[DEBATE][SERIOUS] - Incel and Non-Incel politely debate /r/Incels

Carkudo · 2017-09-18T06:41:09+00:00

As someone who's basically incel himself, I don't really think there's anything to discuss with or about incels. To be incel is to personally believe no woman will ever be attracted to you. That belief is almost never based in reality. It is instead based on whatever goes on inside an individual incel's head. Strictly speaking, the belief is often delusional. There's nothing wrong with being incel but it's useless to discuss or to try and have others accept your identity because it's so divorced from reality.

Electra_Cute · 2017-09-18T03:36:52+00:00

The issue with the the discussion of involuntary celibacy on r/PurplePillDebate, is not the topic itself, but the pathological involuntary celibate black pill users who discuss it.

I did some research about the ban on the involuntary celibacy topic, because it was banned before I began participating on this subreddit. The real issue is the posts that are "woe is me" and how any post that is not a "woe is me" type post will quickly change it one because some involuntary celibate will make the post about them.

Those types of users just want you to feel pity for them and give them attention, or attempt to make you feel the same way they do, that is why they want to discuss their life as involuntary celibate on r/PurplePillDebate, because they need someone to listen to them orate their black pill nonsense.

I posted this as a discussion topic recently

It just turned into a meta-discussion about the ban on involuntary celibate discussions, in addition to that an involuntary celibate was posting on the discussion topic about how the moderation team is "censoring" the topic because no one likes it. If people actually wanted to discuss involuntary celibacy they would make their own subreddit or pressure the moderation team more, but not that many people care about it or even want to discuss in the first place, it is a frustrating.

SpaceWhiskey · 2017-09-18T04:55:50+00:00

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Battle-Scars · 2017-09-18T06:09:55+00:00

Honest question. Are most incels virgins? If yes, why don't they buy an escort to at least experience sex?

Butt-Factory · 2017-09-18T06:19:38+00:00

Good effort, but there's no point in debating these people. They believe any outrageous lie they can dream up, if it fits they're narrative. You'll never be able to have a reasonable discussion with them. Best to ignore.

Carkudo · 2017-09-18T03:29:51+00:00

Did you check with the mods?

As far as my limited knowledge tells me, the idea of an "incel" originally started because of 4chan's /r9k/ board, originally used to test out a bot that attempted to ensure original content was posted

It started as a result of Gilmartin's Shyness and Love book in the 1980s - which is complete crank bullshit as far as anything goes (astrological eugenics! a master race of pretty girls to serve the whims of incels, etc). I haven't found anything in the historical record regarding incels prior to the book being published.

YetAnotherCommenter · 2017-09-18T08:35:13+00:00

I hate to say it but I have to give a limited/qualified level of support for /r/Incels, at least in terms of its function.

A lot of us anti-SJWs mock "safe spaces" but actual safe spaces are necessary for any culture (by "actual safe space" I mean that for any particular culture, a "safe space" is a social space in which the norms of that culture are adhered to). And that is what /r/incels should be.

I don't agree with or endorse everything said on that sub. But seriously, where else do incels get some degree of comfort or at least mutual assurance and a sense they aren't alone in their suffering and that at least some others understand them?

Not to mention that many non-incels go onto that sub and just spew mockery and invective, in a process that is exactly like schoolyard bullying. As a victim of bullying myself I can't help but feel for these guys.

I think if we lived in a world where non-'alpha' men weren't so routinely thrown under the bus, if the suffering of these men were treated as significant, places like /r/incels would not be necessary.

theambivalentrooster · 2017-09-18T14:11:21+00:00

How many incels have everything going well in their life except for sexual relationships?

How much of inceldom is related to various other factors in their life that make them much more unattractive than just their looks.

I admit there is some subset of the population that is unfuckable to anyone but prostitues because of their looks, but that it is much smaller than claimed and most if not all of the incels here don't fall into that category.

DashneDK2 · 2017-09-18T05:01:36+00:00

Is /r/incel a self-help group, or a pity party circle jerk group?

The Red Pill subreddit has a sidebar with a bunch of advice and I believe concrete and actionable to-do lists on what to do to get pussy. Do /r/incel have a similar to-do list on what to do, to be become an ex-incel?

JustStatedTheObvious · 2017-09-18T04:06:46+00:00

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Barneysparky · 2017-09-18T03:31:26+00:00

/u/hyperrreal incels post, these aren't allowed right ?

Lolashaulke · 2017-09-18T05:13:08+00:00

Regarding the use of the incel subreddit as a venting sub, I have a few thoughts I am hoping you'll engage with me on.

So, venting and feeling bad about stuff you can't change - although I /do/ personally believe that a lot of incel posters could, with the right self improvement be able to have very fulfilling relationships - is entirely normal. I spent a solid two months sulking after I discovered my wrist injury would never fully recover, thus removing me from a career path I had been passionate about since childhood.

However, in my case, I just got so sick of the constant pity party I was throwing myself. I wanted to be more fulfilled and I wanted to get on with life. Honestly, being that depressed and that gloomy was exhausting and not how I wanted to live. Whining and complaining didn't help, they just made me focus on disappointment. What helped me was focusing on something else - discovering a new career path and letting myself actually get excited over it.

Why I mention this is that I wonder if incels venting is actually doing them any good or if it's serving as a constant reminder to what they have lost, as it were. A certain degree of venting is helpful, but how many users there become entrenched in it until they can't see any of the real opportunities they have.

Maybe dating is entirely a forgone conclusion and it will never happen. But if that's the case, you can't change that, so how much of their lives are actually being spent living instead of lamenting? If dating is entirely forgone, there's no one tying you down so why not go travelling? Why not fully embrace things you pushed down in yourself for fear of the opposite sex not liking - maybe it's collecting, maybe it's something else, I don't know, but why not? What is there to lose?

Do people over there ever get tired of being perpetually sad? Does this ever push them to change?

So, I suppose if I summarize into a question or a main thing to address, it's that, from an outsider view, it seems incredibly damaging to its users, even as a venting tool, so do you believe that the incel subreddit is helping these people?

RockinSocksII · 2017-09-18T12:23:06+00:00

Finally, "Roastie" refers to women who engage in generally (at least by incel standards) negative behavior. This can include oversexualizing themselves, being promiscuous,

Yeah, I don't understand why this is a bad thing, so I'll have to pass.

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Ehalon · 2017-09-18T03:37:21+00:00

Hello Debates!

Thank you again for setting this up, and /r/PurplePillDebate for not (yet) locking and deleting this post.

For anyone who stops in whilst wandering past, please do add your polite, constructive comments :) As said I will principally be addressing /u/debatesnotbans with the goal of reducing the gap of understanding between /r/Incels and everywhere else on reddit.

To get things rolling I would ask /u/DebatesNotBans - from now on referred to by me as 'DNB' this:

You have described to me that /r/Incels is a 'venting' sub. Can you expand or repeat that definition for me please?

Carkudo · 2017-09-18T05:34:46+00:00

I'm very interested in incels and their lives, so I was wondering if you could answer some questions I had. This is not to debate, just out of curiosity.

Have you seen the documentary Shy Guys: IRL? If so, what did think of it, and do you identify with any of the incel men featured?
I watch a lot of videos on incels on YouTube and I was surprised to learn how attractive and adjusted some of them appear. They report that they get female attention, but fail to follow through. Why do you think this is? Are they preemptively avoiding future rejection? Have you ever passed on an opportunity for any reason?
It seems that quite a few incels here have some form of autism. Do you see this is a major factor in why many incels have difficulty forming relationships?
What unconventional methods of finding women have you tried?
Is there any type of women who you would not want to be in a relationship with?
What separates a normal unattractive guy, who still has some dating success, and an incel? How are their circumstances different?

Atlas_B_Shruggin · 2017-09-18T08:29:19+00:00

[permanently deleted]

Carkudo · 2017-09-18T12:05:17+00:00

So as an Incel (I'd arguably be a MGTOW but that implies I can go a woman's way in the first place), I do find some belonging in places like /r9k/, /r/Incel and /r/MGTOW because it generally attracts weird people who are considered outsiders or castoffs (I identify with that a lot), but I find that a lot of it is too chest-beat-y and too small-minded. I used to love parts of /r9k/, not necessarily because it was about "tfw no gf", but depression can make people funny as fuck (Robin Williams as a prime example) and r9k was the funniest place on Earth.

There's too much of a drive to make it a movement or a brotherhood or even a cult to do things to collectively strike back against normies (I do love normie-bashing though) and women (I do like pointing out things to woman-are-wonderful apologists though). Or they bring up small things like "LOOK AT WHAT THIS WHORE DID" and it's some kind of article where OP was ignoring the actual important parts that explain most of what is actually happening and just getting angry about surface issues.

And I get the feeling a number of them don't wish they were Chad, but wish they were yesterday's manly men, not realizing that yesterday's manly men are mostly mythologized as some kind of stoic badass who didn't take shit from a woman (real manly men can turn into fat babies at a moment's notice and turn into henpecked husbands just like anyone else).

Ehalon · 2017-09-18T03:54:07+00:00

I don't think anyone owes you love, sex, companionship etc. so...the concept of inceldom is pretty stupid to me
I'm a woman and I don't get actual men flying my way (the bob/vagene sort don't count LMAO) and it's honestly not a big deal idgi

80_20 · 2017-09-18T08:43:12+00:00

Every suicide thread: Men should be more open with their feelings and state how they feel.

Every incel thread: You deserve to be alone, shut up, everything you say is toxic, I have no idea why you feel this way. You're wrong and shut up.

Which is exactly the problem why people kill themselves. Everything has its root cause, and success in love is a major one that most people ignore.

Want to know why men don't discuss their feelings? Look what happens when they do.

Ehalon · 2017-09-18T03:30:48+00:00

Fast forward to age 18, I started posting on 4chan. I dont quite remember exactly when I started using /r9k/, but it wasnt more than a few months after I started posting. Fast forward again to three years ago, when the Isla Vista shootings took place. /r9k/ was flooded with "normies", and was generally unusable. This also marks the final nail in /r9k/'s coffin. I stopped browing /r9k/ with much frequency since then. A couple weeks before this account was created, I discovered /r/, and saw it as /r9k/ 2.0, though it was very, VERY different. And that leads us to the present.

just go to 8chan then you fuckin nerd

pinkgoldrose · 2017-09-18T04:23:48+00:00

[permanently deleted]

Ehalon · 2017-09-18T05:41:58+00:00

Damn, I did not manage to last as long as predicted. Apologies /u/DebatesNotBans but I have to get to work.

Thank you again, and I will pickup as soon as I can later on today or tomorrow assuming /r/PurplePillDebate will still have us!

I'm still committed to answer, and challenge where needed each point and reply you make.

Thank you everyone else for chiming in - keep the debate running!

I think most of the West can agree on one thing - we are becoming far too polarised.

Civilised discussions, outside of our respective echo chambers can only be a thing for good.

Peace all, see you soon X

prodigy2throw · 2017-09-18T07:48:08+00:00

That's quite the post history

Love8Death · 2017-09-18T16:05:11+00:00

"Roastie" refers to women who engage in generally (at least by incel standards) negative behavior. This can include oversexualizing themselves, being promiscuous, being shallow, being manipulative (and other similar actions, like playing mind games, or having white knights or orbiters)

Women using their sexuality to their advantage is wrong?

Why is it bad for a woman to have orbiters? To allow men to white knight?

I have never been a shallow person. I have been interested in deep meaningful connections with other people around me since an early age, and, as such, I dont personally place much value in "pursuing sex". Or, in other words, I'm not "thirsty". More importantly, this means that I'm not "blinded" by women's sexual charm, and so I'm able to objectively see the things women do. For example, a regular guy might see a girl post a picture of her cleavage on social media, think it's hot, and click "Like" and "You are so beautiful <3". A bit of a hyperbole, yes, but it happens extremely frequently. In contrast, I would see the picture, and think "This girl is just using her boobs to fish for attention". This, of course, means that I've been seeing women do this kind of thing ever since I was a young teen. Not at all interested in the women who do this kind of thing.

You say you're objective, yet seem to miss the point of why women put out sexual signals, and even more oddly hold it against her? Miss the point that sex is a focus and important for women in a relationship too? Seem to think of yourself as better than those that do also focus on sex?

It's like you have a problem with the basis of attraction itself and only see some intellectual sort of 'deep meaningful connection' as the only valuable, reasonable, good, and non-shallow focus of a relationship.

Which, isn't really the basis of romance, so that correlates with inceldom quite well.

Ehalon · 2017-09-18T22:24:45+00:00

Another branch of the topic - The Atomic Black Pill - Stickied on the front page of /r/Incels.

Women are much more inclined to pursue a guy for his looks

This seems to fall under that topic also.

So we have:

A faked photograph of a model on a shoot.
A faked profile claiming 'he' has raped a child on 3 different occassions.
Women replying, ignoring his monstrous crimes due to looks.

No one of any sense would believe that faked up picture.

No one with a single shred of decency would go near a convicted child molestor (the police might though - how come they haven't?).

/r/Incels would have you believe that all the stuff on the right, is NOT faked, it just happens to perfectly fit their narrative.

/u/DebatesNotBans - is this an example of a hyperbolic, vent post, or are you truly asking me and every non-Incel to believe that the whole thing is NOT a fake?

Ehalon · 2017-09-18T22:32:42+00:00

https://www.reddit.com/r/Incels/comments/70m0y0/our_sub_got_brought_up_in_askreddit_this_what/dn4bi4c/

Do a find on the page for /u/ilieknothing.

His flair is:

breast cancer is on our side.

He proudly proclaims that 'I will never change it'

Does this disgust you as it does 99.9% of humanity /u/DebatesNotBans ?

This is not 'venting', it's sick.

Where is his ban?

Where is the condemnation?

Do you now start to see why people are disgusted? Can you see why 'all Incels hate women' is viewed as a perfectly and logical conclusion?

Or examples such as:

https://www.reddit.com/r/Incels/comments/70lg80/feminism_is_a_disease_islam_is_the_cure/

Where is the ban and condemnation following the call 'Yes burning is the only solution for feminists. from /u/Tellem-T?

Please 'explain' that one away?

CONCLUSION - Yes, Incels HATE women**

I didn't even get to page 3 for those links DNB.

Ehalon · 2017-09-19T01:45:06+00:00

Okay /u/DebatesNotBans we are having a 'message stacking problem' so I will finish up MY case, and pass over to you.

My Conclusions:

Incels are mostly (95%) responsible for their incel status - personality, outlook and an elementary school level of social and sexual awareness, combined with a similar lack of experience in 'the real world'.
Heterosexual Incels (all?) have anywhere from an active disdain to an active hatred of ALL women, even though they have a high probability of having less social and sexual experience with women than average to their age. They have to take absolutist positions - 'we all know most / all women only do X to gain Y'. Ironically they hate what they desire most, and feel that 'society' has unfairly denied to them (see the point above).
Incels heap a huge amount of 'positive privilege' on women due to them being women. They highlight certain societal reactions and claim they are 100% true for all women 100% of the time, and yet actively ignore any negative societal reactions and expectations women have put up with for centuries, with the same level of devotion and fervour allotted to both claiming and denying.
I appreciate that mental illness can, through no fault of the individual, severely hamper their ability to understand and engage in social situations that more than 98% of adults navigate with ease.
Due to these factors and as a defence mechanism, Incels must create a 'safe space' whereby the only agent not at fault is themself.
Due to said lack of personal skills, group think and herd mentality a number of Incels say and claim some truly horrendous things and are unwilling or unaware of the consequences of doing so.
The subreddit /r/Incels is absolutely not a support group in any recognisable fashion, in fact it functions to ensure the majority continue to have their 'safe space' to hold onto and share their absolutist and child like world views.
What is even more concerning and insidious is the claim that Incels have their 'black pill' which gives 'evidence', in the absolute loosest term rebutting any forms of criticism or challenge that would threaten the herd cohesion.

Whilst we have both acknowledged it is difficult to prove with data that assertions are correct, partially correct or incorrect, it is my view that as with many things we encounter the most likely explanation is most likely nearest to the truth.

As brief as I can be:

Incels are responsible:

I will present my evidence for:

You remember the Incel with the charming flair of 'breast cancer is on our side'?

The person who, as far as I can tell has never had this statement questioned, a post removed, or received anything but neutral or positive responses to his vile and hateful message.

/u/lieknothing kindly sullied my inbox with the following:

'I never said they deserve breast cancer but I am rooting for breast cancer'

'For who?'

'For females because I hate them.'

(For further 'proof' please read through the thread, and /r/Incels. /u/DebatesNotBans does rightly point out that some posts are 'called out' by Incels, and that call out is upvoted to the top or very near, however no further action seems to be taken).

'Normies' = Non-Incels hae reported being banned for essentially sedition - not conforming to the herd narrative.

Again, /u/ilieknothing remains an unbanned, unpunished member of /r/Incels after admitting hating women and hoping they get breast cancer

Please let that sink in when you hear DNB say 'But that is one person!! It's a joke bro!'

Incels hate women + emotionally and sexually stunted

/u/bloodrot (who has since deleted his account) posted this AMA:

https://www.reddit.com/r/casualiama/comments/6zckzt/im_a_22_yr_old_that_has_never_been_on_a_date_and/

He has since deleted that account, which is telling.

I suspect he has undiagnosed autism, but you can easily see his [deleted] responses to 'Normies' who seem to genuinely want to try and help anddd... he is highly abusive and rude to them.

Assume /u/bloodrot is 12 (sorry other 12 year-olds), it is still a joke.

** Women and their 'privilege'** :

From /u/DebatesNotBans most recent post:\

There are many many men who would love to have a relationship, although they are physically not very attractive. They have tried again and again without success.

There is a woman who complains about not having a boyfriend, and never being asked out.

A bit sloppy, I'll admit, but some inferences can be made.'

'many many men' 'there is a woman'

Absolutist, and see how it is many, many struggling men to every one woman.

I do not accept this as being true.

Mental Illness + Autism :

Social anxiety - I've read a lot, it sounds hellish. I would only say many redditors have reported having SA, and are managing jobs AND a relationship'. Same for people on the spectrum, except the non-Incels are *actively learning and practicing the social cues**.

If relevant, I don't know if I have seen an Incel with SA or autism do the same. Again - I don't know, maybe /u/DebatesNotBans will address in his 'closing'.

** Claiming horrendous things** :

Again trying to stay within this thread - do a CTRL+F for rape. It took a lot of work to try and get an answer to:

'Do you accept that how a woman (or man) is dressed has no bearing on consent'

I'm still not 100% on having gained an answer from DNB as he seems to very easily forget the question once the question is 'pinned down' and any erroneous 'misdirection' has been removed.

In his defence he last said he agreed, somewhat. Have a look.

/r/Incels is Not a Support Group

I'm yet to find any members congratulating and celebrating a new friendship or relationship with a woman or man.

Maybe I need to look further.

The 'Atomic Black Pill' :

Yes /u/DebatesNotBans I absolutely believe that to be fake. I need some more time to prove, but sadly I think even if I did:

It would change nothing.
The post would stay

I'll update all soon, need to concentrate but basically it is a fake Tinder profile with a male model picture, literally, saying in the Profile section that he has been convicted on THREE occassions of sex with minors.

A convicted child molester.

And what do you know, women replied with interest and ignored the convictions! PROOF!

Except...no. The women's responses look uncannily like they were faked by a grown, virginal (no shaming) man who is wanting to reinforce a cult like narrative.

Occam's razor brothers and sisters.

Hopefully, if that is not enough I can provide concrete proof. My 'skillz' are rusty :)

Bravo if you are still with me.

I agreed to and worked with (a small amount, 95% of the work is DNB's) an Incel wanting my conception to be changed.

It has, but only in the way that Scientology may present Tommy Davis) in front of documentary makers.

I don't wish to be personal towards /u/DebatesNotBans, and respect that he is willing to have a debate, of sorts.

Where things fall down for me is that he has, on multiple occassions:

Diverted by means of 'What is this original point?', possibly to avoid answering.
Edited statements and even my own replies (when quoting) to fit the narrative.
Using only his life experience and social media. We can ALL 'destroy' a feminists perfectly valid remarks by simply pointing to an extreme feminazi. Too often he has said 'it is common for women', 'most women do' and even forgiving that, the 'evidence' is social media.

Blow me away, shallow narcissists use Instagram. But only the women, no gym bros and swole sluts...

No.

I would still encourage debate and dialogue over isolation, there are quite a few things from /r/Incels that go way beyond the pale, but just shouting at people gains nothing.

Thanks for reading! I'll respond to whatever I can that crops up.

Over to you /u/DebatesNotBans.

Ehalon · 2017-09-18T04:34:19+00:00

[permanently deleted]

Merger-Arbitrage · 2017-09-18T04:56:30+00:00

[permanently deleted]

Title	[DEBATE][SERIOUS] - Incel and Non-Incel politely debate /r/Incels
Author	DebatesNotBans
Upvotes	4
Comments	398
Date	September 18, 2017 3:25 AM UTC (8 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/PurplePillDebate
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/PurplePillDebate/comments/70selm/debateserious_incel_and_nonincel_politely_debate/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/PurplePillDebate/debateserious-incel-and-non-incel-politely-debate.266037 https://theredarchive.com/post/266037

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