FR. Hard NO.

justpickanyusername · 2017-04-24T16:10:35+00:00

I am certainly no expert in this, so take my comments for what they are worth. I had no intention of commenting for quite some time, but I have some thoughts based on some mistakes that I have made in my early journey that may be helpful. I swallowed only about 3 months ago. It wasn't until after my wife had been sick for about 3 weeks with some nasty sore throat/cough that everything finally hit me and it all made sense. We didn't kiss for those 3 weeks because I didn't want to get sick. When she was better I noticed that she was still avoiding even kissing me. WTF? I thought it was just a kiss? Why won't my wife kiss me? I was still dense and clueless at the time, but the fact that she couldn't even bring herself to kiss me hit home and opened my eyes to the red pill. I also realized that she had not given me an unsolicited "I love you" or anything for longer than I could remember. I noticed I was the only one saying it. So, I discover MRP, read both MMSLP and NNMNG in like 3 or 4 days. Realized that I had been a faggot, got all cocky, and was like I am going to game my wife! So, I started texting my wife (note: after reading more of these subs don't try to "game" with texting unless your a pro. It's just asking for trouble.) Asked if she was feeling better etc. Once I knew that she was not sick anymore I texted "So, it's been like 4 weeks, are we going to kiss tonight?". Started acting all flirty in some of the following texts. She responded all hesitantly, but didn't shoot me down. I text back that all I wanted was a kiss. Then a few minutes later I send another text trying to be flirty and fun saying "Well, maybe a little tongue..."

First off, I have now learned that gaming through text is stupid unless you are a pro (I am not). Second, I later found out that she was offended by my last text. Like deeply offended (quite sad really). A few weeks later when this came out, she mentioned how I should never talk to my wife that way with what I texted her, in her words, "shoving my tongue down her throat". WTF???

So, why am I telling you all this? My wife didn't trust me, resented me, and thought I was a jerk at the time. Anything you do or any advances you make are sabotaged if she is thinking this way about you.

So let's imagine she was single again and at a party. If Chad walks in she will respond positively to his advances. If someone she already knows she does not like does the exact same thing as Chad it will be classified as "creepy" to her. It doesn't matter how smooth that schmuck is. Even if he found TRP, he will probably be creepy for a long time before her attitude finally changes and he starts looking like Chad in her eyes.

Sorry dude, right now you are "creepy" to your wife. In my case, I knew what the root cause of my creepiness was which she mentioned as trust. I think that as of two weeks ago I have addressed it her particular hang up of trust. My wife didn't like how I squashed a particular squabble we have been having, cried for a few days, but we have had sex 4 out of the last 5 days which is more than the last 60 days combined. She is acting totally different and it is because she has finally taken off the creepy lenses she has been viewing me in for the last 12 months though my issues go back further than that now that my eyes are opened.

I am not going to write a field report because honestly, I have a strong feeling that she is going to try and revert back to where we were before since I am not done here. So, I am not claiming victory by any means. Just a battle won and I am now at a point where I think all of the other advice will start working.

My point is that focus not on gaming, yet. Focus on increasing your attractiveness and following your MAP. It will take a long time and I still have about 40 things on my MAP that I still need to do. I am trying to pace myself out over the next 10 months which is really hard once you know what you want to do and where you want to go, but you will have to be patient. Right now, you're "creepy", face it, and accept it. Pushing her too hard right now can actually set you back. Especially, if you aren't on solid ground yourself yet.

Once you can reach a point you are no longer "creepy" you can game your wife.

I have really tried to refrain from commenting until I am further down the road myself, but your situation sounds similar to mine. Just my thoughts, but I am just learning too bro.

ReddJive · 2017-04-24T15:06:03+00:00

but was hoping for better

Hope is not a method

I am going to address this trust thing. Trust as it issued in a relationshio is a weapon. What is really going on is she assumes you want her trust. That's never really considered is it? She says she doesn't trust you. And of course you can go around and around the tree as to how and why it's been worn away.

It's all bullshit. Trust is given. Not earned. It's also a female why of saying her confidence in you is shaken. Over time you recover, but to call it trust? In this case it's a self licking ice cream cone. It justifies itself. She doesn't trust you, but how do you earn trust if she already is listing ways she doesn't trust you.

She may not trust you but what she fails to see is that she trusts hundreds of people every day who are meaningless to her. They've done nothing to earn her trust as she lies it out to you.

What she is doing is holding out the carrot and wants you to dance for it. IMO it is the most overt a woman gets to telling you who is in control.

Your course is clear. Ignore it. Follow the path. Your goals of being light, happy, and fun while having a sexual overtone to your relationship to her is key. It shows her that you view your relationship as a sexual one. She knows it. She knows damn well. If it was meaningless would she be fine with you fucking some one else? Hell no she wouldn't.

Treat her "trust issue" as hers. It's not yours. Sure you could have done something that made her wonder, to have ruined her "trust" really you've shaken her confidence. Attack it as that issue, not trust. She trust you not to murder her in her sleep right? Not to steal the kids? Go rob a bank? Fuck. No one is dead are they? Then this really isn't a trust issue, but at the end of the day that's her issue to get over. She, like you, have to make a decision.

You have to show her that all this is bullshit The drama or trust, of closeness. It's crap. At some point, if you are making progress in your RP path she will suddenly decide that she trusts you again or she won't.

the point here is to improve you, your life, and you mindset.

Fuck her trust.

man_in_the_world · 2017-04-24T13:38:05+00:00

Slow your roll, Rambo.

You've been a drunk captain and beta faggot loser for almost two decades; it should take a year or more to bring her around. Sex is the last thing you should be worrying about now, and likely the last thing she'll come around on. Follow the 12 levels of dread in order, and focus on righting your ship and being a good captain. Only after she sees months of improvement in you as a competent captain and more masculine man might she become attracted to you again. Focus on that right now rather than on getting sex.

dandar4600 · 2017-04-24T13:28:40+00:00

I go out of my way to kiss my daughter on her forehead and tell her goodnight. I also tell her that I love her. Congrats you got upgraded from an unruly child to one she can tolerate.

Ps. Initiating to have sex does not mean asking her for it. If you ask she will say no. You have to initiate but seeing how she is toward you right now I would focus on reading and lifting.

[deleted] · 2017-04-24T13:54:25+00:00

She's noticing you're withdrawing attention.

Now you're going to fast , aka redpill Rambo.

Slow your roll.

Reading the 12 stages of dread are a must for you.

One month at each stage per year of being together. This means almost 2 years of work for you.

ReddJive · 2017-04-24T15:07:45+00:00

10 more pounds to go always means 30.
When I was single, I had plenty of 30 day dry spells, and I wasn't fat.

Tried to lead and set the tone for everyone to have fun

How about just have fun, instead of dragging everyone else into fun?

I told her I want to have sex tonight

Amazing watching you dry that pussy up in record time. Next time, make a move instead of asking for permission

Got a "text" from her that next morning while I was lifting that she had sent me an email that she wanted me to read. It was labeled "Trust".

Do not read. Repeat. No. If it's important, it's face to face important.

Read and Noted.

Fuck... Not bullet wound bad, but neither is a knife wound.

Progress, not perfection. You're almost back in your own frame, with your own masculine point of origin in your actions. I'd suggest you continue, and lookt for these little points you're still fucking up. Right now, you're focused on how you feel after all this, this is a mistake...

In the past, this would have devastated me....and I would have tried to DEER my way thorough every one of her points. While it's still somewhat a punch in the gut, I'm looking at it like-well It's on me to make myself the kind of guy that she wants to sit next to at the game instead of avoiding. Keep working on it.

The trick is to believe this, I don't think you do. If you did, you wouldn't have read the email.

For a little clarity why I am saying to give less fucks here... You're making it real when you engage. That email was a victim puke, and a cowardly one at that. Ignore it. When she asks if you read it later, use my line on 'important'. She'll get mad, in a huff, and broken record... Well, was it important? If it was, why the fuck would you email me? I live with you for fuck sakes...

Complete 100% pressure flip. She's validation seeking, and you retort with no reward. In this case, attention removed, by not reading every piece of paper that comes off the copier.

Beyond that, you're establishing norms for the both of you. Openly discussing grievances, and you're complete indifference of her emotional outbursts. What, she gonna leave because you didn't read an email? Divorce because you got a hard no?

If so, this relationship needed to die anyways. I'm sure once you think it through, theres 0 concequence to 99% of the shit here, so let it go. Stick to the important shit.

Then that's your frame. Yeah, she gets mad, sends stupid emails, you're not concerned unless it puts the tribe in danger, and you expect it to perform at it's best. You're building you back up, and have no time for it.

And eventually, she will pretend it was her idea, or that this all never happened. It's like she flips a light switch, goes from all this bullshit, to 'this was my plan all along!'

And when she's ready to submit, then you can give her your 'come to jesus' speech, becuase she ain't listening until then.

resolutions316 · 2017-04-24T14:13:55+00:00

Other comments here have got it right - you intellectually understand it's FAR too early to see any positive results. Yet you still emotionally WANT that, hence your asking for Sex and so on.

Just work on you. Work on your kids. DONT expect people to accept your leadership, because they don't trust you and with good reason.

Just bring value to their lives. Don't expect anything in return. Do what you should have been doing all along.

Meanwhile, work on yourself. Build yourself up - your confidence, your strength. No one fucking cares what you lift or what you eat so don't talk about it with anyone. All that matters is the results you get, not the effort you put in. The less you talk about how you're trying to change the easier things will be.

I know it's tough. I'm there with you. But focus on the process, not the result.

anythinginc · 2017-04-24T14:19:19+00:00

Married 17 years and 5 kids.

Well, she's probably not moving out on you, so that's a plus. Means you have time to do this right OP.

About one month into MRP.

Not much (outside of your attitude) is supposed to happen in a month unless you are going rambo. You seem to be on track with the STFU and not DEERing instead of talks and ultimatums. Looks good.

slapping her in the butt or any part of her body is unacceptable and is the same as hitting and will not be tolerated.

That milestone week when a few things clicked into place and you smack her butt and she turns and smiles instead of scowling is going to make you feel amazing, but it is in the distant future.

she doesn't Trust me....a dozen examples of where I've failed her

This is some real talk. Nothing you don't already know though. Like you said, you haven't been the captain, and she can't trust you to be the captain.

Read and Noted.

A+ would have been ignoring, This is a solid A though.

she actually went out of her way to kiss me on the forehead before she headed off to bed last night and said Goodnight?

But she wants you to be captain, and here is your reward for not responding to that letter like a scolded man-child.

plopping down on couch.

5 kids! Burn that couch brother, you won't need it where you are going.

I told her I want to have sex tonight

Work on your game; kino, escalation, isolation, cocky/funny. You know when you have had a good day, you know when you have opportunity, picking her up and carrying her to bed after flirting a little would have worked better than asking her. Lead HER to bed instead of asking her to take you there.

Nothing special OP. Become valuable, own your shit, build a frame, slowly take back your domain and become a good, benevolent leader for your family. Once you are awesome enough to be missed begin to condition your availability to your wife based on her receptiveness.

big blow out fights with TONS OF DEERING

You shouldn't have a fight for a long time. Because you are going to STFU and not DEER. This sounds like it will make a big difference in your family. You and I haven't said shit about her frame so you seem to be in a pretty good place.

RodSwelling · 2017-04-24T14:47:35+00:00

I'm new here, so please don't take anything I say as advice, but what specifically are these trust issues she's talking about? Did you cheat on her? Did you hit her? Something else that was real hard core?

ParadoxThatDrivesUs · 2017-04-24T15:22:17+00:00

You're getting good advice here. I'll just hammer some on the lifting and diet. If you think you're 10 pounds over, chances are good it's really 20 pounds. Getting your body back in shape is more than half the battle.

ofthehighdesert · 2017-04-24T16:16:29+00:00

When she says she doesn't trust you, it means that she doesn't believe that you are who you say you are and that you will do what you say you are going to to do. In other words, you don't have frame, or if you do, you haven't had it long enough for her to trust it. In that sense, she isn't hamstering, she is just giving you the prerequisite for sex. You getting some frame and maintaining it for awhile=attraction=sex.

Frame takes awhile to build, you have to learn what kind of man you want to be and more still, not let anybody else move you away from being that man. Sounds like you are on the right track, but it will take months before things get better with you wife. I have been married 17 years and it took me a year and a half for things to significantly improve and they still aren't where I want them to be.

BluepillProfessor · 2017-04-25T22:42:35+00:00

I've checked out the the marriage physically and emotionally

What happened to my Beta Bucks? The guy I whined and cried too and poured out my wrath upon while he took it in the ass like a good little boy.

Sorry, but these stories are really starting to piss me off.

can't be physical with me if she doesn't Trust me.

Can women do ANYTHING other than LIE about sex. They wouldn't know the truth if it grabbed them right in the pussy.

This is what I see:

You are her little beta boy. You discovered the Red Pill and decided to sprinkle on some Alpha. Now she is pining for her beta bitch that she easily ordered around and toyed with like a game piece. She doesn't accept you as her leader or even as a man worthy of her sexual attention.

The problem is you can't up the "Alpha" AND terminate the "Beta" at the same time. If you are the Beta in her eyes, you can't suddenly "Alpha up" and take away her Beta! That "Beta" is the only reason she is staying around.

What you need is to be the Oak.

And get a girlfriend. Suddenly after you fucking cheat on her she will be able to "trust" you again. Sure, that makes sense.

CaptJohnLukeDiscard · 2017-04-24T14:18:28+00:00

You are in a similar spot to me, it just took you about 10 years longer to notice it. I've got a ton of kids too so I get how draining that can be. I don't know why... maybe I'm reading too much into it or taking too much from my marriage... but I think she still loves you. She is simply scarred and wounded from you being a little bitch for YEARS.

So... what to do? First, decide what you want. It sounds implicitly like you are committed to this relationship and are not looking right now for an exit strategy. Personally, I strongly agree with that because it looks like this is a mess YOU made so leaving would be a bitch move.

If that's the case, then you need to SLOW DOWN and focus 100% on you. Expect NOTHING from her... as in for 8+ months. If she gives you something, DO NOT TURN INTO A PUPPY BEGGING FOR MORE. She needs to see you become a new person and adopt new strategies of outcome independence and owning your own shit.

It sounds like you have been incredibly dependent on her for years. That stops now. Prep your own food. Do your own laundry. Clean up your own shit. Take care of projects around the house without her asking. Basically, man up. While you are doing all this, be friendly and funny to her. Do not do all this in a "I'm a whiny passive aggressive bitch who wants to take my toys away because you won't have sex with me" way. Do it in a "this is mine and it needs to be done so I'm doing it with a whistle and a shrug" way.

Chances are very good that she is much better at hiding her emotions from you so you won't be able to see any effect on her for a long, long time. But, over time, she should start to lighten up. She will only do this if she thinks these changes are real and not just an extended covert contract.

On that note, you've got to do this shit FOR YOU. You need to be a better man because YOU want to be a better man. You want to be stronger, faster, leaner, more responsible, better dressed, funnier, etc.

As / if she starts to come around, gradually escalate playful banter and light physical touches. You've got to re-seduce her for the first time again. DON'T USE YOUR OLD TRICKS. If you used to slap her on the butt, start off with light pinches. She'll likely respond negatively at first. Give her a shitty, naughty boy grin and say something like "I couldn't help it" or "at least I didn't slap you" or "sorry, I was checking to see if you any panties on under there." Make something up, be confident yet goofy about it, and hold frame during the response. Own that you are attracted to her and own that you expect her to be attracted back. She will likely feel attraction back but will be scared / hesitant to show it so you've got to be confident enough to plow through that barrier.

Gradually keep building on all this stuff. Don't move too fast but have a freaking game plan. Write this stuff out. Plan out each month and then adjust / course correct as needed. Plan for at least 12-18 months to get the marriage back where you need it.

If you do all this and it works, you'll respect yourself, give a better life to you and your wife, and your kids will have a stable family unit. If you do all this and it doesn't work, you'll at least respect yourself, be in a better position to make decisions, and your kids will have a dad they can look up to.

RPJMRP · 2017-04-24T17:00:55+00:00

"specific plan to initiating."

This smells of autist approach. Are you scared she will tell you "no." Ego can't handle the rejection?

You didn't initiate. You "requested" sex later which coupled with years of drunk captain behavior dried her up. Further, which may be the best plan because you are early in the journey, when you avoid fights, etc with the wife, you can inadvertently be hurting yourself in the sex department. Right now, if you are STFU and avoiding confrontation then you are probably not generating any feelz. Feelings, and a man's ability to generate them in their wife will be directly tied to his sexual access in most situations.

MRP recommends STFU to stop the rambos from doing too much harm too early. You still have a long way to go in that you are worried about rejection and are solidly in her frame. Other posters have noted as much.

Here's your strategic plan for initiating with her: don't be a weirdo. Don't ask for sex. Be aggressive /masculine and know that you'll probably be shot down at first. If you get rejected, get busy doing something that betters your life. Do not be butt hurt. You are in the same exact spot that you were before you initiated. You have nothing to lose when you aren't getting laid anyway. There is no risk here.

Take it as a personal growth challenge. The challenge is Not the result of her saying yes or no, it is you developing enough frame to be outcome independent. When you truly don't care what her answer is will probably be about the time she puts it on you.

Griever114 · 2017-04-24T18:25:42+00:00

1 month per YEAR married. You are 1 month into a MINIMUM 17 month cycle of unfucking your life/marriage.
Wtf dude:

I told her I want to have sex tonight (it's been a month dry-spell).

Did you ask her to wipe your ass for you? Maybe cut your food as well? That is impossibly beta move. You shot yourself in the face before even remotely (attempting) gaming your wife.

The letter... you should have deleted it.
Monk mode... starting now. You need to finish the reading ASAP. Then read it ALL AGAIN.

[deleted] · 2017-04-24T18:38:11+00:00

Hang in there, do the reading, and keep coming here for feedback - no matter how harsh (who cares, you're trying to learn, right?)

I was in a very, very similar boat to you. 7 mos ago. Sex still hasnt come around, but alot of other things in my relationship with her have. But MOST IMPORTANTLY I'm no longer personally tossed to and fro by her rejection and withdrawl. I'm enjoying my life and my kids as much as I ever have, and I'm proud of the man I'm working hard to become. I get validation that I'm on the right path from other sources than my wife (books, internal reflection, people here, friends, other women). Maybe she'll come all the way around, maybe she wont. I can just control my engagement in the fight of life, and my perspective. Good luck, there's much good left for you no matter what she does/says/feelz.

capn_barnacles · 2017-04-24T19:55:58+00:00

Wow, sounds very similar to my situation (I'm 2 months in, but still in early phases of Dread 1/2). I've received a similar email, and had the "trust" thing thrown at me several times, even though there isn't any one specific item I've done to "break her trust". Thanks Reddjive, that insight is very helpful.

TexasThomas · 2017-04-24T23:21:31+00:00

" Last, but not least, slapping her in the butt or any part of her body is unacceptable and is the same as hitting and will not be tolerated."

That is just....odd. Are you hitting her butt too hard? Is a soft-ish smack off limits too? how about walking up behind her and grabbing it? Regardless, this intolerance of being happily-smacked seems like a rejection of your power, of any notion of your leadership -- and worse, a rejection of something that makes you happy and turns you on..... It's a subliminal rejection of course, but to equate a friendly, loving butt-smack with physical abuse is just pure nutty, illogical. I wish you well...hope things turn around.

[deleted] · 2017-04-25T00:45:32+00:00

I'm not married but dread was the key to my last relationship. It's a slow pull off the gas and not slamming on the brakes. If you just become a cunt you're doing wrong. Focus on you and lead your ship. Follow the 12 steps in order and the allotted time frame, it's not a step a day program

SpokenMemeArtist · 2017-04-25T05:29:49+00:00

Consider divorce, the marriage seems pretty fucked

[deleted] · 2017-04-25T14:29:38+00:00

Been there, it takes a long time to climb out of that hole, but it can be done. Wife was very similar to what you describe, is now affectionate and generally DTF though I don't initiate enough. But that's just my issue.

Any suggestions on a plan around initiating sex. I look at this as about the hardest of hard NO's I've ever gotten. Should I just take sex off the table and keep focusing on me only at this point?

General advice:

Stop the butt slapping for now, dial it back to light kino. Low value man she's not attracted to doesn't get to slap her butt, it's pissing her off. You can use it periodically as test to check her level of response, right now it's not helping.
" told her I want to have sex tonight". Don't do that; too overt. Long kiss, soft butt squeeze, walk away; that'll accomplish more. You're pushing a swing, lots of little pushes to get it moving and keep it moving.
Handle Your Shit: you are not attractive to her now. She will come up with reasons not to have sex with you. When you are attractive she will ignore those same things. Initiate when you want to. Take sex off the table for a while if you feel like it. But handle your shit take care of the kids, the house. Do it like it's your job. Don't list what you've done or your plans to her just Get It Done.

All of this has to be done for you on your terms for yourself. Doing it for her, for the marriage is unsustainable and she can tell you're doing it for Mommy. She doesn't want to be your mommy.

Good job on the texting discipline; very short response is best to big emotional rants.

BluepillProfessor · 2017-04-25T23:03:16+00:00

I told her I want to have sex tonight

ass slap

This only works after you get attraction back. If you had it once, it can certainly be regained. Probably the biggest obstacle is the man. You can decide that she is just to much trouble and take your hunting skills to the next lodge over. I get the kids but what is he teaching them by letting himself be openly gaslighted like this?

Title	FR. Hard NO.
Author	barhoram
Upvotes	5
Comments	74
Date	April 24, 2017 1:10 PM UTC (9 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/askMRP
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/askMRP/comments/678xg2/fr_hard_no/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/askMRP/fr-hard-no.206244 https://theredarchive.com/post/206244

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