what’s the line between assertiveness and abuse?

LivelyLychee · 2022-04-15T22:28:27+00:00

Hi RPW-

A reminder that abuse is a problem that is very beyond the scope of RPW. We are not qualified as unprofessional internet strangers to help someone navigate abusive circumstances safely, effectively, or productively, because to do proper intervention requires physical presence and ongoing involvement, neither of which we are able to provide.

Because of this, telling an OP to just “leave him girl” is inappropriate advice. Instead, please refer OP to seek professional intervention if you think there is abuse present in her relationship. Any comments in violation of this rule will be removed.

u/redditbae123, the circumstances you’re describing do not seem healthy. Please seek professional help with this situation. If you need me to help you find resources, I will be happy to.

anothergoodbook · 2022-04-15T16:36:43+00:00

That isn’t assertiveness. Assertiveness is being firm in your stance and principles not having to berate other people to comply. Telling someone to shut the fuck up, is not being assertive.

You asked for examples of how other husband’s behave when they’re angry. We’ve had a lot of arguments over the last few years (not as bad in the last year), but my husband and never told me to shut the fuck up. He’s told me to stop talking so we can breath and come back later. He’s told me to stop so we can sleep. He’s gotten really angry to where he needs to walk away. He makes it a point that is he’s swearing, it is not at me (for example he might say, “this shit makes me so fucking mad” but he wouldn’t direct something like that toward me - like name calling or anything). I have said that I need to shut the fuck up and he’s agreed, but that’s a little different.

My husband earns my respect, not by demanding it, but by being a strong man who works hard and is a good leader.

I am not there so I can’t say what is happening prior to him behaving like that. If you’re being totally disrespectful and talking to him the way you’re saying he’s talking to you - then there’s an unhealthy dynamic to your relationship and it’s mutually abusive. But if he is behaving like that with no provocation, then it’s abuse regardless of how nice he seems when he isn’t angry.

I get that this sub isn’t as weird about age differences. But I have a concern about that big of a gap. Has he been married or in serious relationships? Curious to know his history.

VivaLaVict0ria · 2022-04-15T16:54:47+00:00

To answer you title question,

Assertiveness = Healthy, co-operative, works with any age group, everyone feels heard, empowering, understanding.

Abuse = Aggressive, belittling, steamrolling, cursing, impatient, controlling, shutting down / fear response, fight or flight.

ladida1321 · 2022-04-15T17:01:21+00:00

I have never been told to “shut the fuck up” (even when I probably should hah)

I would also never ever say that to anyone. It’s very disrespectful.

It seems like you feel like you’re always “in the wrong”. Do you feel you have to walk on eggshells to avoid upsetting your boyfriend?

I also find this comment odd “is this abuse or is this just a man putting a woman in her place”. The phrase “putting someone on their place” usually isn’t kind and honestly strange you are so passive. Based off solely your post, you shouldn’t tolerate someone treating you poorly to “put you in your place”. That’s a very aggressive statement in my opinion, and it’s not one someone who respects and loves you would say.

ayllie_01 · 2022-04-15T16:35:23+00:00

The way this has been described is sad and frankly a confusing relationship dynamic. I have never said stfu to anyone and in all honesty if someone would say that to me mid argument I’d see that as a clear sign to leave.

BePrivateGirl · 2022-04-15T17:59:35+00:00

I think you should go check out Married Red Pill sub. STFU is advice that those men tell other men to do. The advice is for the man to stop talking so much.

STFU as a RP concept isn’t something that a man yells towards the woman.

As a woman, learning to be a good listener during conversations where a man is being open, communicative, vulnerable etc… is a beautiful skill

But complying with someone yelling STFU at you, or having difficulty complying with that rude and potentially abusive request…Is not a RPW skill to be learned.

This whole situation sounds bad.

Foxrhapsody · 2022-04-15T17:06:27+00:00

That’s not assertiveness, it’s straight up abuse

gd_reinvent · 2022-04-15T22:51:50+00:00

You are 27. At your age, you should be looking for a life partner. How do you want to be treated by the person you are with for the rest of your life?

Also, I think you should talk to a professional. Even a volunteer from the Samaritans or Salvation Army could help you with your situation.

CrochetedCoffeeCup · 2022-04-15T23:51:41+00:00

There are a lot of red flags here.

You were 24 and he was 39 when you got together. That is a very big age gap. While legal, it strikes me as inappropriate.

Secondly, I have never, NEVER been so embroiled in an argument with my husband that he has told me to STFU. We have been together for ten years and we are both very stubborn and NEVER have we gotten beyond a slightly raised voice with each other. This is another big red flag.

Third, if you are constantly apologizing and being belittled as you do so. You seem to be dismissing this as “getting triggered.” Could it be that you are standing up for yourself or explaining yourself, and he is intentionally making you feel bad about it? If you can’t have a conversation with the man without something “triggering” you or or without being shouted down, this is another HUGE red flag. You have to be able to talk to be in a productive relationship.

Fourth, you said he doesn’t lead in the way you want. You say that your sexual chemistry isn’t right and that you feel “forced.” (Yikes!!!)You can’t have an open conversation with him. Are you even happy in this relationship? Do you think you’ll be happy if you are on a similar situation with him in five or ten years?

I cannot say if the behavior you described is abusive, but the fact that you are concerned it could be suggests you need to seriously reevaluate this relationship.

If it were me, I would be making me exit plan.

Tiredxyz25 · 2022-04-15T22:38:42+00:00

I didn’t read the whole post because reading half was enough : you are so young, young enough to find someone not only younger but also who treats you so so much better. Never tolerate a man who yells stfu at you. You sound like a wise woman who is very articulate and sensible, you deserve better. Lay out what’s wrong with the way he is treating you if you truly love him but know guys in their late 30s/40s rarely ever change imo. They are set in their ways. And you have so much time to find someone who really takes care of you emotionally

jaja667 · 2022-04-15T17:47:33+00:00

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LittleDragonMaiden · 2022-04-15T17:47:34+00:00

I believe you boyfriend is being verbally abusive. Assertive would be a stern no, abusive is yelling profanities like he is doing.

saddensgirl · 2022-04-15T22:50:05+00:00

This sounds like verbal abuse, not assertiveness. My husband is very dominant, but he has never told me to literally STFU at any time in our relationship. Even in bed. I suggest you tell him that his words hurt you and ask him not to speak to you in that manner again. The point of RPW is to be with a man who can lead you both to happiness, not be someone's doormat.

Also next time he puts you down and says you don't please him, ask him point blank how you can please him. You can't rectify the situation if he won't tell you the solution. And as your captain, he should be resolving such issues as he guides your relationship.

Catherine772023 · 2022-04-16T08:41:08+00:00

He isn’t being assertive. The way he unreasonably berates you shows he’s aggressive in a bad way when you’re always respectful is unacceptable. And he shouldn’t keep interrupting you. Both of you deserve a chance to speak.

You were moving something on the bed so you could get it out of the way to make it easier to enjoy sex with him. Yet he still mistreated you.

The fact you apologise to him and he says this is bs. He shouldn’t speak to you like that especially after you being so respectful to him.

Quite frankly he owes you an apology.

He should listen to you.

Assertive ppl care about the views of the other person and listen. Your man isn’t assertive. He’s aggressive. And I am not qualified to assess since it’s not obvious physical abuse but you might want to talk to a therapist or other professional because it could be abuse.

whyregretsadness · 2022-04-15T16:56:33+00:00

Sounds like time for therapy and if he’s not willing time to go

Starmangaze · 2022-04-16T10:20:05+00:00

It's abuse and you should leave him. It will only escalate and get worse.

cameforthereading · 2022-04-21T10:17:50+00:00

A real man is respectful in his assertion. This boy is angry and disrespectful. Get out now, and maybe seem help! This is abnormal, unsafe, unmanly, and dangerous. Being an RP man means leading with firmness, respect, and love, not this.

emmalai85 · 2022-04-15T20:13:55+00:00

I have autism and OCD - and I sometimes push issues I shouldn't. I've given him permission to tell me to stop talking. If I don't, he's been given permission to escelate until I hear him - whatever that means in the situation. Very, very, very, rarely has it required him telling me to shut up because I'm being disrespectful and he's setting a clear boundary because playing nice wasn't working. A heart to heart where you both leave your emotions at the door is the only way you talk this kind of situation out, and if his go to is to shut down the conversation, there's no feedback on either side that works.

shutting the situation down can sometimes need to happen, but we've talked about it. I know where my behavior comes from, we've talked about it, including if I feel it hurt my feelings, or that I felt like I wasn't being heard, so when he does it to me, I listen to him and back down, later, I will communicate (usually via text) to try to get my point across and he will respond. He's never not explained why he finally stopped the conversation or set the boundary he did in the moment. It's not always a perfect way, but i'm autistic and I get I can be a bulldog with a bone if something gets under my skin and that's not fair to him. He deserves me to be respectful, and I would rather he help me be what he needs then tell me I'm a failure and walk away leaving me feeling lost and like I'm not the woman he needs.

But this isn't what your describing. He isn't doing it to help you. he isn't doing it to help your relationship, he's doing it because he just wants... the situation to stop? If that's the case, you need to find out WHY. What is going on that he feels the need to do that - If you can't talk about it, you can't fix it on his side, or your side. If he's not willing to communicate that's not the same thing as trying to control the situation so it doesn't escelate into an arguement.

Even if he "shuts me down" in the moment, there is always a follow up discussion for us to get back on the same page.

No one is perfect, and I don't expect either of us to be, and I totally understand that as a team we sometimes need to work together.

But when I read this, I don't see him trying to communicate effectively with you - even if you were being disrespectful or rude, does he ever tell you what behavior he feels IS that? Because that's what I see is missing.

Communication. He's not having effective communication. Neither are you.

Everyone said what I would say, but I personally would advise you to read the book "non-violent communication" and take the parts from it that could help you.

Also - the dance of anger, by harriet lerner.

It's an old book, but it's one of the better ones I've read about taking responsibility about your part of communciation, how to set boundaries, and how to walk away with out escelating situations.

I don't judge the age difference because i'm 36 and my husbands 50 this month and i've been married to him since I was 20.

But our entire marriage was trying to learn how to communicate, how I could meet his needs to be more agreeable, feminine, kind, demure and pleasent, and communicate effectively, and on his side, a good leader, firm, guiding, communicate effectively, kind, protective, and working together on both sides to be what the other person needs.

When I read your post, working together is not what i'm reading. There's no communication, your age difference to be is irrelevent, if he was 25 and treating you like this my feelings would be the same.

Neither of you are communicating well and until you work on it, nothing will get better. You have a couple options.

Suck it up. (don't recommend this one.)

sit down and figure out some boundaries to work on communication on your side, while trying to still be feminine and not-nagging and do work on your side, and if he refuses to do things on his side, evaluate the longevity of this relationships.

Have a heart to heart, and the results and behavior resulting of that (if he tells you to shut up, won't work on it via a therapist, counselor, or pastor, or whoeever you trust to help guide the relationship when you need outside help.) end it.

Those are kind of your options in a situation like this, and his age is irrelevent to these decisions, this is strictly about his behavior towards you and lack of communication. You can learn how to communicate at any age if you want too.

Give him a path if you want to keep the relationship where you can fix this together. If he won't put in the effort you will, you have your answer.

Technical-Penalty-52 · 2022-05-01T21:36:47+00:00

... This is concerning. My boyfriend doesn't curse at me. That sounds abusive.. And I think you know that already. Maybe couples therapy?

redditbae123 · 2022-04-15T17:36:57+00:00

question for you ladies- he has justified his behaviour (saying STFU, steamrolling, etc) in the past by saying that my behaviour is abusive which just elicits this out of him. does this change anything? i dont see my behaviour as abusive, perhaps neglecting my feminine responsibilities, but this is how he views it. imo, even if he was right that my behaviour is/was abusive, that shouldnt justify him retaliating with more abuse. thoughts? thanks for the responses so far.

BePrivateGirl · 2022-04-16T02:22:34+00:00

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Catherine772023 · 2022-04-16T08:15:14+00:00

Aggression is starting a fight. Assertiveness is self defence.

That is the physical side of things.

Assertive ppl seem reasonable compromise caring for themselves and the other. Aggressive ppl (who often end up beings abusers if directed at their partners) want it to be their way or no way and mistreat you to get what they want.

aussiedollface2 · 2022-04-17T11:40:22+00:00

This is verbal abuse. Not appropriate.

NeinLive · 2022-04-17T18:35:58+00:00

Just the age gap alone sent up a huge red flag. The majority of the reason why men go for younger women when they can't get someone their age is because they can't manipulate and treat someone their own age the way they are treating you, the perfect victim. Someone who is naive and has low self-esteem is a perfect victim for narcissistic male abuse. I'm not going to tell you to leave or tell you what to do because it's something every young woman has to learn.

When you accept this behavior happening in your life you truly subconsciously tell yourself that you're not worth anything. Have you been feeling negatively about yourself lately? How's your self worth doing? Both you and him are culprits in the conspiracy of turning you into a worm. Not just him. You could have shut that down early. But you don't respect your energy, mental health, or youth enough to not let this man ruin you.

Title	what’s the line between assertiveness and abuse?
Author	redditbae123
Upvotes	24
Comments	41
Date	April 15, 2022 4:17 PM UTC (4 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/RedPillWomen
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/RedPillWomen/comments/u4bmo3/whats_the_line_between_assertiveness_and_abuse/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/RedPillWomen/whats-the-line-between-assertiveness-and-abuse.1112565 https://theredarchive.com/post/1112565

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