Do feminists think we're proponents of the patriarchy? Is that where the disconnect is?

dakru · 2012-08-13T17:48:28+00:00

I once saw a video with Christians claiming that Scientologists worship the devil. Scientologists don't believe in the devil, of course, but the Christians couldn't quite fathom that.

I've been told by a Feminist that "at least we can agree that the patriarchy hurts men too". I don't believe in "the patriarchy", of course, but Feminists can't quit fathom that.

Hach8 · 2012-08-13T17:40:21+00:00

The disconnect is the idea of "the patriarchy" in the first place.

Feminists attribute most gendered societal problems that affect them to the patriarchy, and then say it's bad, and then by extension dismiss men and their opinions.

Then they talk out of the other side of their mouths, supporting the patriarchy when it lines up with their message. For example, justifying the fact that women refuse to date unemployed men, Rape Violence / Primary Aggressor policies which assume men is the perpetrator, and the recent surge of books by feminists crying about how men aren't "manning up."

In reality, we both oppose "the patriarchy." It's just that feminists don't realize many of the things they support / advocate for are examples or outgrowths of the patriarchy.

TracyMorganFreeman · 2012-08-13T17:19:33+00:00

The disconnect is that many forms of feminism are proponents of the patriarchy, just one as GWW puts it "patriarchy in lipstick".

Willravel · 2012-08-13T16:41:49+00:00

The disconnect is that we correct feminist misinformation and legislation.

ENTP · 2012-08-13T20:36:50+00:00

Considering that men are worse off on most measurable metrics of happiness and wellbeing, and the fact that pro-woman/anti-male legislation is on the books and enforced, and the fact that feminism is official dogma at Universities...

Well I'll let you draw your own conclusion on "patriarchy" from that.

AryoBarzan · 2012-08-13T19:42:28+00:00

The patriarchy is a paradox which pretty much translates to: "whatever feminists don't like is part of it".

I think the only kinda decent argument I've heard from them is the idea that women take the man's surname in marriage, which is pretty weak since it's entirely optional.

Oh yeah? Ask the next feminist you meet with this view about what she thinks about a MAN having to buy her a RING for the EXACT SAME REASONS? The ring and the surname were both indicative of a man 'owning' a woman. Yet... for some straaange reason... I don't hear feminists whining about being given expensive rings which they can sell after a divorce for a huge profit. Wonder why that is?

BrutusBeefcake · 2012-08-13T16:50:55+00:00

Patriarchy is pretty much already dead. What we're going to can be seen in 'Idiocracy'. That's already best outcome scenario.

rottingchrist · 2012-08-13T16:53:42+00:00

Patriarchy = men.

Your very existence is oppressive to feminists.

typhonblue · 2012-08-13T19:31:46+00:00

Feminists like their position as cosseted harem-girl. They just don't like it pointed out that that's exactly what they are.

zyk0s · 2012-08-13T19:02:06+00:00

Let's see.

Patriarchy with a small p is what anthropologists call a social system where the communal unit is the family, where the men is at the head, acts as a provider and representative to the rest of the community. Patriarchy with a big P is a feminist concept that posits all patriarchal societies were basically created as a male conspiracy to enslave women.

Some MRAs are social egalitarians. They believe gender relations should be carried from an equal stance, and have varying degrees in belief in the family as the natural social unit. Other MRAs are traditionalists, and believe the patriarchal model to be the optimal arrangement (and quite a few women share these beliefs too).

Now, in defense of patriarchy: throughout history, and across the globe, every single major civilization had a patriarchal model. Every society that has tried a different model has not be successful from a socio-evolutionary point of view. Our own western societies have abandoned it less than 50 years ago, so it's not exactly possible to draw any conclusions on that yet. What this means is, you can be ideologically opposed to a patriarchal system, and suggest a system that works better, but cannot simply dismiss old patriarchal systems as broken because this is what carried the civilizations to this day.

rightsbot · 2012-08-13T16:26:19+00:00

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HalfGingGhost · 2012-08-13T22:40:33+00:00

There are plenty of feminist that are against many of the things you've listed. But there are plenty of MRAs that whine about stupid shit that isn't Men's Rights. Radicals on both sides annoy the shit out of me.

OuiCrudites · 2012-08-13T18:29:07+00:00

The disconnect is that the Feminist movement is a vile supremacist cult herding together vast legions of emo-sheep braying "Feminism is equahlitee" while they eat our testicles.

DavidByron · 2012-08-13T18:35:11+00:00

Feminists don't think. That's where the disconnect is. It's one of the most cult-like ideologies out there. There's zero room for individual opinions on the main issues - which certainly includes "patriarchy".

Show me a feminist who can think and I'll show you someone who's leaving that movement. It's as simple as that. The fact is this has already been going on a long time and the result is that the people who are left, the scrapings at the bottom of the barrel as it were, do not think.

You can debate people on a lot of politically "controversial" issues but you can't debate a feminist because they can't abide criticism of their ideology. They are hard core cult-like censors and ideologues.

I mean if they just don't know what the word means and they're young maybe that's something. I expect a lot of people on Reddit would be like that, but even then, they indoctrinate early and often.

People don't become feminists by thinking about stuff and they don't leave by thinking about stuff.

Willravel · 2012-08-14T03:58:35+00:00

It seems like they're bigger believers in the patriarchy than we are.

Actually, it's a major theme in feminism that men are victimized by patriarchy just like women. {Edit: evidence} Unequal systems based on any groups, be they gender, race, religion, or orientation, always end up not only significantly oppressing the minority (minority not meaning less than half of the people, but the group being victimized primarily), but the supposedly favored class.

In fact, a new term, kyriarchy, has been replacing patriarchy in feminist and other egalitarian circles as a better name for institutionalized oppression, one that can be applied across many societal inequalities. I think it's a better term.

2012-08-14T02:54:41+00:00

We should try to neutralize the term, and replace it with something along the lines of "gender relations system".

That way, there is no automatic presumption that all men are benefitting out of the system ahead of all women. And it also allows us to focus on the fact that any supposedely pure gender based privilege is a drop in the ocean compared to class/economic privilege.

tigalicious · 2012-08-13T16:55:35+00:00

Yes. I think that's exactly where the disconnect is. I'm a feminist visiting this subreddit myself. I find that more and more often, discussions about feminism end up at least mentioning MRA, so I try to keep myself educated about what goes on here so I can discuss it intelligently. And I understand that it won't be a popular thing to say here, but here is my attempt at a logical and personal answer to why we tend to disagree.

Personally, I believe that feminism can work for equality for everybody. It may be an unconsciously biased opinion, but I think it's also understandable that feminism focuses mostly on women's issues, and the main request of male participants is that they listen to and try to understand women's stories of how they feel and what they've been through. I wouldn't try to join the fight for equality between races but demand that, as a white person, we address why people think I can't dance first. Considering the history of slavery and racism, I think it's only fair that before saying anything, I first have to listen to what people of color are trying to tell me about race.

So yeah, feminism works mostly on female issues, but I personally think that if there is already a movement committed to destroying patriarchy and breaking down gender inequality, then it would be more productive to add your voice to it than to start your own. If you consider the fact that it's hard for people to see the flaws in their own movement, it seems at first glance that the only reason to start a new movement that is so against feminism, is because you're against everything feminism stands for. And on a basic level, feminism is against patriarchy and forced gender roles. So it's an easy assumption that you're supporters of patriarchy.

Feminists believe in the existence of the patriarchy because we have to know it to be against it. We're also all flawed humans, and we are a part of our own culture. So we can definitely be caught participating in it. It's a deep, ingrained part of our culture, and it's difficult to see head-on. That's why feminists ask that you care about women's issues, so we can try to explain. That's why we should listen to your issues.

Basically, I still don't identify with MRA because I can't see why we can't be on the same team. If we're all for equality, then we should be able to ignore our respective kooks and work towards it together. You say you have a problem with the fact that feminists aren't more vocal about your issues, but they're your issues. They all fall under the umbrella of gender equality, and if you were talking about them in a respectful way in a feminist forum, then that would be a feminist voice adding to gender equality, wouldn't it?

TL;DR: Yes, feminists think that if you're against them, you must be for the patriarchy. It's reactionary logic, but it's not without it's reasons. We just don't get each other.

AryoBarzan · 2012-08-13T18:11:23+00:00

Probably because MRAs often like to rant about how great the past was when men supposedly invented everything and built civilization all by themselves.

Title	Do feminists think we're proponents of the patriarchy? Is that where the disconnect is?
Author	[deleted]
Upvotes	28
Comments	119
Date	August 13, 2012 4:26 PM UTC (13 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/y5fd3/do_feminists_think_were_proponents_of_the/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/do-feminists-think-were-proponents-of-the.1015949 https://theredarchive.com/post/1015949

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