The elephant in the room that feminists and men’s rights advocates ignore

evileddy · 2010-12-22T14:32:26+00:00

[permanently deleted]

PacoBedejo · 2010-12-22T14:27:18+00:00

False Claim: Consent -> Sex -> Remorse = Rape

True Claim: Force -> Sex = Rape

That's the elephant.

I really don't care if the consent was born from being "fucked up". If you choose to lose control, it doesn't nullify your ability to consent. If I get drunk & buy a car...is that purchase nullified because I was drunk? If you drive through a farmer's market, killing 12 people, are you not guilty because you were drunk?

One consequence of getting drunk/hi/whatever is that you have to live with what you did while you were "out of it".

Hypersapien · 2010-12-22T06:17:13+00:00

This is absolutely true.

thetrollking · 2010-12-22T11:29:08+00:00

Hmm, I don't know about America, and other states of Australia, but under the health program in the NSW curriculum this has to be discussed. Boys are told, just because she's being suggestive, doesn't equal sex. Girls are told, don't lead him on. I think that pretty much summarises the elephant in the room, nobody taking responsibility for the circumstances of rape. Although then you'd get debate over what "leading on" is.

harryballsagna · 2010-12-22T14:49:22+00:00

I liked this article. It had no vitriol for either MRA or Feminists. Personally, I think that this is a good way of dealing with potentially dangerous situations, just like making sure both sexes are responsible for birth control. I don't think it has to be an "us vs them" thing, in the same way that a pre-nup can protect both partners.

Quazz · 2010-12-22T08:09:12+00:00

As far as I know, we never denied a gray area and we never dedicated to either side. At least I haven't.

The only problem is that changes like these take generations. Not exactly something that happens overnight.

Godspiral · 2010-12-22T14:39:47+00:00

We need to start with a little blunt "victim blaming" for both genders.

That's fair.

The real solution has to filter down to police and prosecutors though. Standards such as the complainant being sure (beyond a reasonable doubt) she was assaulted, and vetting likelihood of fabrications both on complainant's part and through police's lurid imaginations embellishing their story for them, and locking them into lies they encourage or make for them.

Because sexual assault charges are serious, all those involved in their prosecution should make sure they happened before charging anyone.

helleborus · 2010-12-22T18:47:46+00:00

How did this get to the top of the Reddit front page with only 32 upvotes?

Fatalistic · 2010-12-22T14:38:15+00:00

The problem is, as far as I know we've never really claimed all are false. We're not like feminists who often say women don't lie and that the "conviction rate needs to go up." We've just claimed you really have to investigate each case before you ruin a man's life and reputation and then throw them into prison. You know, like the "justice" system is supposed to?

serume · 2010-12-22T14:43:01+00:00

Here in Sweden, the Assange accusations has brought the gray area out in the open. It started on twitter, with the tag #prataomdet (talk about it), where those who feel violated can talk about their experiences.

It's fascinating and horrifying how many women do things they don't want to do, because of lack of communication. IMO, that makes them victims of themselves. To then report this to the police creates another victim.

Equally fascinating and horrifying is how many of these women have been woken up by someone trying to penetrate/penetrating them. Consent once given is implied until withdrawn?

djwork · 2010-12-22T02:42:40+00:00

repost of http://www.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/el0uz/feminists_tout_new_report_that_supposedly_shows/

Elesia · 2010-12-22T15:51:45+00:00

This is a good article. Sex plus mind-altering substances = trouble, regardless of plumbing arrangement.

helleborus · 2010-12-22T22:00:13+00:00

I don't know how practical this might be, but maybe we should make standard consent forms available on college campuses. At the dorms whatever. It would be as easy as picking it up and asking the girl to get a pen. I know it probably wouldn't be used in a lot of cases, but being available it might prevent false rape claims.

shimmied_not_stirred · 2010-12-22T22:20:25+00:00

I took a "Race, Gender, and Justice" class for the lulz last year. This came up during one of the lessons and one guy started a bit of an uproar by suggesting that girls should avoid getting really drunk at parties and just hoping that they'll be safe. A couple of the girls started shouting him down and he pretty much ran out of the room and the prof had to go after him.

But of course he was right. If you point out that while no one deserves to get raped, it's smart for them to avoid some major risk factors, you're still apparently guilty of the cardinal sin of "victim-blaming" and the dialogue stops. Personally I find it much more empowering to make responsible decisions instead of hoping that strangers will never take advantage of you... it doesn't really matter what you think ought to happen in some ideal world, we live HERE.

kragshot · 2010-12-23T05:41:56+00:00

I've said it before and I'll say it again;

If you're too drunk to drive, you're too drunk to fuck.

Men, you need to leave drunk women the hell alone. If you're the sober wingman/designated driver, you need to keep your drunk buddy away from drunk chicks. That's the best thing you can do to save your buddy.

I'll say this again for the guys.

Men, you need to leave drunk women the hell alone. If you're the sober wingman/designated driver, you need to keep your drunk buddy away from drunk chicks. That's the best thing you can do to save your buddy.

And in the interest of fairness...

Women, you need to leave drunk men the hell alone. If you're the sober wing-girl/designated driver, you need to keep your drunk girlfriend away from drunk guys. That's the best thing you can do to save your BFF.

I'll say this again for the girls.

Women, you need to leave drunk men the hell alone. If you're the sober wing-girl/designated driver, you need to keep your drunk girlfriend away from drunk guys. That's the best thing you can do to save your BFF.

Drunk hookups are dangerous and life-threatening. The sooner that both genders recognize that, the better off we all will be.

Besides...drunk sex ain't that fun, anyway; it's sloppy, uncontrolled, and somebody usually ends up covered in vomit.

feministtheory · 2010-12-22T11:41:38+00:00

I disagree, at least to some extent.

False rape claims are encouraged by the sexual trade union as a means of deterring young men from casual sex. That's largely the point of it all.

This advice seems to be another case of men's rights supporters playing right into the hands of the feminist conservative agenda.

huntwhales · 2010-12-22T15:02:49+00:00

For feminists rape is a club to beat their opponents over the head. Why would they want rapes to lessen? Indeed, why would they want the wage gap, domestic violence to lessen? That would lessen their influence.

zyk0s · 2010-12-22T15:54:20+00:00

He makes some good points. He is completely right about the fact that for most cases that go to court, it is not possible to show the accused is guilty, nor is it possible to show the accusations are false. He is also right about the fact that statistical evidence for the frequency of rape and false rape accusations are not adequate (he actually doesn't explicitly distinguish statistics from legal cases, but one can read past the text). He is also right about how it is important to educate kids about being carful with excessive drinking and not regretting their actions after.

Where he misses the point, in my opinion, is when he links the legal gray area with misunderstandings. He seems to be making the case that when the courts don't know, "it's often murky even to the participants". That is dishonest. The gray area, the "don't know" zone is exactly this: we don't know. We don't know if there was a rape, if it was intentional or not, or if there was no rape and if the accusation was malicious or not.

PhedreRachelle · 2010-12-22T16:09:51+00:00

I'm sorry but this article was really poorly written. I do support honest education for children, but I don't think that is going to fix the issue. The false rape claims need to be stopped. I think people making false claims should go to jail. They've ruined someone's life while also making it much harder for real victims to get any justice. I don't hate many people, but rapists and those making false rape claims - I hate them, there is anger in my heart that can not be properly expressed in regards to these people. More so even for those making false claims - how could you be so cold and inconsiderate of so many lives?

2010-12-22T05:52:16+00:00

We're sorry, but Men's Rights is a movement that is yet to be taken seriously on any scale that is beyond itself at the moment. Please leave a criticism, and we'll get back to you as soon as any concerns of Men's Rights are recognized; otherwise, feel free to spew bile and accuse us of being woman-hating chauvinist pigs, if you think we give a f~beeeeeeep~

Title	The elephant in the room that feminists and men’s rights advocates ignore
Author	[deleted]
Upvotes	42
Comments	86
Date	December 22, 2010 2:37 AM UTC (15 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/epnz3/the_elephant_in_the_room_that_feminists_and_mens/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/the-elephant-in-the-room-that-feminists-and-mens.1045034 https://theredarchive.com/post/1045034

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