: Don't take yourself so fucking seriously. Step 4: Pussy time

When She Talks About Other Men

Comments

ACTION > THINKING. ALWAYS.

Title	When She Talks About Other Men
Author	JaspersChest
Upvotes	238
Comments	171
Date	October 23, 2017 2:27 AM UTC (8 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/TheRedPill
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/TheRedPill/comments/784sjj/when_she_talks_about_other_men/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/TheRedPill/when-she-talks-about-other-men.46710 https://theredarchive.com/post/46710