CMV: TRPers can barely read. | PurplePillDebate

BiggerDthanYou · 2018-10-03T07:21:28+00:00

I've never seen so many people with such an absurdly poor reading comprehension than the manosphere so let's test this theory. If you want to...

[–]Russelsteapot42Non Pill27 points28 points29 points 7 years ago (57 children) | Copy Link

[–]LeJacquelopeHaving a son is child abuse9 points10 points11 points 7 years ago (14 children) | Copy Link

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[–]LeJacquelopeHaving a son is child abuse14 points15 points16 points 7 years ago (7 children) | Copy Link

Hypergamy is the most classic example of toxic femininity. Hyergamy forces mate competition among males and is entirely the basis of patriarchy. A ton of misogyny comes from bitterness about hypergamy. Hypergamy is in no way caused by men - but Patriarchy does help to perpetuate it.

Remove hypergamy and patriarchy loses its entire foundation.

Another more minor example of toxic feminity include blaming men and Patriarchy for every time a woman gets a Pussy Pass, even while feminists are justifying Pussy Pass and going so far as to say women shouldn't go to prison for crimes. This actually hurts women, too, because women who assault and rape women go unheard of and also:

https://everydayfeminism.com/2014/11/myths-ipv-lesbian-relationships/

Of course, we then had to warn crisis line advocates who approve people for shelter to be extra cautious when screening. You see, some lesbian abusers have pretended to be victims of intimate partner violence so that they could gain entry into shelters and find their partner.

Lesbian abusers can do this because feminism has perpetuated the narrative that only men are abusive and women are always the victims. Bringing up women as perpetrators damages their message, so feminists work hard to keep this out of the limelight. So abusive women flourish. Which is why domestic violence is stupidly high among lesbians, and sexual assault is reported in no less than 30 percent of lesbian relationships.

[–]BiggerDthanYouBluetopia[S] 2 points3 points4 points 7 years ago (6 children) | Copy Link

Hypergamy is the most classic example of toxic femininity. Hyergamy forces mate competition among males and is entirely the basis of patriarchy. A ton of misogyny comes from bitterness about hypergamy. Hypergamy is in no way caused by men - but Patriarchy does help to perpetuate it.

How does society dictate that women have to be hypergamous and how are they shamed for not living up to that standard?

Another more minor example of toxic feminity include blaming men and Patriarchy for every time a woman gets a Pussy Pass, even while feminists are justifying Pussy Pass and going so far as to say women shouldn't go to prison for crimes. This actually hurts women, too, because women who assault and rape women go unheard of and also:

https://everydayfeminism.com/2014/11/myths-ipv-lesbian-relationships/

Of course, we then had to warn crisis line advocates who approve people for shelter to be extra cautious when screening. You see, some lesbian abusers have pretended to be victims of intimate partner violence so that they could gain entry into shelters and find their partner.

Lesbian abusers can do this because feminism has perpetuated the narrative that only men are abusive and women are always the victims. Bringing up women as perpetrators damages their message, so feminists work hard to keep this out of the limelight. So abusive women flourish. Which is why domestic violence is stupidly high among lesbians, and sexual assault is reported in no less than 30 percent of lesbian relationships.

These could more accurately be described as passive femininity, because those ideas state/dictate that women are/should be passive, submissive, unviolent, quiet, etc

But all in all you are showing that you still do not even understand the very basics. You are talking about behaviors of women, but not about standards on appropriate behavior for women. If you want to talk about toxic femininity you've got to address societal expectations that dictate that they should engage in harmful behavior.

[–]LeJacquelopeHaving a son is child abuse11 points12 points13 points 7 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

How does society dictate that women have to be hypergamous and how are they shamed for not living up to that standard?

They're not shamed for not being hypergamic. Society doesn't need to dictate that women be hypergamous, that's nature that does that.

But all in all you are showing that you still do not even understand the very basics.

Ah, you're one of those people who knows nothing and then accuses others of not knowing. For one, societal expectations are not at all needed for toxic femininity to exist, because female hypergamy is toxic in and of itself, and it far predates Patriarchy, and is seen throughout the animal kingdom. Your foolish reliance upon "societal expectations" to establish toxic femininity is a major shortcoming of your misguided and uninformed position. It actually borders on intentional intellectual dishonesty.

Toxic is as toxic does. The behaviors of women dictate the toxic elements of femininity.

There will be no further discussion about "expectations." In fact I'm completely done with your useless rant. See ya.

[–]sublimemongrelBecky, Esq.1 point2 points3 points 7 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]LeJacquelopeHaving a son is child abuse0 points1 point2 points 7 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]BiggerDthanYouBluetopia[S] -4 points-3 points-2 points 7 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

For one, societal expectations are not at all needed for toxic femininity to exist, because female hypergamy is toxic in and of itself, and it far predates Patriarchy, and is seen throughout the animal kingdom.

You clearly do not know what words mean so let me help you out.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Femininity

Femininity is a set of attributes, behaviors, and roles generally associated with girls and women

https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/femininity

Qualities or attributes regarded as characteristic of women

https://www.vocabulary.com/dictionary/femininity

the trait of behaving in ways considered typical for women

Societal expectations are essential because when we are talking about masculinity or femininity we are talking about societal expectations.

Your foolish reliance upon "societal expectations" to establish toxic femininity is a major shortcoming of your misguided and uninformed position. It actually borders on intentional intellectual dishonesty.

How is using the correct definition intellectual dishonesty? All it tells me is that you do not care about a honest discussion because you aren't even willing to learn what you are debating against.

There will be no further discussion about "expectations." In fact I'm completely done with your useless rant. See ya.

How is pointing out that you have no idea what you are arguing against useless?

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So surely you feel the same about toxic blackness? Toxic homosexuality?

Blackness and homosexuality refer to innate properties of someone. You are born black or gay.

Masculinity refers to societal standards and expectations on men. You can adhere to masculine gender norms if you want to.

Those things simply aren't analogous because one would be an attack on something people are born with and the other is an attack on societal standards that are being pushed upon people.

Maybe you would see academic usage of that term as a means of providing cover for vile racists, homophobes, and islamophobes?

But how? You've got to consider that I'm not a TRPer and therefore can read instead of having to rely on absurd strawman arguments.

For example if I read one of the following academic uses of toxic masculinity I do not get triggered for no reason like TRPers do and instead actually read and understand what they are saying.

The term toxic masculinity is useful in discussions about gender and forms of masculinity because it delineates those aspects of hegemonic masculinity that are socially destructive, such as misogyny, homophobia, greed, and violent domination; and those that are culturally accepted and valued (Kupers, 2001). After all, there is nothing especially toxic in a man’s pride in his ability to win at sports, to maintain solidarity with a friend, to succeed at work, or to provide for his family.

or

Toxic masculinity refers to harmful societal expectations of how a traditional male should behave. Ideas related to toxic masculinity have been normalized in society; comments like, “be a man,” “that’s girly,” and “man up” stem from this attitude.

or

Toxic masculinity is a type of masculinity that tells men there is only one way to be a man and that man must be dominant, aggressive and devoid of any emotion. It is a type of masculinity that forces men to live within the constraints of rigid and narrow gender roles. It is a type of masculinity that harms women and men.”

How is it used as a cover for sexism and where is the sexism here? How are those an attack on men and not just an attack on certain societal standards?

[–]Russelsteapot42Non Pill11 points12 points13 points 7 years ago* (4 children) | Copy Link

Masculinity refers to societal standards and expectations on men. You can adhere to masculine gender norms if you want to.

Those things simply aren't analogous because one would be an attack on something people are born with and the other is an attack on societal standards that are being pushed upon people.

So 'Toxic black culture' and 'Toxic gay culture' then?

How is it used as a cover for sexism and where is the sexism here? How are those an attack on men and not just an attack on certain societal standards?

And you make such a point about how you 'can actually read', yet you fail at reading comprehension. The academic usage provides cover for the pejorative usage by giving the term a sense of validity that people who use it as a pure pejorative, to tear people down, depend on to defend their actions.

[–]BiggerDthanYouBluetopia[S] -1 points0 points1 point 7 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

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[–]SilentLurker6667 points8 points9 points 7 years ago (22 children) | Copy Link

Blackness and homosexuality refer to innate properties of someone. You are born black or gay.

Masculinity refers to societal standards and expectations on men. You can adhere to masculine gender norms if you want to.

Lol... so according to OP people are not born male. It's like ask if basic biology like having a dick or more testosterone doesn't matter.

Also...

Masculinity refers to societal standards and expectations on men

Nice bait and switch on the definition, except it's not the conventional term

"Definition of masculine. (Entry 1 of 2) 1a : male masculine members of the choir. b : having qualities appropriate to or usually associated with a man a masculine voice. 2 : of, relating to, or constituting the gender that ordinarily includes most words or grammatical forms referring to males masculine nouns."

[–]BiggerDthanYouBluetopia[S] 3 points4 points5 points 7 years ago (21 children) | Copy Link

Lol... so according to OP people are not born male. It's like ask if basic biology like having a dick or more testosterone doesn't matter.

That's just more proof that TRPers can't read very well.

Masculinity refers to societal standards and expectations on men

Nice bait and switch on the definition, except it's not the conventional term

"Definition of masculine. (Entry 1 of 2) 1a : male masculine members of the choir. b : having qualities appropriate to or usually associated with a man a masculine voice. 2 : of, relating to, or constituting the gender that ordinarily includes most words or grammatical forms referring to males masculine nouns."

Nice proof of my theory that TRPers can't read very well.

Plus

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Masculinity

Masculinity is a set of attributes, behaviors, and roles associated with boys and men. As a social construct, it is distinct from the definition of the male biological sex.

https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/masculinity

Qualities or attributes regarded as characteristic of men.

https://www.vocabulary.com/dictionary/masculinity

habits and traits that society considers to be appropriate for a man.

[–]SilentLurker6660 points1 point2 points 7 years ago (20 children) | Copy Link

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lvcnx6-0GhA

It's not ""TRPers can't read very well" - it's more like we don't agree with the terms that you've conveniently interpret on your end to justify your own argument. You can't have an intellectually honest argument if we aren't using the same terms that correspond with the same meaning.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Masculinity

can you at least be a bit intellectually honest here? Literally the first and second paragraph of the link: "One of the most famous depictions of Heracles, originally by Lysippos (marble, Roman copy called Hercules Farnese, 216 CE) In Greek mythology, Heracles is synonymous with Apollonian masculinity. Masculinity (also called manhood or manliness) is a set of attributes, behaviors, and roles associated with boys and men. As a social construct, it is distinct from the definition of the male biological sex.[1][2] Standards of manliness or masculinity vary across different cultures and historical periods.[3] Both males and females can exhibit masculine traits and behavior.[4]"

Traits traditionally viewed as masculine in Western society include strength, courage, independence, violence,[5] and assertiveness.[6][7][8] Machismo is a form of masculinity that emphasizes power and is often associated with a disregard for consequences and responsibility.[9] Virility (from the Latin vir, "man") is similar to masculinity, but especially emphasizes strength, energy, and sex drive.

https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/masculinity

Qualities or attributes regarded as characteristic of men.

Does this disagree with what I've said? Or are you implying that men can be men without displaying characteristic of men?

https://www.vocabulary.com/dictionary/masculinity

habits and traits that society considers to be appropriate for a man.

We act as men therefore we are masculinity; not the other way around.

[–]BiggerDthanYouBluetopia[S] 3 points4 points5 points 7 years ago (19 children) | Copy Link

can you at least be a bit intellectually honest here?

I am.

Literally the first and second paragraph of the link: "One of the most famous depictions of Heracles, originally by Lysippos (marble, Roman copy called Hercules Farnese, 216 CE)

In Greek mythology, Heracles is synonymous with Apollonian masculinity.

Masculinity (also called manhood or manliness) is a set of attributes, behaviors, and roles associated with boys and men. As a social construct, it is distinct from the definition of the male biological sex.[1][2] Standards of manliness or masculinity vary across different cultures and historical periods.[3] Both males and females can exhibit masculine traits and behavior.[4]"

Traits traditionally viewed as masculine in Western society include strength, courage, independence, violence,[5] and assertiveness.[6][7][8] Machismo is a form of masculinity that emphasizes power and is often associated with a disregard for consequences and responsibility.[9] Virility (from the Latin vir, "man") is similar to masculinity, but especially emphasizes strength, energy, and sex drive.

How is this contradictory to "Masculinity refers to societal standards and expectations on men"?

They explicitly talk about "roles associated with men", "standards of manliness" and "traits traditionally viewed as masculine in Western society".

https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/masculinity

Qualities or attributes regarded as characteristic of men.

Does this disagree with what I've said?

How is this contradictory to "Masculinity refers to societal standards and expectations on men"?

Or are you implying that men can be men without displaying characteristic of men?

If adhering to masculine gender norms would make one a man in Western society then transgender men would get naturally addressed as men.

But in the Western world you can certainly be a man without displaying masculine behavior or a woman even if you display masculine behavior. For example just take a look at all the TRPers that insist that Caitlyn Jenner is a man despite her adhering to feminine gender norms.

https://www.vocabulary.com/dictionary/masculinity

habits and traits that society considers to be appropriate for a man.

How is this contradictory to "Masculinity refers to societal standards and expectations on men"?

[–]SpaceWhiskey🍃 Social Justice Druid 🍂2 points3 points4 points 7 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

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[–]SilentLurker6662 points3 points4 points 7 years ago (15 children) | Copy Link

How is this contradictory to "Masculinity refers to societal standards and expectations on men"?

Because these standards and expectations are driven by biological differences. It's literally putting the cart before the horse. As stated before male define masculinity and not masculinity defines men as per society. The problem of BP's position is that they think men can forego their masculinity and still be men and that's the furthest thing from the truth.

They explicitly talk about "roles associated with men", "standards of manliness" and "traits traditionally viewed as masculine in Western society".

Can't run away with biology. "strength, energy, and sex drive" - are all driving by testosterone.

If adhering to masculine gender norms would make one a man in Western society then transgender men would get naturally addressed as men.

But in the Western world you can certainly be a man without displaying masculine behavior or a woman even if you display masculine behavior. For example just take a look at all the TRPers that insist that Caitlyn Jenner is a man despite her adhering to feminine gender norms.

We'll just have to agree to disagree here - gender isn't a social construct. A guy having male physical traits is a male. Also citation needed for the Caitlyn Jenner comment.

How is this contradictory to "Masculinity refers to societal standards and expectations on men"?

See above.

[–]BiggerDthanYouBluetopia[S] 1 point2 points3 points 7 years ago (14 children) | Copy Link

Because these standards and expectations are driven by biological differences. It's literally putting the cart before the horse.

They are still societal standards even if they have a basis in biology.

Like for example it's a sex difference that males cry less due to higher amounts of testosterone, but the idea that men shouldn't cry is a social construct built upon those sex differences. Not all cultures came up with the idea that it's wrong for men to show emotions or that it makes them lesser men.

It's a gender difference that men shouldn't cry or that crying men are faggots because it's not universally true across cultures, but merely a cultural opinion of the western world.

We'll just have to agree to disagree here - gender isn't a social construct.

That's not an actual argument, that's solely further proof that TRPers can barely read. Instead of using words according to their definition you use them according to what you feel, which makes it impossible for you to understand what people are actually saying. If you want to have a honest discussion you have to learn what words mean.

Gender is a social construct, simply because that's how it is defined. The fact that gender is a social construct is not debatable, because by definition gender refers to societal ideas.

[–]SilentLurker6661 point2 points3 points 7 years ago (12 children) | Copy Link

They are still societal standards even if they have a basis in biology.

Again - putting the cart before the horse. Biology drives the social standards, not the reverse

Like for example it's a sex difference that males cry less due to higher amounts of testosterone, but the idea that men shouldn't cry is a social construct built upon those sex differences. Not all cultures came up with the idea that it's wrong for men to show emotions or that it makes them lesser men.

Because most BP like you doesn't make the leap of logic that man's role in society is to be its protectors, and in order for women to be more secure and select the best mate to be protected, men cannot show any weakness... including shedding tears.

It's a gender difference that men shouldn't cry or that crying men are faggots because it's not universally true across cultures, but merely a cultural opinion of the western world.

If gender is a social construct... then why it is such a coincidences that despite so many different cultures developed in different environments, they all came to the same conclusion and the very similar gender norms?

That's not an actual argument, that's solely further proof that TRPers can barely read. Instead of using words according to their definition you use them according to what you feel, which makes it impossible for you to understand what people are actually saying. If you want to have a honest discussion you have to learn what words mean.

That's just me telling you that we disagree, and you are too quick to jump to conclusion and slander your foes in a debate, which to me is extremely ad hominen and hostile. Perhapse you would take your own advise and read your opponent's response before replying. Clearly you have problem reading.

Gender is a social construct, simply because that's how it is defined. The fact that gender is a social construct is not debatable, because by definition gender refers to societal ideas.

Gender is a social construct, simply because that's how it is defined. The fact that gender is a social construct is not debatable, because by definition gender refers to societal ideas.

Except if gender is a social construct, then how come girls instinctly play with dolls without being honed into it? And how does one define gender in a vacuum? Finally as I've stated before, the "social construct" are stemmed from biology itself. Male has more testertone which means they have more muscles then the female counterpart... which also means their role in society is the protector and the aggressor, another example is how the male and female brains developed different due to hormones which made male more analytical and female more linguistic ... again you can't run away from biology.

[–]BiggerDthanYouBluetopia[S] 0 points1 point2 points 7 years ago (11 children) | Copy Link

They are still societal standards even if they have a basis in biology.

Again - putting the cart before the horse. Biology drives the social standards, not the reverse

Learn to read.

I clearly said that they are often built upon sex differences and that they are often based on biology.

If gender is a social construct... then why it is such a coincidences that despite so many different cultures developed in different environments, they all came to the same conclusion and the very similar gender norms?

First: because societal ideas are social constructs even if they have a basis in reality

Secondly: they didn't. There have been plenty of cultures where men could freely cry or where men would wear pink. There are cultures where women have short hair short while men have long and beautifully groomed hair.

It just seems this way nowadays because the Christian missionaries did their best to force their world view across the globe. The missionaries spread this gender system, these gender norms, homophobia and transphobia.

Except if gender is a social construct, then how come girls instinctly play with dolls without being honed into it?

If it's instinctively it's a sex difference, but not a gender difference.

You can say that toy preferences are a sex difference, but that gender differences further enhance this.

And how does one define gender in a vacuum? Finally as I've stated before, the "social construct" are stemmed from biology itself. Male has more testertone which means they have more muscles then the female counterpart... which also means their role in society is the protector and the aggressor, another example is how the male and female brains developed different due to hormones which made male more analytical and female more linguistic ... again you can't run away from biology.

And again I never said that you can run away from biology. All I'm saying is that you should learn to use the correct definitions of words.

[–]SilentLurker6661 point 7 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Learn to read.

I clearly said that they are often built upon sex differences and that they are often based on biology.

So gender is based on social standards which is based on Biology. Do you agree with this?

First: because societal ideas are social constructs even if they have a basis in reality

Emphasis on reality forming societal ideals and not the reversed. Which means you would already know that why men's crying is looked down upon...

Secondly: they didn't. There have been plenty of cultures where men could freely cry or where men would wear pink. There are cultures where women have short hair short while men have long and beautifully groomed hair.

Citation needed for culture where men could freely cry... as for pink... in roman times pink is actually a boy's color. The point here isn't about color of hair length, but within the context of PPD about why men have to be the initiator in the SMV, AF/BB, why female have to be selective in their mating partner, etc.

It just seems this way nowadays because the Christian missionaries did their best to force their world view across the globe. The missionaries spread this gender system, these gender norms, homophobia and transphobia.

Disagree. The gender dynamics existed way before Christianity existed... your own links a few post above betrayed you when you linked wikipedia's definition of masculinity and used Roman Gods as examples. (and yes this is your foot in mouth moment.)

If it's instinctively it's a sex difference, but not a gender difference.

So according to BP, sex and gender is the same, or it's different whenever it's convenient for them in an argument.

And again I never said that you can run away from biology. All I'm saying is that you should learn to use the correct definitions of words.

Except your own argument is that gender is a social construct... so it is a social construct, or biology?

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[–]BiggerDthanYou1 point 7 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

So gender is based on social standards which is based on Biology. Do you agree with this?

Some are, some aren't, but yes.

Sex and gender are distinct, but related.

Sex is the biological aspect. It's your chromosomes, hormones and sexual organs. Your sex is either male or female.

Gender is the social aspect. It's your role in society (man or woman) and the associated gender norms (masculinity and femininity). It's a social construct because it refers to societal ideas.

Citation needed for culture where men could freely cry...

The expressions of the emotions in man and animals - Charles Darwin

With adults, especially of the male sex, weeping soon ceases to be caused by, or to express, bodily pain. This may be accounted for by its being thought weak aid unmanly by men, both of civilized and barbarcus races, to exhibit bodily pain by any outward sign.

With this exception, savages weep copiously from very slight causes, of which fact Sir J. Lubbock has collected instances. A New Zealand chief "cried like a child because the sailors spoilt his favourite cloak by powdering it with flour." I saw in Tierra del Fuego a native who had lately lost a brother, and who alternately cried with hysterical violence, and laughed heartily at anything which amused him. With the civilized nations of Europe there is also much difference in the frequency of weeping. Englishmen rarely cry, except under the pressure of the acutest grief; whereas in some parts of the Continent the men shed tears much more readily and freely.

and even nowadays there are cultures where men can openly shed tears like Persia or Japan.

as for pink... in roman times pink is actually a boy's color. The point here isn't about color of hair length, but within the context of PPD about why men have to be the initiator in the SMV, AF/BB, why female have to be selective in their mating partner, etc

Yeah but that's why you can use "female nature" to describe the biological aspect and "femininity" to describe the environmental aspect.

It's unfeminine for women to initiate sex, but that's also not true cross-culturally. Promiscuity wasn't always seen as bad and there are hunter and gatherer communities where women even have multiple partners at the same time. A hunter, a builder and one that helps to take care of the kids.

Required reading: Sex at Dawn

[–]BiggerDthanYou1 point 7 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Disagree. The gender dynamics existed way before Christianity existed... your own links a few post above betrayed you when you linked wikipedia's definition of masculinity and used Roman Gods as examples. (and yes this is your foot in mouth moment.)

You should really try to understand what you are reading because I clearly said that they spread it.

So according to BP, sex and gender is the same, or it's different whenever it's convenient for them in an argument.

Not a single TBPer has ever said that sex and gender are the same. The sex and gender distinction is our shtick.

Except your own argument is that gender is a social construct... so it is a social construct, or biology?

It's a social construct, because it refers to societal ideas.

Males cry less due to higher levels of testosterone = sex

Societal standards dictate that men shouldn't cry which in turn causes them to hold back on the tears they would naturally shed = gender differences

[–]SilentLurker6662 points 7 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

You should really try to understand what you are reading because I clearly said that they spread it.

Allow me to elaborate my question: Explain how Christianity, which existed around 30 AD, spread to influence culture with the concept of masculinity (of Herculean and Apollonian) that existed in 300 B.C, or the concept of Yin and Yan of the Chinese philosophy representing masculinity and femininity, who already have this concept around at least 500 B.C?

Not a single TBPer has ever said that sex and gender are the same. The sex and gender distinction is our shtick.

If you would like to read again... I'm criticizing BP for conflating the terms of sex and gender in an argument when it's convenient for them to do so.

It's a social construct, because it refers to societal ideas.

Males cry less due to higher levels of testosterone = sex

Societal standards dictate that men shouldn't cry which in turn causes them to hold back on the tears they would naturally shed = gender differences

I think you should read more. I never stated that male cry less due to higher level of testosterone (in fact that's biologically false, testosterone doesn't inhibit tears)... because testosterone level doesn't have any direct influence on tear ducts (and again another example how BP often misinterpret RP's idea, and then defeat said "strawmen arguments"). Allow me restate this more clearly.... male's role in society is to be strong to protect their women.. and tear is a sign of weakness. Therefore it is not advantageous for men to cry. That is the social construct... and the social construct exist because men have to be stronger and show no weakness in order to be successful and attract mate... that's dictated by biology.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point2 points 7 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]StaySkepticYT 0 points1 point2 points 7 years ago* (2 children) | Copy Link

[–]BiggerDthanYouBluetopia[S] 0 points1 point2 points 7 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

As if there's nothing biological about general differencrs in feminine and masculine behavior

Argue against my actual position and not some made up strawman argument.

I said "Masculinity refers to societal standards and expectations on men", but not "Masculinity refers to societal standards and expectations on men and it has no relation to biology at all"

You are born male or female, and parts may or me not be toxic depending on how you deal with them.

That's not an actual argument. You are merely showing that you have no clue what you are arguing against.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Masculinity

Masculinity is a set of attributes, behaviors, and roles associated with boys and men. As a social construct, it is distinct from the definition of the male biological sex. Standards of manliness or masculinity vary across different cultures and historical periods.

Masculinity refers to the cultural standards that are based on sexual dimorphism, not the biological traits of the male sex.

It's about societal standards that push men to engage in harmful behavior.

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He’s using the point that trpers unable to recognise that masculinity is a set of social standards

Which is ignoring biology, but again feminists do like to ignore biology as to them everything is a social construct.

Read the OP again, if toxic masculinity isn’t all masculinity then by definition there is a masculinity that is not toxic.

Doesn't mean positive masculinity exist. But toxic masculinity is an academic term that he and that you for that matter are trying to make it about grammar. This is one of the many problems of feminism as it takes a normal English word and redefines it. Take racism. The dictionary defines it as being a racial prejudice, feminists want to define it as power plus discrimination. They want the same with sexism. That way they have a pass to be sexist to men and racist to whites.

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Nature has no influence at all and we are all just completely blank slates

Why is there a term for this thing if nobody believes it? There's no term for the belief that humans are born with six fingers, but doctors surreptitiously cut the sixth finger off. There's no term for that because nobody believes that. Why is there a term for the belief that humans are born infinitely malleable - blank slates?

Seems like somebody believes it. If you have an argument, then perhaps you should go talk to them.

I hate a type of masculinity that's toxic

The word we have a problem with is "toxic." I note that you didn't attempt to define that word. Instead, you're just used a tautology to defend the entire phrase. It's fallacious reasoning.

"It's toxic masculinity - you know, masculinity that's toxic, duh, what's the problem?" The problem is, that sentence doesn't actually mean anything. Rainy and yellow have well defined meanings when used in the previous sentences.

"The real problem is noxious women - you know, women who are noxious, how could anyone disagree with this common sense statement?"

Maybe if you tried defining it then we could have a discussion about it.

[–]BiggerDthanYouBluetopia[S] 1 point2 points3 points 7 years ago (7 children) | Copy Link

Am I seeing this correctly? A red pill male that understands that "I hate toxic masculinity" doesn't mean "All masculinity is toxic and I hate it". Wow that's a first.

I note that you didn't attempt to define that word. Instead, you're just used a tautology to defend the entire phrase. It's fallacious reasoning.

The point isn't what toxic means. The point is that barely any other TRPer understands that "toxic masculinity" means "a masculinity that's toxic" instead of "masculinity is toxic", because they generally seem to have severe reading disabilities.

Maybe if you tried defining it then we could have a discussion about it.

Here's a post where I compiled a list of definitons: https://www.reddit.com/r/PurplePillDebate/comments/8b82a0/cmv_toxic_masculinity_shows_that_trp_isnt_willing/

Short version: The term toxic masculinity is useful in discussions about gender and forms of masculinity because it delineates those aspects of hegemonic masculinity that are socially destructive, such as misogyny, homophobia, greed, and violent domination; and those that are culturally accepted and valued (Kupers, 2001). After all, there is nothing especially toxic in a man’s pride in his ability to win at sports, to maintain solidarity with a friend, to succeed at work, or to provide for his family. These positive pursuits are aspects of hegemonic masculinity, too, but they are hardly toxic.

Even shorter version: Toxic masculinity refers to harmful societal expectations of how a traditional male should behave.

[–]nicethingyoucanthaveRed Pill Male3 points4 points5 points 7 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

The point isn't what toxic means.

Oh yes it is! Folks like you, people who share your ideology, have a nasty habit of using terms you've made up in motte and bailey tactics. I freely admit that if the world was "red pill" and TRP had real political power, we'd likely do it as well. But we don't, so we're not the problem here. You are.

The intention of the term "toxic masculinity" is to be wielded as a political weapon to silence your opponents. For example (a purely hypothetical example, of course), you will use it to try to prevent a man from defending himself against baseless, politically motivated accusations of rape.

You do not have a legitimate need for a term "toxic masculinity." If an individual person exhibits a bad behavior, then you are free to criticize that behavior all by itself. There is absolutely no valid reason to generalize that individual's behavior into a group-specific term. And here's the real kicker: if this was being done to any other group, you would recognize the truth of what I just said.

Toxic masculinity refers to harmful societal expectations of how a traditional male should behave.

"societal expectations" is just another cant for you to use to obfuscate the fact that all these ideas are intentionally malleable so that they're useful as weapons. Do you disagree? If so, I challenge you to find me a feminist telling another feminist that the other feminist has just used the term toxic masculinity incorrectly. You wont be able to find one because the purpose of the term isn't to accurately represent the world, and thus no one will be corrected for inaccuracy. The purpose of the term is to wield power - so long as you use it to push a feminist worldview, there's literally nothing you can put under the umbrella that will be contradicted.

I encourage you to read this article. The relevance of it is the way you (naively or dishonestly) delineate between the "real" definition and the practical use. Here's an excerpt: "It was wrong of me to say I hate poor minorities. I meant that I hate Poor Minorities! Poor Minorities is a category I made up that includes only poor minorities who complain about poverty or racism."

[–]BiggerDthanYouBluetopia[S] 0 points1 point2 points 7 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

The intention of the term "toxic masculinity" is to be wielded as a political weapon to silence your opponents.

Are you aware that you sound as delusional as any other conspiracy theorist?

You do not have a legitimate need for a term "toxic masculinity."

But we do. For example lots of men suffer silently because they are afraid of going to the doctor/therapist because they think getting help makes them lesser men or that they will get called pussies for it.

Toxic masculinity is used to free men from those strict gender norms that cause harm to them, but of course TRPers do not even listen because their emotional reactions and feels makes it impossible for them to listen to what's actually being said.

If an individual person exhibits a bad behavior, then you are free to criticize that behavior all by itself.

That's only further proof that TRPers generally lack reading comprehension.

Toxic masculinity isn't an attack on behavior of men. It's an attack on harmful societal standards that dictate that men should engage in those harmful behaviors. That's an important difference.

Shaming men for expressing feelings is toxic masculinity, but having control over your feelings isn't.

You wont be able to find one because the purpose of the term isn't to accurately represent the world, and thus no one will be corrected for inaccuracy.

Why should I even spend a tiny amount of energy if you start out like this? It's clear that you are a conspiracy theorist that wouldn't even be convinced if I offer a hundred sources.

[–]nicethingyoucanthaveRed Pill Male0 points1 point2 points 7 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

you sound as delusional as any other conspiracy theorist?

(a) an ideology is not a conspiracy. Go on, look it up. Feminism is not a conspiracy. TRP is not a conspiracy. The Tea Party is not a conspiracy. Therefore, criticizing their political tactics is not a "conspiracy theory"

(b) when you go on about "hegemonic masculinity" and the like, you sound as delusional as any other religious fanatic. Go on, look up what a religion is. "belief in and worship of a superhuman controlling power" - patriarchy is your superhuman controlling power.

lots of men suffer silently because they are afraid of going to the doctor/therapist because they think getting help makes them lesser men or that they will get called pussies for it.

You hypocrisy is laid bare! When women make choices that hurt themselves (for example, choosing low-paying careers), do you call that "toxic femininity?" No, of course not. You call that patriarchy.

So here are two hypotheses: (1) when men make choices that hurt themselves, that's a result of a superhuman controlling power known as matriarchy. But when women make choices that hurt themselves, that's toxic femininity.

(2) when men make choices that hurt themselves, that's a result of toxic masculinity. But when women make choices that hurt themselves, that's patriarchy.

Propose an experiment that would falsify one of those. As you try to think of one, keep in mind, "matriarchy hurts women too"

Toxic masculinity is used to free men from those strict gender norms that cause harm to them

Yikes. I said above that you sounded like a religion. Now you sound like a creepy death cult. You're going to "free men" eh? Try to imagine how insulting it would be for a group of Men's Rights Activists to explain how they're just trying to "free women from the strict expectations of feminism, which causes them so much harm"

...and it does cause harm, you know. Women are less and less happy every year. I often try to imagine what it would be like if TRP "won" in the same way that feminism has won. What if TRP was completely socially acceptable the way that feminism is. What if there were openly TRP politicians and it was taught in school. And then, what it surveys found that men were getting less and less happy each year? Logically, wouldn't I have to abandon TRP? Wouldn't I have to admit that it had been a lie? Well guess what, that's the situation you're in with feminism.

Toxic masculinity isn't an attack on behavior of men. It's an attack on harmful societal standards

I guess you didn't read the part where I explained to you what a motte and bailey is. Here's the paper again: https://philpapers.org/archive/SHATVO-2.pdf Please give it a click this time - you'll save me having to repeat myself.

"Harmful societal standards" is your Motte. It's your easily defensible ground. Who could possibly argue against that? But as I pointed out in my previous reply, the real purpose of the concept of toxic masculinity is to wield political power. "Attacks on the behavior of men" are your Bailey - that's the fertile ground that you're really after.

So for example, if I go right now and search google news for "kavanaugh toxic masculinity" am I going to going to find (a) "harmful societal standards" - in other words, am I going to find articles that say it's too bad that society has told Kavanaugh that he is expected to behave this way - it's so sad that this is hurting him - Kavanaugh is the victim here, and we feminists want to free him!

or (b) "attacks on the behavior of men" - in other words, look at this guy's behavior! It's bad!

Shaming men for expressing feelings is toxic masculinity

Ah. So as a hypothetical, if a man expresses feelings of frustration and anger at being falsely accused of a heinous crime, surely you wouldn't shame him for that, right?

You wont be able to find one because the purpose of the term isn't to accurately represent the world, and thus no one will be corrected for inaccuracy.

Why should I even spend a tiny amount of energy

You shouldn't! That's precisely my point! You can't find an example because no such example exists because the claim I made was true.

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It would be easier if you did the most basic research yourself because each and every source on toxic masculinity lays out this difference.

And it's also pretty simple actually. If I complain about shitty food and then list ten things that make food shitty it's quite clear that non-shitty food would be one without any of those ten things.

But to save me some time here is a simple explanation

https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1002/jclp.20105

The term toxic masculinity is useful in discussions about gender and forms of masculinity because it delineates those aspects of hegemonic masculinity that are socially destructive, such as misogyny, homophobia, greed, and violent domination; and those that are culturally accepted and valued (Kupers, 2001). After all, there is nothing especially toxic in a man’s pride in his ability to win at sports, to maintain solidarity with a friend, to succeed at work, or to provide for his family. These positive pursuits are aspects of hegemonic masculinity, too, but they are hardly toxic.

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I hate rainy days

The answer is B.

Rain falls somewhere on earth every day. Therefore if you hate days that have rain you hate them all.

I do not like yellow cars

Neither A nor B is correct.

The correct answer is C) I hate all yellow cars, whether I hate all other cars is left undefined.

I hate toxic masculinity

The correct answer is B).

Given how proponents of the term expand it at Will to incorporate any aspects of masculinity as toxic, depending on personal whim, it’s relatively easy to find people who define any aspect of masculinity as “toxic” therefore all you can safely say about such a person is that they hate some aspects of masculinity (which they will classify as toxic) and that those aspects can be drawn from any part of masculinity they wish to draw them from.

The issue here is that anyone can, at any time, add anything to the category “toxic masculinity” based on the fact they don’t like it, and the fact that it’s already incorporated in the category “masculinity” in the first place.

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Butler offers a critique of the terms "gender" and "sex" as they have been used by feminists.[31] Butler argues that feminism made a mistake in trying to make "women" a discrete, ahistorical group with common characteristics. Butler writes that this approach reinforces the binary view of gender relations. Butler believes that feminists should not try to define "women" and she also believes that feminists should "focus on providing an account of how power functions and shapes our understandings of womanhood not only in the society at large but also within the feminist movement."[32] Finally, Butler aims to break the supposed links between sex and gender so that gender and desire can be "flexible, free floating and not caused by other stable factors". The idea of identity as free and flexible and gender as a performance, not an essence, is one of the foundations of Queer theory.

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Title	CMV: TRPers can barely read.
Author	BiggerDthanYou
Upvotes	14
Comments	172
Date	October 3, 2018 7:21 AM UTC (7 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/PurplePillDebate
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/PurplePillDebate/comments/9kyz0o/cmv_trpers_can_barely_read/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/PurplePillDebate/cmv-trpers-can-barely-read.260281 https://theredarchive.com/post/260281

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