An in depth response that analyzes the draw behind PUA/TRP and even incel communities and why criticisms of them often miss their mark.

Man_of_culture_112 · 2022-01-15T08:32:18+00:00

TL/DR: Progressives shoot themselves in the foot and help create their own enemies.

This is a symptom of the American Left in general, they are too ideological and don't come up with realistic solutions.

Throwawayingaccount · 2022-01-15T12:53:44+00:00

I'd love a general consensus approach to about how much and how soon it is okay to ask for a number, socially acceptable ways to practice this without being problematic, etc.

I'd hate that. It'd be awful, and backfire terribly.

Every time I've seen 'rules about flirting/asking women out', the same damn thing happens.

Attractive men break the rules and are rewarded with a relationship. Unattractive men are punished for breaking the rules. This means it's just rules that ugly people, and people who are unwanted for relationships have to follow.

So... that leads to: Observing that people following the rules are LIKELY to be the sort of person who is undesired, worsening the problem.

Bottom line: Unless the rules are enshrined in such a way, that breaking them is punished and will ruin relationship chances REGARDLESS of the attractiveness of the person asking the other out, then the rules will only serve as a punishment for those who are ugly, AND as a filter, because breaking the rules shows confidence that one is above the rules.

"dating has no quick fixes like this nonsense pickup artist bullshit"

The person who said this clearly does not know about pickup artistry. It's NOT a quick fix. It's hard work. It's not something like combing your hair differently and all of the sudden women will flock over a guy. It's a LOT of little things. The problem is, much of the difficulty is HIDING the other things, so they aren't apparent. It falls into a toupee fallacy.

BloomingBrains · 2022-01-15T05:36:58+00:00

I'd say it's more important to convince men that they don't need a significant other

Doesn't the entire quote I pulled this from justify the idea of increased standards, female selectiveness, or whatever you want to call it? They're complaining that men are frustrated that women don't want them, but then they turn around and basically tell us exactly that? So which is it? We're not paranoid conspiracy theorists if its actually true.

Of course, that's not how the people making this type of argument see things. They see the standards as an incredibly low bar that yes, you're just not able to even pass. How convenient a narrative.

EDIT: Ironically though, I think the whole "You don't need a significant other" point is unintentionally helpful. They're reaching that conclusion from the wrong angle, sure, but a man who learned early to find contentment in loneliness is not the one who will be saying "where have all the good men gone?" later in life. It's also not difficult to accept not needing a significant other when people are constantly proving to you that the type of significant other you want either doesn't exist, or is very rare.

when I ask for help solving it people tell me I'm looking for "some cheatcode to companionship" instead of guidance on a specific problem I'm having. And then treat me like a irredeemable misogynist for having the temerity to not naturally know how to navigate complex social systems immediately and with ease.

I lived this same exact thing for so long on reddit or any other site I travelled to. It was so heart-crushing to experience because at the time I was young and naïve, so I really internalized the hateful accusations that got sent my way and they sent me spiraling into a dark place.

One would think that saying "Hey, women won't say yes to a date with me so I'm worried I might be making them uncomfortable. What can I do to avoid that?" would be met with appreciation and willingness to have a discussion since it would not only benefit men but ultimately women as well. Needless to say, that is not what happened.

Now I'm not saying women should have worshipped the ground that I walked on for asking that. But I am asking why its so hard to simply give someone the benefit of the doubt when it is obvious they genuinely care how women feel and are afraid of being inappropriate to the point where they are willing to walk into a lion's den to get answers?

Even if you're cynically going to say "Telling you might just result in more jerks who simply go through the motions", wouldn't that result in less women out there being made to feel uncomfortable? Is that not a good thing, at least?

No, because it's not really about that at all. What sends the women who respond this way into such a rage state is the fact that by even asking the question, you are proving the problem isn't with you. As some of the women on my posts commented, "If you're even worried about this you're probably naturally considerate enough to not actually do anything creepy in the first place." Sadly, they were in the minority.

When you mercilessly attack and gaslight men with kind souls who genuinely care about women and don't want them to feel uncomfortable, one of two things will eventually happen. Either A) that soul gets ripped apart, causing them to become a hateful and bitter misogynist, or B) they retain their disposition, but become completely dissociated in an effort to protect it.

The A) path is how I believe a lot of men get pushed towards redpill/PUA. They think, "Why should I bother baring my heart and being a sweet guy when its never done me any favors?" They've been taught that if they try, people will only hurt them for it. Nice guys finish last and all that. So if they're going to be called a misogynist/creep/social moron, why not be one of those that gets laid and possibly get to live out a revenge fantasy by pumping and dumping the women who rejected them before? In this way, it is the very same paranoid accusations about men wanting cheat codes for female psychology that pushes men who would otherwise never have gone looking for that into finding and abusing the shit out of them. Not only that, but also the fact that if they simply look around, they will see tons of examples of boorish men for whom these types of concerns don't even register having wild success with women. After all these, PUA is not exactly complicated, and even a monkey could use them to reliably get access to sex if he looked decent.

So is it really any wonder then that we're seeing a prevalence of fuccbois and women saying "where have all the good men gone"? No. They were pushed away for the heinous crime of simply trying to figure out how not to offend you. And making up nasty rumors about them like "they're gross and don't shower" is only digging the well deeper.

Obviously, I am not excusing the behavior of men who do go down this path. I'm merely explaining why it happens. If you treat people like monsters, oftentimes that is what they will become. And I'd also like to make it clear that not all women do this. In my experience it does seem to be a majority, but certainly not all, as I noted previously.

throwinsilaway · 2022-01-15T05:49:11+00:00

This is a 6 part story of my life as it involves romance.

Part 1: The nothing zone

The friendzone is when you ask someone out and want to or do love them, but they just want to be friends.

I have entered something much much worse many times before, that I call the nothing zone. It's when after asking them out, they want nothing to do with you after previously being friends.

I was friends with a girl, and after asking them out they completely avoided me. The first time I asked someone out I was really nervous about it because I wasn't sure if I should do it in person alone, with people around, or what. Both of those I'd heard were problematic because it can pressure them to say yes either because alone is vulnerable, and with friends around can pressure to not say no because of humiliation aspect. Asking out over a phone is seen as weak, but I didn't see a way to do that without harassing my friend so I texted them out one night, something normal similar to "Yknow I like you, how about a date?"

I had no idea the response I would get. I waited. We really liked each other and thought surely she'd give me the shot.

I got no response, in fact I got blocked on snapchat. What the hell happened? I would ask her in gym class the next day, but she wouldn't look at me. Mutual friends close to her avoided me too, and some other mutual friends I noticed a different dynamic with. And socially speaking, I couldn't hang out with them if they were with her too. "The worst that could happen is she says no" turned out to be one of the biggest lies I'd believed.

Do you know how hard it is for me to ask someone out after that? I didn't for a long time. I've tried Tinder (and more) on and off, but 1000s of women later and not a single one wanted to give me any chance. I tried many different bios, picture quality, picture type. Nothing worked. The best I had were brick walls to talk to, and like 2 planned dates that I got ghosted for.

I did mention certain sexual qualities I have at some point and had opportunity to get some action, but that isn't the type of bio that gets a long term relationship and I ended up rejecting some offers, as well as missing some that came in the middle of the night. End result was nothing. Who knows if I wouldn't just get ghosted anyway. A lot of sexual harassment/spam from people pushing premium snapchat and onlyfans type stuff, too.

Over the course of years, I've asked out more of my friends. But unfortunately a similar story has happened many times. At least 5 different friends I've asked out (mostly in college) would do this to me. These women, friends of mine, found it so wrong for me to even ask them out that I had to be completely avoided. People I had been friends with for months or years. It's about half of the friends I've asked out that have done this to me. Good friends before that, too.

Making friends is not a problem for me, or I wouldn't even have so many friends I developed feelings for and asked out in the first place. The problem is I want love but it seems I am disallowed from it.

Part 2: My qualities

Let's take a look at ways I am conventionally attractive. Some I will explain some I will just claim.

Tall, 6ft1
Strong, with regular working out and general fit ability
Smart, I am currently a PhD student in a STEM field and have some related accolades. I've even been described as a polymath before, taking an interest and developing deep thoughts in multiple subjects.
Funny, known as class clown and always good talking with people getting a laugh out of them
Communicative
Observant
Helpful
White+Blue eyes
Clean
Personable

Additionally, there are some good sexual qualities that others will not know about and I am not allowed to ever discuss because I fear of sexual harassment and such

Big cock (top 2% in thickness and length both, according to resources available at r/ bigdickproblems)
Multicummer, big distance+volume cumshots
Want to eat pussy, care about sexually pleasing partner

What about bad qualities?

I'm fat (obese) I don't have much flexibility, physically
Only very recently, my hairs started thinning
My facial hair is patchy and doesn't grow much on the front of my face. Usually I stay clean or short shaved.

What about mixed qualities?

I'm agnostic
Don't drink, smoke, or do other drugs
I push to reasonably better yourself
My fashion consists of gym wear, mostly. I'd like a partner who also wears gym wear and we do physical stuff together often. Note this is absolutely not a requirement for them. I am almost always down to play volleyball, wiffleball, or some other sport, so I dress for the occasion
I don't go to concerts nor beaches
Some ADHD and autistic tendencies. (I certainly have ADHD and probably no autism. Though, some people think I do) I save money instead of driving, and can be cheap elsewhere too

On that last note, I have another quality but it also isn't ones others know about for reasons that will be obvious:

I've turned very small amounts of money (initially $150, later added $500 more) into 100s of thousands which has started my retirement savings and paid for college. This ties into my general intelligence and related abilities leads to me making good predictions about the future and investing in bitcoin, ethereum, AMD, nintendo, activision, the economy/covid (predicting the crash first, and the bull market thereafter), GME, and maybe a few that I'm missing. Everything has been a hit when I seriously believe it, along with a recent miss or two when I had nothing to believe in but decided to keep doing some investments. I entirely plan on becoming a millionaire and maybe even billionaire in the future. I absolutely do not want someone who dates me for my money. Also I would in fact already be a multimillionaire if I had been allowed to invest money when I was under 18, because of how cheap bitcoin used to be. (I'm currently 23)

I also donate probably more money than most of my peers, but do not make great public discussion of it.

(Comment 1/2)

Mr-X1 · 2022-01-15T05:58:43+00:00

One of the real powerful things that pickup artist snake oil provides

While there is some amount of trash out there, lots of outdated, age specific and culture specific stuff too, the truth is a lot of the stuff preached especially back then easily works. Probably because humans are, as a group, clearly predictable in certain ways.

I also find it quite telling that advice for males with regards to dating is maligned so much, and that its usefulness is played down so much, when women's and girl's magazines are full of their own equivalent, when MANY women are obsessed with image management, when they very often share soooo much advice and knowledge on this matter, a huge amount of which is not any less manipulative or sexist or whatever than the "worst" of pick up or red pill advice.

Of course the RP/PUA approach is to just disregard the counterparty in the discussion and be maximally selfish,

Says who? There are tons of approaches out there, many of which do not advocate being a totally unaware idiot. Men are not helped by people parroting this bullshit.

So we're stuck in meaningless platitudes like "just treat her like a human being"

I always thought that this platitude is moronic. If you have any amount of people skills you calibrate how you deal with various individuals, "even" if they are of the same sex and gender. And indeed, there are very significant differences too between the sexes and genders. Especially treating women like they are just other guys does not work at all and will cost you a lot socially.

From that other user.

I'd say it's more important to convince men that they don't need a significant other, because a lot of them just aren't great enough to choose over being single

"Great enough". That user is probably a woman or a Feminist. Generally speaking, talking to members of these groups about this topic does not lead to anything fruitful. There is no empathy, sympathy, and often no relevant knowledge either, which is often held to be non-existent, to be found there.

From that other user:

But how do you convince someone you are a person you want to be around if you aren't actually someone they want to be around?

For those not too disadvantaged it is most important to work on being generally more "appealing" (physically, mentally, etc with an eye towards what is actually observably appealing), and "men" should also stop fixating on any specific individual. That alone is something that gives a lot of social power to women, who both tend to take men doing this for granted unless said men are physically very attractive or have a certain reputation, and who also strongly tend to NOT behave like this themselves. If you work on that, the rest becomes a numbers a game, "exposing yourself" to more people and gaining relevant experiences. Of course, for some people the effort involved might just not be worth it.

but when I ask for help solving it people tell me I'm looking for "some cheatcode to companionship" instead of guidance on a specific problem I'm having.

Because people do not like talking about these issues because of what else comes up, including many unsavory truths some of which are also of the kind that women generally would rather not have you know. Also, many people, especially men, are rather clueless, relying more on instinct, intuition and happenstance. The vast majority of women on the other hand not only do not know how it is to be a man, especially not how it is to not be particularly attractive in the way a man who is not particularly attractive is not particularly attractive, their in-group bias also causes them to not want to really help men anyways.

I have seen MANY women and even girls, but especially women, online and offline, give "very bad advice" to men that was clearly intended to only help the woman and not the man seeking the advice. Sometimes even when they knew the man for years, while not knowing the woman at all. I have even seen a mother do this to their very own son. And online you can also see a decent amount of women who go into dating subreddits gaslighting people while their own profile history clearly proves that they are lying.

Men need to take these aspects of social reality into account.

There are mechanical components to this

One could easily argue that this process is completely mechanical, just like with other animals. It is just epistemically messy.

. It is better for everyone that this happen at a reasonably early point,

There is a reason this is often not happening, and that is because it is often not in the woman's strategic interest.

From that other user:

they have poor social skills, etc. so they try to find some cheatcode to companionship

Ultimately much of what we call people skills can be boiled down to a few fuzzy routines plus empathy (not talking about sympathy though it can be helpful too), the former of which you will have learned early in life if you are neuro-typical enough while either/and/or having a knack for this stuff, good role models around (!) or you were just lucky enough for the right stuff to happen in your vicinity.

When every other major social ill has a systemic root that we try to fix from multiple angles, but the answer for lonely men is man up and stop being a bitch that seems a little hypocritical doesn't it?

There are tons of social issues for various groups that "progressives" do not give a shit about or which they even foster. So this is just to be expected.

Edit:

Why not embrace it and go to the side that will actually try and help you with your personal issues?

What do you think the average woman would do in such a situation? Oh yes. They would make the "selfish" choice (the equivalent of such advice for men is mainstream, and Feminism is also quite telling a phenomenon).

So there is no need for men to avoid looking at this stuff. Instead they should go and see if some of it is helpful (especially some of the older material). Of course, there is no good quality control and lots of cringy and tradcon bs is in there too. So anyone wanting to do this has to use their brain.

MrElderwood · 2022-01-15T02:38:40+00:00

Wow! All those words and none of them explicitly explain what either PUA or TRP stand for!
I 'assume' that PUA is 'Pick Up Artist'? WTF is TRP?
Perhaps help out the uninitiated? Especially if you are going to use them in the title!

I find it difficult to bother reading anything this long if I have no clear idea as to what the abbreviations mean.

Zinziberruderalis · 2022-01-15T03:14:34+00:00

The guidance and norms the poster wants will never exist under free dating (as opposed to pre-modern systems where the process was guided by parents or professionals). There's simply no authority to set such rules, and the participants themselves will, out of a combination of naivete and myopic self-interest, always propose rules that are unworkable.

RhinoNomad · 2022-01-15T03:20:04+00:00

Well, this is great, but what is some helpful male-centered, non-misogynistic advice that you can give to men who struggle with dating?

omegaphallic · 2022-01-15T14:44:07+00:00

There is nothing wrong with being a PUA, but it's not a quick fix, like any art form it takes dedication and hard work to prefect.

An in depth response that analyzes the draw behind PUA/TRP and even incel communities and why criticisms of them often miss their mark.

Comments

Part 1: The nothing zone

Part 2: My qualities

Part 3: Childhood and fatness

Part 4: More rejections

Part 5: Attempts at bisexuality

Part 6: Loneliness, socially unaccepted

Title	An in depth response that analyzes the draw behind PUA/TRP and even incel communities and why criticisms of them often miss their mark.
Author	Forgetaboutthelonely
Upvotes	76
Comments	65
Date	January 15, 2022 1:21 AM UTC (4 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates/comments/s486bd/an_in_depth_response_that_analyzes_the_draw/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates/an-in-depth-response-that-analyzes-the-draw-behind.1096163 https://theredarchive.com/post/1096163